hopes, dreams, and fears for sisters in 8th

[Drider]

Nah, i'd disagree. i think the name of the game especially for us is still going to be MSU special/heavy weapon spam and at this rate everybody bar 2 sisters in each BSS squad is going to be packing a special/heavy weapon.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Lol.

 

I get the feeling we'll be seeing more full squads of units and not as many of the min sizes, with the new edition. If nothing else to help act as wounds buffer for the morale phase.

 

I'm not really sure I agree with that. The thing about Battleshock is that it rarely gets many opportunities to affect small units and that by their very nature, and in the absence of external penalties, their losses are either minimal or total. The absolute worst case scenario facing a five-model unit at Leadership 7 is that they suffer three casualties in a single turn and then roll a six for Battleshock, losing the remaining two models to the test. In no other circumstance can they lose more than a single model to Battleshock on their base Leadership. Small units tend to either die the old fashioned way before Battleshock has a chance to clean up or to pass their first test and essentially become immune to morale beyond that point (unless suffering two casualties on two separate turns).

 

Obviously there are a lot of factors that will determine the most effective direction, but I'm more inclined to think we'll value the classic MSU and ability to take multiple special/heavy weapons in a cost-effective package over lessening the effect of Battleshock on units that tend to melt away quickly under focus fire even without bringing morale into the picture. I'm sure that larger units will have a place and that anything looking to reach close combat is certainly going to want to pad its numbers against morale, but I can't help but think that Sisters are still going to favour smaller units unless 8th brings in some new aura buffs or options that give a notable advantage to bigger units.

 

Edit: I'm wondering if it's worth taking six models in a small unit. It's hardly a big investment, and they'll still fit in an Immolator, but that way you both have one more ablative shield for your special weapons and make it so that they'll both survive 5/6 three-casualty Battleshock tests so long as it's their unit's first of the game. Food for thought.

[Drider]

Indeed.  

 

it's going to  be the classic MSU with a few exceptions, any units that you actually want to get into melee on you're terms you are going to want to be maxed, repentia, DCAs arcos, crusaders, Seraphim(although the jury is still out on them). Penitents you are probably going to want to take as single models rather than squads to increase the chances for as many as possible to make it into combat.

 

If you consider the new IC mechanics, classic death stars are dead but you're still going to see things like buff ICs sitting inside a bubble wrap. Even in that case for us if there is an IC you want to keep alive from shooting, bubble wrap it with MSU because excess wounds are wasted.

[Servant of Dante]

There are few things more satisfying than a 20 Sister BSS all firing at the same target :P

But yeah msu looks to still be the way to go in terms of special/heavy weapons units from what I've seen so far

[Drider]

a 20 girl squad may still have it's place as an anchor or tar pit, as much as anything can be tar pitted with everyone just leaving combat when ever they want. We'll really have to see how priests end up in newhammer.

[Servant of Dante]

I mean, the only 3 things I'm sure I'll run are 20 stron BSSs, maxed units of Seraphim, and Canoness Raedia :P

 

Even if they're getting outperformed by an equal point value of grots :D

[Atrus]

My concern with MSU is that while heavy and special is available to them, these weapons don't seem to be as effective as they are in the current edition- now they can jump out an immo and lay down some serious hurt an a squad that may very well get no save. In 8th, these targets now get to not only have a save but an improved save. Are MSU going to have the output in 8th to deal with this new dynamic?

[Commander Dawnstar]

I mean ... if they're not then our army as a whole is in a bit of a bad spot, isn't it?

 

Once you get beyond our heavy and special weapons we essentially have Exorcists, Bolters (which are weaker against infantry in 8th), Celestine and the desperate hope that our underutilised melee units will be decent. Blob squads are probably going to be a little bit more difficult to kill off in an edition without templates, but outside of their new-found ability to fish for 6s against hard targets it's hard to imagine them being notably more threatening than they are now either.

[Atrus]

Yes, Celestine, speaking of her, isn't she an interesting egg now. With units able to retreat from combat now, methinks she's going to feel a bit of sting now. Well at least with her current stats.

 

Dag nabbit GW! Bloody give us the full monty already.

 

Well it looks like most of our questions are answered regarding weapons at least. All thats left is to see the rules for sisters at launch...this is going to be an agonising wait.

[Sanul]

The problem with 20 man sister squads is the new moral phase. Lets have an example: Enemy shoots at the sister unit until he killed 7 sisters. So now you are guaranteed to lose another D6 sisters that run away in the moral phase. But any sister beyond the 7th he kills counts as two dead sisters now. So any big group of sisters is losing members quite fast...

 

So lets say your opponent shoots at your unit and kills 10 out of 20 sisters. At the moral phase you throw a dice and its a 3. Now you lose another 6 sisters that run away and your unit has 4 sisters left.

 

This is assuming the new moral phase works exactly like in Age of Sigmar and the sisters have a moral value of 7: in the moral phase you throw a dice and lose n models, where n="total number of models lost in the current round" + D6 - "moral value".

[Noeh]

Yes, Celestine, speaking of her, isn't she an interesting egg now. With units able to retreat from combat now, methinks she's going to feel a bit of sting now. Well at least with her current stats.

 

Dag nabbit GW! Bloody give us the full monty already.

 

Well it looks like most of our questions are answered regarding weapons at least. All thats left is to see the rules for sisters at launch...this is going to be an agonising wait.

 

I welcome anything that runs from Celestine and a group of seraphim sisters. That means they retreated and now don't get to shoot or charge the next turn...which they 9/10 times won't be able to outrun the jetpack girls who will charge in anew and go first once more. Pack a few small squads of Seraphim up tight to Celestine, give all the superiors lances, and just watch the enemy bleeeeed.

[BlISSP]

Well , with the new warhammer article , we can see that the force axe is not anymore "unwieldy" , but the axe is less powerfull than now . . . 

 

So , maybe some unwieldy weapons will get nerfed too, to match this , like power gauntlet , eviscerator, etc.  . .but they can now strike first , wich is a pretty big deal

[Servant of Dante]

I hope the Evicerator doesn't get nerfed: Sx2 AP2 is barely adequate for making my Canoness work in close combat :D

[A.T.]

So , maybe some unwieldy weapons will get nerfed too, to match this , like power gauntlet , eviscerator, etc.  . .but they can now strike first , wich is a pretty big deal

 

Is 'strikes last' something that happens in AoS?

[Servant of Dante]

 

The data sheets look nice, and I like how the power weapon types compare now (I assume the power variants will be the same but only 1 damage). A sword cuts better than an axe, but Toughness works better against the sword. Now it's not just a matter of "do I want to be better, or strike at Initiative?"

[Banjulhu]

Well , with the new warhammer article , we can see that the force axe is not anymore "unwieldy" , but the axe is less powerfull than now . . . 

 

So , maybe some unwieldy weapons will get nerfed too, to match this , like power gauntlet , eviscerator, etc.  . .but they can now strike first , wich is a pretty big deal

In the hands of a marine (the only WS we are sure of) vs another marine the Axe is slightly better as each attack has a 30% chance to cause at unsaved damage over the swords 28%. Against Guard and Eldar Guardians etc (T3 and 5+ Sv) the sword and axe are equal. Against Sisters T3 and 3+ Sv the sword is better. Sameis true for the T3 and 4+ Sv crowd.

[Commander Dawnstar]

So , maybe some unwieldy weapons will get nerfed too, to match this , like power gauntlet , eviscerator, etc. . .but they can now strike first , wich is a pretty big deal

Is 'strikes last' something that happens in AoS?

Nope. AoS, and now 40k, is based on alternating unit activation, so the whole unit strikes at the same time regardless of what they're armed with.

I hope the Evicerator doesn't get nerfed: Sx2 AP2 is barely adequate for making my Canoness work in close combat

It's certainly going to be worse in some regards. If the Eviscerator keeps Strength x2 then she's going to have a harder time wounding Space Marines and vehicles and they'll probably get a 6+ save against her attacks to boot. I wouldn't be surprised if it does D3 or D6 wounds though, making her a bit of a terror against multi-wound targets, and she should get more chances to make an impact with it now that Unwieldy has been thrown out.

Bit of a mixed bag, I'd hazard.

[micahwc]

I'm assuming the Evicerator has some good armor penetration, as it is described in fluff as specifically designed to cut through armor. I could see them doing D3 or even 1 wound, but being AP4. Cuts through power armor automatically, and usually cuts through terminator armor.

 

Seraphim getting to charge back into combat after an enemy retreats will be a lot of fun, but marine/chaos assault squads will have the same ability.

 

I wonder if you can move your units through your own models? If you can, then you could retreat from close combat through an allied gun line, and then the gun line could fire.

 

Whatever happens, I'm pretty excited for 40K for the first time in a while. I'll buy whatever box set they release and hopefully get some friends to play. I haven't played a game of 40k since around 1998, despite collecting several armies in that time. Mostly I haven't played because I've lived in places where there wasn't really any community to play with.

[Voldrak]

The problem with 20 man sister squads is the new moral phase. Lets have an example: Enemy shoots at the sister unit until he killed 7 sisters. So now you are guaranteed to lose another D6 sisters that run away in the moral phase. But any sister beyond the 7th he kills counts as two dead sisters now. So any big group of sisters is losing members quite fast...

 

So lets say your opponent shoots at your unit and kills 10 out of 20 sisters. At the moral phase you throw a dice and its a 3. Now you lose another 6 sisters that run away and your unit has 4 sisters left.

 

This is assuming the new moral phase works exactly like in Age of Sigmar and the sisters have a moral value of 7: in the moral phase you throw a dice and lose n models, where n="total number of models lost in the current round" + D6 - "moral value".

 

 

We're missing some details from the rules overall, but let's work with what we have.

 

If you have 20 sisters, they're not going to be in a transport. You're likely going to have them in cover protecting an objective or moving them up throught terrain. As such they will have a 2+ save from the cover bonus (assuming they keep their 3+ power armor save.)

 

Now let's say some marines are trying to kill those 7 using their bolters only (they are shooting their big guns are juicier targets).

 

Hit on 3s, wound on 3s, armor saves of 2+. You need 100 bolter shots into that squad to take down 7 sisters sitting in cover, If someone is wasting 100 marine bolters on a single sister squad, thats a good tradeoff in my book. 

 

The following leadership check would hurt for sure, but we don't know yet if we gain leadership bonus for large squads like in AoS (which may very well be possible to encourage large groups). Priests, Canoness and / or Celestine are all very likely going to impact leadership on surrounding sisters as well.

 

 

Let's play with a crazy scenario just for fun using the points we have rigth now in 7th Ed. 

 

10 sternguards. All combi flamers coming in a drop pod to give them a chance to use flamers. - 355pts

20 sisters. Flamer, Heavy Flamer and CombiFlamer still in that cover. - 265pts

 

Now I am assuming this profile for heavy flamer (d6 auto hits, str5, rend -1) which seems in line with what we've seen so far.

 

Sternguards arrive, assuming they land where they want.

 

10d6 combi-flamer auto-hits, wound on 3s, 2+ save

20 combi-boltgun shots hit on 4s, wound on 3s, 2+ save.

 

3.69 wounds from the flamers

1.05 wounds from the bolters

 

Rounding everything up, 6 dead sisters on the sternguards arrival. Leadership test for sisters (assuming base 7) they lose another 3.

 

Sisters turn. 11 of them left

 

1d6 heavy flamer shot - 1.15 / 0.76

1d6 flamer shot - 0.57 / 0.28

1d6 combi-flamer shot 0.57 / 0.28

2 combi-bolter shot 0.17 / 0.08

16 bolter shot 1.74 / 0.84

 

 

Marines didnt make it in cover on coming down:

 

2.29 wounds from the flamers

1.91 wounds from the bolters

 

Rounding it up, 5 dead marines. Leadership 7 means 2 more dead marine so 3 of them left.

 

 

Marines made it to cover on coming down:

 

1.32 wounds from the flamers

0.92 wounds from the bolters

 

Rounding it up, 3 dead marines and they are fine with the leadership phase. 7 of them left.

 

 

Conclusion:

 

20 sisters are going to be fine dealing with what is coming their way in this next edition. You will have to either dedicate heavy weaponry to deal with them quickly or invest many more points than their actual worth. Either scenario should be in your favor. Oh and cover is super important for infantry, if you're not playing to be in cover, you're doing something wrong.

[Eddie Orlock]

Thing about the Score of Sisters Squad is that it's relative value may depend on how many command points you have available to buff it up. One Large Block may have value in the context of a number of MSU's if we wind up with Command Point powers like 'selected unit shoots twice' or 'selected unit strikes first in combat'. The OLB becomes a key thing to use the points on for greatest effect.

 

I just hope that mu cannoness can eventually get her jump pack back.

[A.T.]

20 sisters are going to be fine dealing with what is coming their way in this next edition.

 

The question at hand I think is whether you'd be better off with four lots of five.

Same number of sisters, less losses from moral - at least what little we know of the system so far.

 

 

(though as an aside you were also pretty generous with that comparison. 20 sisters are hard to cram into area cover... perhaps easier now there are no templates so no reason to split them up. Out of cover it's half the squad dead to shooting and 6-7 to moral - three survivors, assuming the marines don't step it up with a chapter tactic)

[Eddie Orlock]

20 sisters are hard to cram into area cover ...

What tables with tiny area terrain templates do you play on?

 

In eighth, especially given the removal of templates, it's an almost trivial problem to cram a score of sisters into a crater. To grind a little geometry here, if we allocate each girl 1 square inch of template for her very own, conservative given that you can array a 25mm diameter base more efficiently than that, you only need 20 square inches to protect the whole unit. That's a tiny 4"x5" rubble template. Should be able to pack them fairly easily onto a 6" diameter circle, especially if we allow the base edge to only partially overlap the terrain. The standard citadel wood is plenty large enough, and is probably a good example of the manufacturers intended usage.

[BitsHammer]

Without a proper update to the army I feel like the places were we'll be banking on improvements will be:

 

+ Acts of Faith: If these don't give the army a reasonable, tactical buff then we're likely going to be on the weaker end of the scale.

+ Shield of Faith: We're likely to keep the ability to deny witches, but unless this lets us to shrug off Mortal Wounds I feel like we're going to, again, end up on the weaker end of the scale.

+ Points Costs: If we're more expensive than the base cost of a Space Marine Scout without a signifigant upgrade (especially since our entire army likely is M5 meaning we're slower to get into the fight, re-position and generally get out of trouble) we're going to be in some trouble.

 

Celestine is likely to murder all kinds of face, but that's not enough to carry an army.

[Ficinus]

If Shield of Faith acts like the Death faction thing in AoS where everyone gets a 6+ save against all wounds suffered (including mortal wounds) after taking their base save, that would be very good.

[Eddie Orlock]

I think if we review the historical dynamism of the Faith and Rites rules I think we can find enough inconsistency in implementation to make a strong expectation of future rules based solely on those specific prior rules feel like folly.

 

I suspect the new faith will get tied into the new 'flavour of the edition' mechanic and will just be a set of super powerful Command Point abilities that requires the 'Adapta Sororita' keyword to get full value out of. By using a mechanic they've already promised to implement to as the generalised repository of 'cool faction effects' it saves them the effort of creating truly bespoke special sauce for the sisters and lets them show off just how flexible their new 'special effects' army flavouring system is.

 

Also, there was a quiet bit in the datasheets article about the sons either being troops or elite depending on which keyword was selected to make them eligible for the force. Carries an implication to me that cross breeding our detachments with other Imperial forces to cover off certain weaknesses may be a viable concept. It may produce an effect similar to the old WitchHunters book with all its inductions. Have your friendly Inquisitor lend out his Land Raider Crusader to your Repentia who can start embarked because they both have the 'Imperial' keyword to mark an allegiance?