hopes, dreams, and fears for sisters in 8th

[asianavatar]

I don't get the Heavy Flamer complaint, it auto-hits so it shouldn't be an issue?

 

 

Not really an issue. The hand flamers are kind of an issue though. It was easy last edition to get over 3 hits on a hand flamer. Now we aren't going to get that. It doesn't effect the heavy flamers as much because they were much harder to position in a unit to get maximum coverage.

[Ficinus]

Also from Dakka:

"Via Facebook (IDK if said yet)

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.""

 

So the Repentia, Mistress, and Penitent Engines don't have to pay for their weapons by the looks.

And a 55 point Penitent Engine fits the power level they gave it.

There was apparently a tweet that said that was false (it was mentioned in the Points Discussion thread in the 8th Ed discussion subboard).

 

It also doesn't make sense because why have points for the Penitent Engines blades if no other unit can take them. The Repentia might not have to pay because the price just might be for the Canonness and Priest's eviscerators (which have a different profile and name from the Repentia's).

[A.T.]

 

Also from Dakka:

"Via Facebook (IDK if said yet) 

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.""

 

So the Repentia, Mistress, and Penitent Engines don't have to pay for their weapons by the looks.

 

This was my reading of the book also. (and how my spreadsheet works) The guy that did the initial text dump on Sisters just... was full of rage.

 

 

Pete Foley has nixed this -https://twitter.com/geekjockpete/status/869606848349057024

 

You must pay for all weapons

 

So penitents need 2 heavy flamers and their blades on their cost, the immolator needs its flamer, even the rhino needs extra points for its stormbolter.

 

The repentia have a different kind of eviscerator though - cost unknown. Also true of the death cultists power blades, the crusaders, storm shields, the arco flails, etc.

 

The sisters squads will also probably all go up in price once the full costs - and the superiors - are leaked/released.

[Noeh]

I guess we'll have to see how that works out then. Penitent Engines are going to be insanely expensive per model at that rate.

[A.T.]

I guess we'll have to see how that works out then. Penitent Engines are going to be insanely expensive per model at that rate.

 

129 points.

 

The closest comparable model i've seen mentioned around is the carnifex at 100pts with crushing claws and bio plasma

M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+

Causes a mortal wound on a 4+ when it charges. Crushing claws give it 4 (possibly 5) strength 12 AP -3 Damage 3 attacks

 

Also suggested that at 140pts old one eye comes in with WD3+ to himself and all fexes within 6", has a d3 mortal wound charge, and generates extra attacks with each hit.

[Commisarp]

The original leaker said " if weapon isn't mentioned it's points cost is 0" so we can assume that things like the repentia eviscerators, the cultists blades etc are free.

Have updated my spreadsheet to account for weapons costs that we know about.

My word, this is a bizzare way to write a book.

Exactly how late in the process did they decide they needed to point match play points in the game?

[Noeh]

I get the feeling they split weapons from the equation so they could fine tune those points too. But once 8th goes out they'll have an actual Sisters player base testing the rules and some points may go down. They'll find out quickly how many units aren't being used because of how ridiculous they costed them.

[taikishi]

 

 

Honestly? These rules leave me even less enthused about 8th than before. There isn't a single piece of silver lining:

 

BSS max size cut

Loss of command squads

Non-scaling AoF

Shoehorned into a specific detachment in order to field enough elites to make AoF worthwhile (this one irks me more than anything else)

Heavy Flamer now Heavy

Even harder to Deny the Witch through SoF than before

Penitent Engines even more expensive

Eviscerators same cost as Marine eviscerators at lower Str

Acts of Faith themselves seem rather uninspiring outside of Divine Guidance

Massive cost increase for immolators (132 pts for TLMM)

I don't get the Heavy Flamer complaint, it auto-hits so it shouldn't be an issue?

As assault weapons which is what they've been since 2nd edition you can advance and still fire them

[Eddie Orlock]

So, I re-ground the numbers for exorcist vs. rhino based on the Natfka leak profiles. Figured I'd bury it in this thread rather than post-script the previous thread on the subject.

If firing while stationary.

Shooting on the move.

[Servant of Dante]

I think the points are done that way so they don't have to tell us how much a twin-linked lascannon upgrade costs on a Dreadnought and a razorback separately, they just give 1 cost for the twin-linked lascanon. Makes the number of point values they have to list much smaller.

 

At least, that's the way I look at it. I kinda like it.

[Servant of Dante]

Just realized that if I want even 3 command points from 1 detachment I have to take 2 HQs. And I won't take special characters most of the time, and the Order of the Glorious Reprisal is far too small to have 2 Canonesses. The closest it comes is that the senior Seraphim Superior is the Canoness's second in command, but the Canoness can't take a jump pack in the rules, so that won't work. I could run Veteran Superior Margrettia using the Canoness I guess, she has enough experience. Oh well.

[sedibear]

Based on Blood Angels there are some models that have pts including wargear and some with pts not including wargear so it's better to wait for the whole shebang.

 

Lots of stuff got recosted anyway better not to evaluate in the context of points values from 7th.

[Commisarp]

Found on TG, confirming points costs.

http://i.4cdn.org/tg/1496184579901.jpghttp://i.4cdn.org/tg/1496184954435.jpg

http://i.4cdn.org/tg/1496185071564.jpg

[Banjulhu]

So we can all but confirm a Dreadnought (70) with close combat weapon (40), assault cannon (21), and heavy flamer (17) clocks in at 148pts, whilste a Penitent Engine (55) with its close combat weapon (40) and 2 heavy flamers (34) comes in at 129pts.

So for 19 extra points a dread gets +1 strength (knocking it to 12 in melee), +1 toughness, an extra wound and a better armour save, the penitant engine gets 1" extra movement, re-rolls in the 1st round of melee and a 50/50 chace to double attacks.

That seems totally fair.

It does seem that our army was mostly just thrown together without much thought as to how it would actually work.

[Servant of Dante]

So we can all but confirm a Dreadnought (70) with close combat weapon (40), assault cannon (21), and heavy flamer (17) clocks in at 148pts, whilste a Penitent Engine (55) with its close combat weapon (40) and 2 heavy flamers (34) comes in at 129pts.

 

So for 19 extra points a dread gets +1 strength (knocking it to 12 in melee), +1 toughness, an extra wound and a better armour save, the penitant engine gets 1" extra movement, re-rolls in the 1st round of melee and a 50/50 chace to double attacks.

 

That seems totally fair.

 

It does seem that our army was mostly just thrown together without much thought as to how it would actually work.

I prefer not to be overly negative, but, business as usual? :)

[Beams]

So we can all but confirm a Dreadnought (70) with close combat weapon (40), assault cannon (21), and heavy flamer (17) clocks in at 148pts, whilste a Penitent Engine (55) with its close combat weapon (40) and 2 heavy flamers (34) comes in at 129pts.

So for 19 extra points a dread gets +1 strength (knocking it to 12 in melee), +1 toughness, an extra wound and a better armour save, the penitant engine gets 1" extra movement, re-rolls in the 1st round of melee and a 50/50 chace to double attacks.

That seems totally fair.

It does seem that our army was mostly just thrown together without much thought as to how it would actually work.

I prefer not to be overly negative, but, business as usual?

That 50% chance (75% if your willing to burn a command point) to pile in and attack again does seem really powerful. I mean, 3 Penitent Engines charging, attacking and then piling in further and attacking again, I mean, that's going to be intense.

And two-heavy flamers doesn't seem bad.

Sure, it seems a little expensive for what you get, but hey, when haven't we had to deal with that?

[ValourousHeart]

Everything so far has shown that GW is trying to make this game more simple and easy.

Having to itemize down to the color of the shoelaces, does not sound like it will be easier.

It is far more likely that the models will come standard with somethings built into the cost, than it is that you will have to cost out the frag and krak grenades separately from the marines who don't have the option not to take them.

 

Honestly? These rules leave me even less enthused about 8th than before. There isn't a single piece of silver lining:

 

BSS max size cut

Loss of command squads

Non-scaling AoF

Shoehorned into a specific detachment in order to field enough elites to make AoF worthwhile (this one irks me more than anything else)

Heavy Flamer now Heavy

Even harder to Deny the Witch through SoF than before

Penitent Engines even more expensive

Eviscerators same cost as Marine eviscerators at lower Str

Acts of Faith themselves seem rather uninspiring outside of Divine Guidance

Massive cost increase for immolators (132 pts for TLMM)

 

I think you might have come to the wrong conclusion on a few of these points.  Here is my POV, to hopefully give you a better outlook at the upcoming changes. 

 

We didn't lose the command squad, GW simply changed how characters interact with squads.  That said I will miss the option to take 5 heavy bolters in a squad, but I can accept the fact that I was not necessarily playing the unit the way GW intended.  The purpose of the command squad in previous editions was not to give us access to the apoth, dialog and banner.  In the new edition we still have all of those options.  And what is better is that those models are able to benefit more than a single squad at a time.

 

Consider this, the background for my sisters army is they are a hospitalor order that was previously assigned to the prison world in the Cadian system (you know before everything hit the fan).  Previously I could never field my list as a minor order... now I can.  I had bought several hospitalor models so that I could have one in each squad.... I was happy to just have the models... but now I can have the rules too... sweet!!!

 

The second aspect of the command squad was to give ablative wounds to a Cannoness.   Well the Cel Squad now does that for us.  If they are in range of a character, and the IC takes the wound for what ever reason, one of those girls can take the hit for the IC.

 

I don't understand the comment that AOF do not scale. You get 1 standard (2+), plus 1 for Celestine (auto), and an additional plus 1 per Imigifyer (4+).  AOF scale with imigifyers, take more get more.  The real issue is that since sisters were expensive cost wise, and in previous editions imigifyers opened you up to the risk of not being able to use your once per game AOF at all, most of the community avoided them.  Personally I would take the imigifyer/banner model in every squad just for the look that it brought to the table even if I didn't use the models for anything other than a bolter sisters.

 

You could argue that every list is shoehorned into a specific formation.  Or you could take the positive spin and be grateful that there is a formation for the list you want to take.  My space marine collection only includes Ravenwing and Dreadnoughts.  Should I be upset that I have to take the fast attack formation, or should I be happy that I can take the fast attack formation?   Deathwing players have not been able to play a pure Deathwing army for a couple editions now, and even when they could it wasn't very strong.  Now Deathwing players have a formation that lets them play the army they want to play.  Should they be angry about it?  Or did GW listen and give them what they wanted?

 

From what I have seen, the different formation are all based on a simple formula.  A small can do anything, a large can do anything, and multiple versions of a basic formation each that allow you to focus on one section of the force org.  There may be more formations that create different themes that we haven't seen yet in the previews.  And I suspect that once the new codexes start coming out (not these first 5 books, but the ones that come after those), that each will have a new formation that is unique to them which plays into their back story.

 

The real problem that is likely the cause of your irritation with the formation, is the fact that we are still working out of our 3rd edition codex that keeps getting a band-aid each new edition.  New models, new ideas, and new love from GW would go along way to alleviating that irritation.  But this new edition is a move in that right direction. Almost all of our units have always been tied up in Elite and Heavy Support, and they weren't even distributed very well.  You could have a Repentia and Penitent Engines themed list, but you couldn't have a bunch of Ret squads with Exorcists.  There was an argument to be made that several of our HS choices should have been Elites and vice versa, and it would have been nice to have just had all of them in one section with the option to field them as either HS or Elite.

 

Heavy Flamer is now Heavy... since all weapons can move and fire and assault after firing, heavy doesn't mean what it used to mean.  Additionally flamers don't even suffer the movement penalty when shooting heavy weapons.  So there really isn't anything wrong with the heavy flamer being heavy.

 

Deny the Witch.... I agree with you on this one, I thought that the dispel on a 1D6 vs 2D6 casting, when pyschers get to deny on 2D6 was BS.  But we don't know the full scope of the game or even the psychic phase, so it is hard to know exactly how good or bad this is at this time.

 

Cost of the Penitent Engine - I'm not convinced at this time that units will have to pay for stock items.  We'll see in 3 weeks.

 

Evis cost - This may only be for IC picking up an Evis, it probably doesn't up the cost of Repentia.

 

AOF uninspired, except for... Ok one is move twice, one is shoot twice, one is pile-in and attack a second time, and the last one is re-animation protocols.  And you think that shooting twice is the inspired one, but attacking twice isn't?  Ok... but just to be clear, the second edition codex's version of AOF was called Rites of Battle, and one of the options you could get was once per game take a second shooting phase or assault phase.

 

What was nice about the 3rd edition AOF was that you had a list of different abilities that any unit could use and each had a tactical reason behind it.  They have since given us the best one from that list as a permanent ability... the one where we got an inv save.  The current AOF rules has each squad, once per battle, gets to see if they remember their training.  The issue I have had with AOF is that our special rules were we got the chance to randomly do once per game, what other armies just got to do all game long.  I wanted AOF to become more of manifested miracles, but GW went the other way.  Instead of AOF being divine intervention, they went with it representing zealous devotion.

 

Again, since I haven't seen the full rules and explanation for how the points system works, we are speculating on if a unit has to cost separately for gear that it does not have a choice on.

[BitsHammer]

Also from Dakka:

"Via Facebook (IDK if said yet)

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.""

 

So the Repentia, Mistress, and Penitent Engines don't have to pay for their weapons by the looks.

And a 55 point Penitent Engine fits the power level they gave it.

Foley corrected that on his Twitter. Basically if the wargear has a points cost you pay for it, otherwise it,s free. Most units have free base wargear.

 

Also from Dakka:

"Via Facebook (IDK if said yet)

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.""

 

So the Repentia, Mistress, and Penitent Engines don't have to pay for their weapons by the looks.

And a 55 point Penitent Engine fits the power level they gave it.

There was apparently a tweet that said that was false (it was mentioned in the Points Discussion thread in the 8th Ed discussion subboard).

 

It also doesn't make sense because why have points for the Penitent Engines blades if no other unit can take them. The Repentia might not have to pay because the price just might be for the Canonness and Priest's eviscerators (which have a different profile and name from the Repentia's).

Future proofing. Units with costed wargear may see more wargear options and different default options in future releases (look at the Primaris Marines for example).

[robofish7591]

I actually don't mind most of the changes. They are certainly different than our old ones, but so are every one else's rules. The one thing that does bother me is that several of the sister superior models have illegal wargear options now. Power sword (or maul), bolter, and bolt pistol is no longer an option... and the majority of my superiors were made up of these models. Oh, well... guess they are going to be carrying really long barreled bolt pistols until this gets fixed.

Either way, I am still super excited for 8th. I really like what I have been hearing about the core rules!

[Servant of Dante]

I actually don't mind most of the changes. They are certainly different than our old ones, but so are every one else's rules. The one thing that does bother me is that several of the sister superior models have illegal wargear options now. Power sword (or maul), bolter, and bolt pistol is no longer an option... and the majority of my superiors were made up of these models. Oh, well... guess they are going to be carrying really long barreled bolt pistols until this gets fixed.

Either way, I am still super excited for 8th. I really like what I have been hearing about the core rules!

No, the Superior has access to the "melee weapons" list. I'm sure those are on there.

[Ficinus]

Robofish meant because the melee weapon replaces the boltgun in the 8th list, meaning that a model can't have both a boltgun and melee weapon.

[Servant of Dante]

Robofish meant because the melee weapon replaces the boltgun in the 8th list, meaning that a model can't have both a boltgun and melee weapon.

oh, yeah that's an issue . . . both of my Power Weapon Superiors have boltguns. Hum. Nice catch, I (obviously) hadn't noticed that :D

 

*slow clap for GW*

[robofish7591]

She does have access to them, but it says "The sister superior may replace her boltgun with a weapon from the melee weapons or ranged weapons list" and "The sister superior may replace her bolt pistol with a weapon from the pistols list."  So, unfortunately, they can only take a bolter or a power weapon, not both.  Unless I missed something, which is possible since I do not have the book in hand.

 

Got ninja'd!

[Servant of Dante]

She does have access to them, but it says "The sister superior may replace her boltgun with a weapon from the melee weapons or ranged weapons list" and "The sister superior may replace her bolt pistol with a weapon from the pistols list."  So, unfortunately, they can only take a bolter or a power weapon, not both.  Unless I missed something, which is possible since I do not have the book in hand.

yeah, sorry again. I suppose I should read things before trying to correct people :P

 

I suppose I assumed weapon lists worked the same way they had before. This really is a silly move on GW's part, since it's now impossible to play several of their models WYSIWYG.

[robofish7591]

Haha Its ok, it happens no need to apologize. But really, there are only so many SoB sculpts, how hard would it have been to double check what wargear is on the models you are selling?