hopes, dreams, and fears for sisters in 8th

[Commander Dawnstar]

17 points also. They both have the same base points cost and pay zero points for their weapons.

[BitsHammer]

17 points also. They both have the same base points cost and pay zero points for their weapons.

Then I am stumped because I can't think of anything repentia have that pushes them to be treated as 20ppm power levels. Mistake perhaps?

[Noeh]

Probably just the swords. They're likely getting tied in with how much power level an eviscerator gives to other things even though they get them for free and are arguably the same role as DCA. Repentia just has higher damage output against multiwound enemies while DCA are better at taking out 1 wound enemies.

Aka somebody probably made a mistake on the points.

[Servant of Dante]

Meh. As far as I'm concerned the major Orders always have been and always will be 3000-4000 Sisters each on average.

 

Just another reason to add to the list of "why the new fluff doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned" :P

[Noeh]

I'll stick to my heretical, not-sisters fluff. Nothing will change, I will just be able to use units they would have already had more effectively. I already toyed with putting the great axes from thunderwolf cavalry on witch aelves made up to be less elfy. Works great for a substitute eviscerator.

[foxlight713]

Figured I put the leaks all in one post as they are not in the OP so they can be referenced in the discussion.  As we can see the repentia eviserator is zero points so they get them for free.

 

Images of the index pages

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2017/05/sisters-of-battle-leaks.html 

 

first reveal

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2017/05/8th-ed-sisters-of-battle-revealed.html 

 

Full image of the points list

http://i.imgur.com/ZlNw2NT.jpg

[wraithman]

Looks like Sister Superiors can have Eviscerators as well. However, looks like AoFs got nerfed and don't scale well for large armies, unless one adds additional birdhouse carriers to their unit. Also, no Repressors, and no other characters besides Jacobus and Celestine. Does look like PEs will be comparable to Dreads, but more expensive, and I like the idea of 'Desperate for Redemption'. We'll just have to see how the army plays now before judging.

[CrusherJoe]

Wait, y'all are still looking for leaks? C'mon now. Ain't no sense in that.

 

Hint: The first "reveal" was dead on, as far as I can tell. AoF is kinda like Soulburst-lite. Playing some small 8E games tomorrow with Sisters and Wolves. We'll see how it goes...

[A.T.]

Looks like Sister Superiors can have Eviscerators as well.

 

Not on the cc wargear list - only available to the Canoness and priest directly within their unit entry.

 

Superiors have access to :

-Chainsword, power axe/maul/sword

-Boltgun, combi-flamer/melta/plasma, condemnor, storm bolter

-Bolt pistol, plasma pistol, inferno pistol

 

They can only replace their boltgun with a ranged or close combat weapon

They can only replace their pistol with another pistol

No dual-wielding.

 

The seraphim superior is an exception as she has two bolt pistols and may exchange one for a chain/power sword, and the other for a plasma pistol.

[HoboAnarki]

Looks like Sister Superiors can have Eviscerators as well. However, looks like AoFs got nerfed and don't scale well for large armies, unless one adds additional birdhouse carriers to their unit. Also, no Repressors, and no other characters besides Jacobus and Celestine. Does look like PEs will be comparable to Dreads, but more expensive, and I like the idea of 'Desperate for Redemption'. We'll just have to see how the army plays now before judging.

 

AoF scale as well for sisters as marker lights scale for tau, or orders scale for guard. Repressors are forge world, and are supposed to get rules in the first forge world index for adeptus astartes. There's not been any other special characters since our white dwarf codex. Penitent engines are slightly cheaper than the cheapest dreadnought from what I hear.

 

I think people aren't looking at this in the context of 8th edition, ALL the armies have been treated pretty much the same, i.e. no relics, strategems etc. so don't feel too hard done by. To be honest, I'm surprised that we didn't just get a straight copy+paste like we have for the last 2 releases. The internal balance feels a lot better, and the army as a whole feels less mono-listy, but that could just be a consequence of not knowing the meta yet.

[Gothical]

I was doing the maths in the N&R Sisters thread, Death Cults are the same/superior to Repentia against T7 enemies on the charge thanks to Zealot, whilst Repentia are better against T8 enemies and much, much better whenever they can use The Passion to their advantage (or get stacked with either a Priest or Mistress to get +1A/re-rolls).

The only think that makes me is that Khorne Berzerkers are 17ppm with Chainaxes - S5 AP-1 2A, fight twice a turn, T4 and 3+ Saves. Cross-army comparisons are always a little tricky, but it certainly did give me pause discovering that.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Fulgurite Electro-Priests also compare somewhat unfavourably. Same statline with a 5+ Invulnerable Save, chance of causing Mortal Wounds when they charge, 5+ FNP, Leadership 8 base and Strength 5/-2/D3 Wounds without To Hit penalty that causes an additional D3 Mortal Wounds on any sixes to wound ... and they boost to a 3++ save if they ever wipe a unit in close combat. Also Canticles can potentially grant them +1 Strength or let them reroll 1s to hit.

 

They cost 16 points.

 

Also, no Repressors, and no other characters besides Jacobus and Celestine.

 

Well it's been all but confirmed that the Repressor will be in the Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes from Forgeworld/

[Banjulhu]

 

Looks like Sister Superiors can have Eviscerators as well. However, looks like AoFs got nerfed and don't scale well for large armies, unless one adds additional birdhouse carriers to their unit. Also, no Repressors, and no other characters besides Jacobus and Celestine. Does look like PEs will be comparable to Dreads, but more expensive, and I like the idea of 'Desperate for Redemption'. We'll just have to see how the army plays now before judging.

 

AoF scale as well for sisters as marker lights scale for tau, or orders scale for guard. Repressors are forge world, and are supposed to get rules in the first forge world index for adeptus astartes. There's not been any other special characters since our white dwarf codex. Penitent engines are slightly cheaper than the cheapest dreadnought from what I hear.

A standard guardsman or firewarrior is not paying a tax for an officer's order rule or the markerlights a unit of pathfinders has, so the Guard and Tau only pay for the bonus when they want it and can buy more with more points.

 

Now the Sisters of battle can buy in extra Acts of Faith chances with an Imgnifier and that is fine ignoring the random 50/50 nature of them. However every Soroitas model in a sisters army is paying some of their points towards the Act of Faith rule on their profile so as the army gets beigger more points are getting sunk into teh act of faith naturally without any increase on the capacity.

[HoboAnarki]

 

 

Looks like Sister Superiors can have Eviscerators as well. However, looks like AoFs got nerfed and don't scale well for large armies, unless one adds additional birdhouse carriers to their unit. Also, no Repressors, and no other characters besides Jacobus and Celestine. Does look like PEs will be comparable to Dreads, but more expensive, and I like the idea of 'Desperate for Redemption'. We'll just have to see how the army plays now before judging.

 

AoF scale as well for sisters as marker lights scale for tau, or orders scale for guard. Repressors are forge world, and are supposed to get rules in the first forge world index for adeptus astartes. There's not been any other special characters since our white dwarf codex. Penitent engines are slightly cheaper than the cheapest dreadnought from what I hear.

A standard guardsman or firewarrior is not paying a tax for an officer's order rule or the markerlights a unit of pathfinders has, so the Guard and Tau only pay for the bonus when they want it and can buy more with more points.

 

Now the Sisters of battle can buy in extra Acts of Faith chances with an Imgnifier and that is fine ignoring the random 50/50 nature of them. However every Soroitas model in a sisters army is paying some of their points towards the Act of Faith rule on their profile so as the army gets beigger more points are getting sunk into teh act of faith naturally without any increase on the capacity.

 

 

What makes you think Tau don't have the ability to use markerlights factored into their cost, or orders with guard?

[Ficinus]

Guard can pay 20 pts and an elites slot for one order or 30 pts and an HQ slot for two orders. These orders have a 100% chance of firing and with certain equipment, order ranges can be boosted to an 18" bubble. Sisters pay 40 pts and an elites slot for a 50/50 chance at an AoF. The Guard one scales a lot better, given they have multiple ways to access orders and don't have to rely on luck.

[taikishi]

Guard can also access extra uses of orders through Elite choices and HQ choices; outside of Celestine (who is a unique model), Sisters can only get extra uses out of Acts of Faith from their Elites slots, shoehorning them into one of three specific detachments to get those extra uses since you'll probably want at least one Imagifier per unit with the AoF rule (characters and squads), if not two.

[Beams]

Guard can also access extra uses of orders through Elite choices and HQ choices; outside of Celestine (who is a unique model), Sisters can only get extra uses out of Acts of Faith from their Elites slots, shoehorning them into one of three specific detachments to get those extra uses since you'll probably want at least one Imagifier per unit with the AoF rule (characters and squads), if not two.

Your going to want a fine balance. Aof's are force multipliers. You are going to want a good chunk of your points going to more models. Remember: Nuns Before Guns.

 

We get wounded easy, and we die quick. We need to balance firepower, wounds and faith.

 

 

Sure, we can use faith to boost firepower, but that can only go so far. I'd say, in a 2000 pt game, you'd want 2-3 imagifiers if you had Celestine. Any more, I think, would be better spent on more nuns, tanks, or multimet as.

 

That way you'll be using 2-5 AOF a turn, which to me, seems pretty good, with the distribution being about 3 1/2. Give or take a smudge.

 

Edit: guard also needs better force multipliers because they have worse weapons, armor and staying power. Sure, they have more bodies, but they'll lose their guys much quicker.

 

In cover we have a 2+ save on almost all our units, where guard will have 3-4+, depending on what armor they are wearing.

 

Second Edit: also guard orders used to affect large 20-40 man blobs at a time, so it wasn't uncommon in 7th to have three orders but to have your entire gun line buffed. Now infantry is broken into individual 10 man squads, which means guard orders are less efficient AND they can only be used at a short range, unless Ty pay for VoX Relays which are going to add up quickly. I would say guard is going to end up paying just as much if not more for their orders than we are for acts of faith.

[BitsHammer]

I can see a mass campaign to purge the rules team of their heresy against the Sisters. Why are we the only army that still has to roll to get our special rule to work? Not even Guard need to roll anymore.

[Servant of Dante]

I don't see how the Sisters have better weapons than IG. Better armour, yes, but the IG can take all sorts of tanks, it's only the basic infantry that are inferior. :D

 

In any case, Beams makes a good point. It's also good to point out that our AoFs seem a bit more powerful than orders, so it's not too unreasonable to make them a bit harder to access.

 

My biggest complaint is that we are being forced to use so many Elites slots, but eh. :)

 

Edit: it's not that I think our army looks perfectly balanced with all the other ones, it's just that at this point i just want to play some games with my Sisters.

[BitsHammer]

I disagree. Tying AoF to the elite slot with lone models that can be killed to prevent us from using them was enough to balance it. Officers hide in units, Imagefiers have to rely on their ability to survive on their own. And it's not like Imagefiers are free. They cost a fair number of points and only have a small number of wounds.

 

If they wanted to make it a fair roll then the 2+ should have been for the Imagefiers and the army wide AoF should have been automatic. One unit getting a boost once a turn automatically won't win games, but it would even the odds, while the 2+ would have given us a chance of failure while not making it a friggin coin flip to access our rules.

[HoboAnarki]

Faith would be so much better if it was worded "Once per turn, at the start of any phase..." rather than "At the start of your turn...".

 

Also, why not give vehicles Acts of faith, they have shields of it? Unless the wording on Celestine and the Imagifier is intentional and the target doesn't need the ability, just the keyword. Might be worth getting in touch with MVBrandt once the rules are officially out, as he apparently was the armies play tester.

[A.T.]

I don't see how the Sisters have better weapons than IG. Better armour, yes, but the IG can take all sorts of tanks, it's only the basic infantry that are inferior.

Actually the basic guard infantry are more durable for the points (moreso against weapons with -1 AP or better), but they have less powerful basic weapons (especially against the many T6/T7 targets now in the game) and lose more models to moral.

[Servant of Dante]

I don't see how the Sisters have better weapons than IG. Better armour, yes, but the IG can take all sorts of tanks, it's only the basic infantry that are inferior.

Actually the basic guard infantry are more durable for the points (moreso against weapons with -1 AP or better), but they have less powerful basic weapons (especially against the many T6/T7 targets now in the game) and lose more models to moral.

ok. I just wanted to point out that our overall weapons armory isn't head and shoulders above the IG's :P

[BitsHammer]

I want to point out that the Machine God should not have people more full of zealotry than the Sisters.

 

I hate to say it, but it feels like the Sisters were phoned in. Again.

[Beams]

Imagifier is a character, which means she can only be targeted by thugs within 12" or if

She's the closest, same rule that helps guard.

 

Also, guard orders only affect infantry, hence te comparison of weapons and gear. They can take a tank commander who can buff leman Russias but he can only buff leman Russia's and isn't cheap.

 

Beginning of turn isn't great, but hey, you can still do some nasty tricks with it, just not as nasty.

 

As far as balance, I don't think try did a bad job, but just that we need to reevaluate what we take. Old auto includes aren't, with the exception of Celestine.

 

And sure, we're not as good as the chad marines. But that's so GW will sell tons of their models. But we're not that bad off.