*How* Should the Primarchs Return?

[KiltedMarine]

Started to get off on a tangent in the discussion of the retcon to Sanguinius' death in Rumors, cut my answer down and decided I wanted to talk about this question separately.

 

We know that the primarchs are coming- we're already two-deep in gargantuan posthuman demigods and a third is almost certainly coming very soon.  The time for debating *if* primarchs belong in 40K has passed, for good or ill, now let's talk about *how* they should come back: in what form, by what story mechanisms, and to what story ends.  I'll start with the Lion:

 

If GW bring him back and it's  "LOL THE FALLEN ARE THE REAL LOYALISTS" or "LOL HE'S THE ONE WHO TURNS TO CHAOS" I will buy a one-way ticket to Nottingham to set myself on fire in front of GW in protest.  Because that's lazy writing.  It's the easy way to generate angst, it's the obvious twist ending, it's just... cartoony and facile.

 

When The Lion comes back, he CANNOT be the one to fall to Chaos, and the answer to the loyalties of the Fallen CANNOT be a pat "they're traitors" or "they're loyalists."  Can The Lion be a "traitor?"  Sure, because who defines the term?  El'Jonson may see Guilliman's actions as usurpation and adamantly refuse to go along.  He'll fight to throw the Chaos Legions back into the Warp, sure, but in that case he'd also be looking to knock Guilliman down a peg or three.  As for the Fallen, he could become the Redeeming Angel, offering reconciliation to the repentant while crushing the truly corrupt without mercy.  The Unforgiven could fracture along doctrinal lines, some chapters overcome with relief born of absolution while others double down on their insularity and sense of guilt.  All of them follow their fathers' commandments, because Loyalty is its Own Reward, but not all of them accept the idea of letting the Fallen "get away with it."

 

This introduces a Loyalist primarch who still has reason for his legion (let's call the Unforgiven what they've always been) Not Playing Well With Others.  It's true to who he's been portrayed as, doesn't :cuss all over the fluff that's gone before, and it doesn't reduce him to a sycophantic also-ran next to his blue brother.

 

What do you guys think?  What other primarchs are you concerned about seeing come back?  How do you think they should?

[Guest]

I am worried about all the Primarchs. When they comes back they cant be just "okay" with everything that has happened. Responding with "okay" to the Primaris Marines, the Ecclesiarchy, the ing Inquisition, and just shrugging and going along with it because Papa Smurf said so? Not a chance. I want to see them either A.( go "renegade" and fight for the Imperium and ideals they helped build before 10,000 years of literal chaos, or B.( be convinced by Roboute, in a way that showcases his oratory skills and that Roboute is not happy with what has happened either, but if they don't fight together, they and the Imperium will die alone. Each Primarch has a personality that would not allow him to fight for something as broken as the Imperium the way it is now, unless given a good explanation and an even greater reason to do so.

[Guest]

Lion back is as anything other than Loyal to the Emperor would be my breaking point the day I throw the towel in with regards to 40k Lore.

 

Lion and Guilliman might not not have been the best of friends but they were not enemies, Lion would be as disgusted as Roboute was.

If Guilliman did get some vision/order from the Emperor whats to say the WitD don't know... I bet them little bastards have been feeding info to the Lion while he slumbers.

 

Dorn? I am just not sure of. 

 

Sanguinius? I would like to see him back as at the end of the day if there needs to be a new Emperor I still feel thats Sanguinius. How to bring him back? It's difficult and needs to be handled by anyone with kid gloves (Just no Ward or Abnett).

 

Vulkan. Well he is around just not sure where. 

 

Khan. The outsider all the more reason for him not to be LOL Traitor. Again whats he up to? Is he in the Webway smacking DE around like red-headed step children?

 

Russ. Foretold his return, I am hoping for a Odin type Russ not a Wulfen Russ, will he be at odds with Roboute? Sure they are brothers, but Russ is not stupid, he might not have agreed to the codex, but he did agree to the Legion split so that tells me he is reasonable

 

Corax. Like Dorn I am not sure how.

 

Ferrus. Legion of the Damned is the best idea I have seen, others have suggested one of his clones escaping Fulgrim, I like that too.

 

 

I still feel the ones living after the Heresy are going to have known of Guillimans contingency plan, Given all the Primus Marines have all Primarchs Geneseed.

[Claws and Effect]

Corax will likely just appear one day, unbidden and unlooked for.

 

It will turn out he's been back for a while and has been using his shadow step ability to try and figure out what the hell is going on before announcing himself.

[deathspectersgt7]

Would have not seen anyone of the loyal ones  come back . I can understand the Daemon Primarchs but the others could stay in Maui or where ever they are hanging. 

[Olis]

In my mind, Guilliman was the most obvious one to bring back and I think that doing it once was enough. Hell, if I had my way, it wouldn't have happened at all. But bringing back the others? I suppose I could eventually accept the return of the missing primarchs, what with them being missing and not confirmed as dead. It wouldn't take much to build a credible story about how or why they were missing but not dead for a hundred centuries. It could be done. It shouldn't, but it could be.

 

But I'd not be keen at all to embrace the return of the dead ones. Ferrus, Sanguinius, Curze... They're dead for a reason. Let the sleeping dead lie.

[Guest]

In my mind, Guilliman was the most obvious one to bring back and I think that doing it once was enough. Hell, if I had my way, it wouldn't have happened at all. But bringing back the others? I suppose I could eventually accept the return of the missing primarchs, what with them being missing and not confirmed as dead. It wouldn't take much to build a credible story about how or why they were missing but not dead for a hundred centuries. It could be done. It shouldn't, but it could be.

 

But I'd not be keen at all to embrace the return of the dead ones. Ferrus, Sanguinius, Curze... They're dead for a reason. Let the sleeping dead lie.

 

I think its fair to say the Main Big 4 for Chaos are coming back. 

 

I can see more Loyalists return but then I have wanted them back for years. 

 

We have to adapt or quit, and I am sure you don't want to quit :P 

[SickSix]

Let's keep it real and stick with the ones that actually have lore supporting their possible return.

 

Lion - He's a loyalist through and through and those that say otherwise haven't read enough books or are just trolling if we are all honest. But I don't know what it would take for him to wake up since, you know, the Changeling was running around the deepest darkest parts of the Rock unlocking cells and cages, and he didn't wake up then. Even with Magnus on the planet below. So who knows how he comes back. I feel like they kind of missed the boat already.

 

Vulcan - I believe there are only two artifacts left to find, one being the Obsidian Chariot. So once some Ultra Primaris Marines go grab those last artifacts for the Salamanders I assume he will come back and Join G-Man. He's a good guy's good guy and will want to help save the Imperium. But hopefully we get to see him smash some face as well.

 

Kahn - Well who knows. If he is in Comagorrah or wheverever he may be mad (crazy) by now. Fighting pit fights for 10k years will do that to someone. Or he could ride out of the webway on his bike and go after Magnus. That would be cool.

 

Corax - I think he's to emo to come back. I think that was one of the worst HH books, or one of the best Alpha Legion books....

 

Russ - Hopefully comes back as a full blown Wulfen that Kahn rides into battle.

 

Either way any of those returning is not only actually plausible, but not at all vomit inducing as bringing back quite dead Sangy or Ferrus. (Although due to personal bias I probably wouldn't cry foul as much about Ferrus coming back if I'm perfectly honest lol)

[Olis]

I think its fair to say the Main Big 4 for Chaos are coming back.

I can see more Loyalists return but then I have wanted them back for years.

We have to adapt or quit, and I am sure you don't want to quit

Oh, yeah, the living ones we'll see. No problem. Daemon primarchs are a given and something that's been on the cards for a loooong time, I think. As for adapting... I could adapt... or I could find an appropriately sized stretch of sand...

Nah, like I've said before, I'm not going to quit over this sort of thing. I may end up adapting. But that old box of crap in the corner where the Clan Raukaan book is poking out is beckoning...

[Ishagu]

The only thing I don't really want is a Civil War type scenario.

 

Guilliman is the Lord Commander - they all accepted it once before and it's no different now. I'm perfectly ok with the Lion/Dorn/Russ disagreeing with Guilliman, arguing with him at War Councils etc, and perhaps even voting on the path the Imperium is taking.

 

There is no reason why any would be angry with him; He's not been around, they've not been around, and in fairness his new Crusade is a big improvement over what the Imperium was doing prior to his return. The fact that it's happening during the most dire times with the Empire split in two doesn't take away from his accomplishments.

 

I could imagine Dorn being appointed to lead parts of the Crusade as a frontline general who takes the fight directly to the Enemy. I want to see the old Wall builder replaced by a Crusader, perhaps dressed in Black as one of the Templars. I don't see Guilliman as someone who generally leads from the front although it's something he can do if it's necessary.

 

As for their returns, the Lion should simply wake up. Russ will come out of the Eye during the campaign to re-capture Cadia, Dorn and Vulkan are recovered during the new Crusade, one or both having been trapped/in stasis/locked up. As for Corax and the Khan, they could appear anywhere and for any number of reasons. I want something interesting done with them, perhaps they return as disillusioned broken men who undermine the Imperium or go Rogue, but not servants of Chaos.

[Guest]

I think its fair to say the Main Big 4 for Chaos are coming back.

I can see more Loyalists return but then I have wanted them back for years.

We have to adapt or quit, and I am sure you don't want to quit

Oh, yeah, the living ones we'll see. No problem. Daemon primarchs are a given and something that's been on the cards for a loooong time, I think. As for adapting... I could adapt... or I could find an appropriately sized stretch of sand...

Nah, like I've said before, I'm not going to quit over this sort of thing. I may end up adapting. But that old box of crap in the corner where the Clan Raukaan book is poking out is beckoning...

We all will, hell I say the Lion being a traitor would make me quit... It probably wouldnt its just the thing that would trigger the Boltarius Crusade to Nottingham ...

The only thing I don't really want is a Civil War type scenario.

Guilliman is the Lord Commander - they all accepted it once before and it's no different now. I'm perfectly ok with the Lion/Dorn/Russ disagreeing with Guilliman, arguing with him at War Councils etc, and perhaps even voting on the path the Imperium is taking.

There is no reason why any would be angry with him. He's not been around, they've not been around, and in fairness his new Crusade is a big improvement over what the Imperium as doing prior to his return. The fact that it's happening during the most dire times with the Empire split in two doesn't take away from his accomplishments.

I could imagine Dorn being appointed to lead parts of the Crusade as a frontline general who takes the fight directly to the Enemy. I want to see the old Wall builder replaced by a Crusader, perhaps dressed in Black as one of the Templars. I don't see Guilliman as someone who generally leads from the front although it's something he can do if it's necessary.

See I see Russ, Dorn and the Lion to the ones to kick the out of Chaos while Vulkan and Guilliman defend. I would have said Dorn as a defender but i think he will return with a certain *ZEAL*

[Ishagu]

I want to see a Crusading Dorn, not a defender. I think the theme of the new Crusade and 8th is to bring the fight to the enemy. I don't expect Abaddon will get to Terra, but a nice contingency plan or two should be in place!

[Mirbeau]

Very carefully, would be a shame to see 40k turn into the marvel avengers affair the old world did in it's dying days.

[Ishagu]

It's already been there though... The Age of Darkness

[Damo1701]

Corax

 

If Corax came back, and saw the state of the Imperium now (assuming none of the Primarchs knew Malcador created the Inquisition), he would be :cuss at the Inquisition, seeing them as little more than the slave masters he overthrew.

 

He would appear in a random place, called by his sons in their darkest hour, whether they would be Raven Guard, or, slightly twisted, a successor chapter, possibly even one who didn't know they were descendants of Corax.  I could live with either option.

 

Now, whether he would accept what Guilliman is playing at, and the 10k-year-old legion from the Imperial Basement, that's totally another question.  Sure, Corax himself tried to create superior Astartes and succeeded until those little stinkers the Alpha Legion pranked big brother Corax and made his new Astartes all mutated and nasty.

 

Corax might slap ole Guilliman upside the head a few times, possibly with his lightning claw, but would concentrate on gathering his chapter(s) to him, and striking out on Crusade with his brother.

 

It's quite possible that surviving loyalist Primarchs recreate the War Council, for running the second crusade, and telling the Church and Inquisition along with the High Lords to go suck some lemons in the EoT until they have purged as many REAL heretics and Xenos as their Astartes have.

[Kastor Krieg]

Horus - nope. Big no. No. Just no.First point from me - they should come back. Both loyalists and the chaos daemons or unaligned. Most all of them, but everyone with a twist, twists that we already know about and those we do not. And most of the loyalists returning should be in the gray area, in the middle ground, not clearly claimed.

 

Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Lorgar, Perturabo - all follow suit after Magnus. We see DG coming back with 8e and Mortarion with them. This is the way, faction aligned, grand miniature releases. Unproblematic, clear cut.

 

Konrad Curze - the only Traitor I could see "reset" into a Loyalist. His death an act of contrition, repentance of sorts, self-reflection. He was a dark mirror to Sanguinius, with the foresight and twisted sense of justice and independence. Him coming back, rejecting his Legion entirely and becoming an unwanted and despised Loyalist with maybe a rag-tag army of Blackshield-type volunteers? I can totally see that.

 

A/O - Dead. That's the one Primarch that truly lives eternally through their Legion. No need to meddle, Hydra Dominatus.

Ferrus Manus - my old Legion of the Damned connection still holds true to me. That's where he's at.

 

Lion - he's healed under the rock, fully briefed throughout the ages by Watchers and eternally... fractioned and NEUTRAL. There were DA who followed Luther into rebellion and into Chaos. There were those who rebelled against the Lion independently, to remain more loyal to Terra than their primarch. Then those who chose the primarch over Terra. And then those who just hung back to wait and see. This is why the DA now capture and interrogate. They need to find out WHO IS WHO. Who stood on whose side at the break of dawn during the Heresy. And the Lion wakes up into an Imperium where everyone wants him on their side - the Lords of Terra, Guilliman, Azrael and Belial, the successors. He chooses neither, declaring his only loyalty to his Father and hangs back.

Sanguinius - to quote myself:

 

 

[...] this is why I feel bringing Sanguinius back would be GOOD for the setting variety. Yes, I think that in connection with his latent and not really ever developed POWERFUL psychic ability, his emotional anguish at being proven that his brother Horus was not only mad, but forever irrevokeably GONE, supplanted entirely by the power of the Four riding his husk, was what the Chapter felt and what opened his guard allowing the Talon to strike.

And the same certainty was what opened the Emperor's eyes, after Horus eradicated the valiant Ollanius Pius (no, not an Imperial Fist and not a Custodes - the sheer utter contempt for humanity is what's required here).

If Sanguinius is purified and healed by the golden blood casket he's in but wakens still in that mortal anguish - forever changed from an Angel of Salvation into an Angel of Vengeance? If Blood Angels and their Successors follow him and disregard any commands from Guilliman / Terra? The one whom Guilliman has already once crowned Emperor, in Imperium Secundus?

That's a great story arc shaping up.

 

Jaghatai - I will have to give him more consideration, but that's another character into the "another variety of true neutral" bin.

Russ - an Odin returned, matured, grizzled, bitter. Someone who would not be tricked and used like he was at Prospero. The brawled matured by time and adversity.

Dorn - a Dreadnought primarch. Simple as that. His duty unending. Not a life support BS armour like RG's. A proper Dread, pain glove neverending, his Crusade Eternal. A primarch become a Templar.

Vulkan - He should be... a tragedy. A monster. The most humane primarch turned into a cold, unfeeling monstrosity by Curze's tortures. A loyalist / traitor (opposition) shuffle with Curze, ironically. An unkillable wraith of a primarch, marauding across the Imperium.

Corax - he returns a loyalist and people aren't sure they are happy about it. What happened? Those predation fleets he rejected from Raven Guard? He embraced the Carcharodon way. Just imagine that, a Carcharodon Primarch. Let that sink in.

[Scribe]

Horus - Nope

Sang - Nope

Curze - Nope

Ferrus - Nope

 

Dorn - Ugh, I hate that he even lived during the Beast series. Should have died in the Scouring. Just kill him off as it should be, under a tide of Traitors.

 

Russ - Yes, canonical, just let him come roaring out of the Warp at the head of his pack, and literally RIP TEAR.

 

http://i.imgur.com/fd3A2cQ.png

 

Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Lorgar, Perturabo - All Daemon's, no explanation needed.

 

Khan - Yep, canonical, bring it on.

Vulkan - Apparently he's also around, good luck getting a good story for his return...lol

Corax - Canonical, let him show up as an opponent, yet still loyal to Humanity, to Rob.

Lion - Just open the door, he's right there.

 

Thats how it should be done, using the hooks that already have existed for decades, and not trying to force a fart, like some of the Sanguinius talk.

[Reaver Lord Soul]

@Scribe Forgive me if I`m wrong, but wasn`t it Vulkan who was in The Beast instead of Dorn? Apart from that I agree with all your other points

[Ishagu]

During Beast Arises, Vulkan said to the Imperial Fist Chapter Master: "I'll tell your father of your bravery"

 

This strongly implies Vulkan knows Dorn is alive.

[the jeske]

Primarch comunication is a problem though, they have this wordless communications we know where our dad, brothers are , that is totaly not warp powers, but works totaly as if it was.

[Doghouse]

I think they should be left in the past.

 

The bit that makes me laugh is Guilliman was revived with the assistance of an emissary of alien death god and then turned into Robo-Guilliman by actual plot armour. I would find it hilarious if it turns out that it isn't him and he just spent the day alone in the throne room unplugging the throne, killing the Emperor and now the Eldar have a puppet leading the Imperium! :D

[Khornestar]

IMO the fact that this huge warp storm spanning the galaxy has already had stable travel routes discovered has cheapened the entire storytelling potential of 8th. I mention this not only in reference to primarchs, but in any situation where the Imperial situation is so dire that only an OUT OF NOWHERE, JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME can and will save them. Because there are these super secret routes that aren't the webway, but NuMarines can still be delivered to these cut off chapters so people who play them will feel fluff-justified in buying them.

 

A primarch like the Lion (he'd be my preference for loyalists) returning to unite and wield what's left of the beleaguered Dark Imperium because the Rock was on that side of the storm when all the big :cuss went down during the Fall of Cadia... that would be awesome. No communication with Terra, no nothing, they have to fend for themselves. Then one day a route (or whatever) is discovered, and the two brothers and their respective halves of the Imperium meet, and we find out if loyalty to their father is enough to keep the whole thing together, and if either will acquiesce power.

 

But nope, we'll have a new primarch and campaign book every quarter or two, and the Imperium will win victory after victory against the daemon primarchs and xenos alike after making the threats seem serious.

[Evil Eye]

Isn't Dorn just a skeleton at this point? The Fists even have his finger bones.

 

Anyway, here's my feelings:

 

Angron: Easy enough to do. It's Angron. He gets gak done.

 

Mortarion: Still alive, and a Daemon Prince, so all they need to do is snap him out of his emo phase and get him wrecking stuff.

Fulgrim: Assuming GeeDubs doesn't try and get rid of Slaanesh (and they had better not or I will literally order a siege on GW HQ) no big deal. He's already "killed" Big G once before, now he's coming back to finish the job.

 

Perturabo: Easy enough. He's alive, he just needs to get busy.

 

Lorgar: Hopefully he'll stop contemplating the meaning of Chaos and start wreaking havoc. In any event, easy to bring back.

 

Curze: Nope, he's dead. Keep him dead. Him coming back from the dead would completely ruin the impact of his death.

 

Alpharius/Omegron: We don't even know if Alpharius IS dead, and Omegron for certain is still alive and kicking- and given that literally every single Alpha Legionnaire embodies the Primarch completely, there's almost no need to bring them back. The entire point of the Alpha Legion is that they don't have a big centrepiece leader- they have Alpharius, and they are ALL Alpharius.

 

Horus: Aside from one very interesting theory I read on 1d4chan suggesting that the Emperor actually died on the Vengeful Spirit, and the one suffering on the Golden Throne is Horus, I really don't want Horus brought back. He's dead, Abaddon is his successor.

 

Dorn: Again, pretty sure he's very, VERY dead. Pls no.

 

Khan: He's alive so he could come back easily enough.

 

Vulkan: Pretty sure he actually came back in one of the books, just not in model form. Yet.

 

Russ: Yes please. A more mature, remorseful Russ coming back to slap some sense into Guilliman over his silly attempt at retrying Imperium Secundus would be awesome.

 

Lion: See above. How they would bring him back I'm not sure, but it would be cool if they did- so long as they don't pull the OMG HE'S A TRAITOR card. That ship has long sailed.

 

Ferrus: Dead, dead, dead. No.

 

Corax: I know nothing about Corax, but he's alive so why not?

 

Sanguinius: NO NO NO NO NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Sanguinius' death is one of the most iconic parts of the Horus Heresy, and the impact of it on the Blood Angels is what makes them unique. Bringing back Sanguinius would be a mistake.

 

TLDR: Alive? Sure, bring 'em back. Half-dead? Sure, why not. Actually dead? NO. Let the dead lie.

[Doghouse]

I think with Dorn all they found was his hand which kind of left it open as to whether he could return or not. I think the assumption was that the traitors tore his body apart after he fell but it was left to the imagination.

[Claws and Effect]

With Dorn there is conflicting canon. Some sources say the Fists have his skeletal hand, others say they have his entire skeleton.