*How* Should the Primarchs Return?

[Knight of the Raven]

To be honest, the only reason a primarch even got killed in the Horus Heresy setting is that the Alpha Legion got a spare.

 

While it does throw a wrench in my favored interpretation of the battle of Eskrador as a civil war between Alpharius and Omegon (I believe it is Deus Ex Ferrum I have to thank for introducing me to this theory), I'd like death to matter in the Age of Darkness.

 

You know, unlike in the "new Warhammer 40,000."

 

OH HI GARRO DIDN'T SEE YOU THERE

[bluntblade]

Don't you mean Loken?

[Knight of the Raven]

Maybe. All the Knights-Errant look the same to me. Betrayer is the only Horus Heresy novel I read after all. I still had to deal with resurrection and perpetuals there, but at least the former involved the appropriate amount of dark necromancy for the comeback to life not to feel cheap.

 

Anyway. How the primarchs should return. Besides "not at all," I mean.

 

To echo my post in the rumor thread about Sanguinius' return, maybe there can be a resurrection of a genuinely dead primarch... but the soul that entered his body was not that of the actual primarch. Maybe Kurze for Sanguinius (if his soul somehow survived in the warp for ten thousand real world years) or the Void Dragon for Ferrus (if the thing even has a soul in the first place).

 

I'm not saying it'd actually be good, especially if the GW Studio writes it rather than the few writers at Black Library who deserve to be called such, but I'm sure it'd be better than cheaper resurrections.

 

And for the love of all that is right in the world don't include the Sapphire King.

[D3L]

Maybe Roboute will come back as a robot... Oh, wait.

 

Where's my royalties. Damn it.

[Kristoff]

I think if Alpharius did manage to weasel out of a death so final that his twin felt it and knew his brother was dead, it would be far more obnoxious than awesome.

 

An interesting thought on that... What if Alpharious could relocate his soul in to one of the Marines with his Geneseed when that body died?  It would give full credence to the idea of "I am Alpharious" being an actual, literal thing.

 

It's not like the Emperor hasn't shown a similar ability, moving through bodies throughout the centuries before the death of the shamans.

[Mellow]

Just stop it. Stop all this crazy behaviour or I'm going to have to write a stern letter to your parents.

 

Alpharius is dead. His brother felt the loss. If he didn't get killed and it was just another agent of the alpha legion it would cheapen the whole novel and Dorns achievement.

 

Also the shaman thing isn't confirmed as canon so stop that too!

 

Naughty kids wishing for too much.

[DeadFingers]

But Alpharius' brother is also Alpharius

[Master Commander Ajax]

The 'power level' of the Primarchs has varied over the years and part of the problem with the narrative at the moment is that there aren't enough checks and foils to their abilities. It's one of the problems I have with Guilliman being able to sweep away ten thousand years of dogma so however it's done I hope they come up with some more imaginative story telling to at least give some sense of peril.

 

Russ, Khan, Vulkan etc. can (and sadly probably will) be brought back through drawl and lazy story telling so I won't elaborate on them here.

 

Which brings me to Sanguinius. He should absolutely, positively remain dead. Maybe the collective grief of his sons and the small part of him that survived in his gene-seed could psychically manifest itself in a similar way to how the Eldar inadvertently created Slaanesh. He would be an elemental force of rage and destruction with his humanity completely stripped away and only the most embryonic hint of self-awareness remaining. His every moment would be a waking agony, constantly forced to relive the exact moment of his death.

 

The problem though is that it's all a very adult concept and at the moment the studio is watering down its previously imaginative IP in order to be able to better spoon feed it to pre-pubescents.

[Kristoff]

Just stop it. Stop all this crazy behaviour or I'm going to have to write a stern letter to your parents.

 

Alpharius is dead. His brother felt the loss. If he didn't get killed and it was just another agent of the alpha legion it would cheapen the whole novel and Dorns achievement.

 

Also the shaman thing isn't confirmed as canon so stop that too!

 

Naughty kids wishing for too much.

 

Hilarious.  There's an equal chance I'm older than you are.

 

I didn't say he didn't die, but that when he died, he transferred his soul to one of his Marines who then literally became Alpharius.  Those two did not give out secrets or information unless it was absolutely necessary, and it may have been the first time one of them were able to do that.

 

As for the shaman thing, it's all true, and it's all fake legend.  Welcome to the confusion of 40K.

[Evil Eye]

Bear in mind I've not read that many HH novels (and shamefully, one of the ones I have read is Battle for the Abyss- and even more shamefully I actually enjoyed it), and most of my knowledge of the Primarchs comes from "second hand" information courtesy of the forums and wikis, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

 

To begin with, IMO the whole mess with the Cabal is kinda silly and doesn't make a whole deal of sense, but that said I don't know what (if any) fluff about Alpharius it replaced. The Alpha Legion have always been the Legion we've known the least about (aside from the two lost Legions whose entire point is their non-existence) and honestly, given that their whole schtick is that nobody knows what the hell they're up to, I really think it would be best if they were left mysterious, and the attempts to rationalize their antics and give them a defined backstory are a mistake.

 

Anyway. Alpharius. According to the author, or rather, this particular author, Alpharius is dead. According to some, he's alive. IMO, though, it doesn't actually matter whether he's alive or not. He could be dead as dead can be, he could be masquerading as a regular Alpha Legionnaire or he could be on the Pleasure Planet kicking it with Fulgrim. Regardless, the Alpha Legion will function just as well with or without him, because he taught them the most dangerous skill of all- independence. He showed them how to operate without the guidance of a higher authority, and ultimately how to work without him. The key to the Alpha Legion's success is that they have no clearly defined "leader"- no head to cut off, no heart to pierce. If Alpharius did die, the Alpha Legion were not crippled by it. They were prepared for the possibility of his death and carried on as before.

 

That is the true power of the Alpha Legion. Every Alpha Legionnaire is Alpharius, but if he dies, Alpharius is still not dead. Alpharius is more than an individual, he is a concept. Even without soul-switching malarkey, Alpharius continues to live on even after his actual death.

 

TLDR: Alpharius' actual living status is irrelevant, as the skills he passed onto his legion are far more dangerous than any individual could ever be.

 

Phew, that was a lot of waffle. As for how it relates to whether or not he should be "brought back", whilst Alpharius HIMSELF doesn't need bringing back (we assume he is finally dead) the concept of Alpharius could reappear. As someone mentioned, the Alpha Legion are smart enough to recognize the importance of intimidating "centrepieces" (for lack of a better word), even if only as psychological threats or decoys that draw attention away from the real threat. Completely mundane Legionnaires posing as the literal returned Primarch would throw the Imperium into disarray ("But...you're supposed to be dead!"), multiple appearances simultaneously even moreso. And if these fakes did die, then nothing of tremendous value has been lost, because the foe has essentially just destroyed a cardboard cutout.

 

So pretty much, a shiny new model of "40K Alpharius" would be cool and could work very well...provided it wasn't literally resurrected Alpharius.

[Raven1]

I'm good with primarchs returning if they ate "just mostly dead" ala Princess Bride or missing. If they are all dead they need to stay dead. Unless as I have seen on the board already. A cloned Ferrus Magnus who gets taunted by Fulcrum with his old head. I would also accept a semi-Sanguinus comeback if Mephiston got primarised and became like an avatar of primarch succumbing fully to the black rage and the associated visions.

[the jeske]

How they should return?

In a big box, with 2 minor characters attached to them in some way through fluff. Probably one every 2-3months,but that is the gamer perspective not a manufacturing/sales one.

[Claws and Effect]

I'd be okay with the Sanguinor being Sanguinius' soul, or a portion of it. He pops up to save his sons from certain doom once in a while then promptly disappears because he can't remain in the material world for more than an hour ir so at a time.

 

Actual resurrection? No.

[Mellow]

I feel sad for Guilliman. He thought he killed Alpharius but he didn't. Dorn did!

 

I'm sure Dorn gets the giggles over that because as we all know Dorn is the class clown and not dull as dishwater like he makes out to be.

[Knight of the Raven]

I didn't say he didn't die, but that when he died, he transferred his soul to one of his Marines who then literally became Alpharius. Those two did not give out secrets or information unless it was absolutely necessary, and it may have been the first time one of them were able to do that.

It comes down to the same thing though.

That is the true power of the Alpha Legion. Every Alpha Legionnaire is Alpharius, but if he dies, Alpharius is still not dead. Alpharius is more than an individual, he is a concept.

"The Alpha Legion isn’t just an organisation or the people behind it. Alpharius is an idea; that idea is not so easily destroyed."

[Doghouse]

If they are to do it I'd like to see someone like Dorn turn up bearded, bitter and scarred at the head of his own army. It'll be odd if these guys have just been sat around twiddling their thumbs and just hiding in a cave somewhere. They are legendary and inspirational figures it's hard for me to imagine how they wouldn't have made an impact on the universe even in their absence.

Someone like Dorn turning up with his own fleet and demanding to be treated as an equal would make for an interesting narrative. Just turning up and going "Go Imperium!" would be weird given that they may have seen the slow rot of the Imperium creeping in over the millennia first hand unlike Robo-Guilliman.

[deathspectersgt7]

IN silver plastic eggs. and just add water .

[No Foes Remain]

If they are to do it I'd like to see someone like Dorn turn up bearded, bitter and scarred at the head of his own army. It'll be odd if these guys have just been sat around twiddling their thumbs and just hiding in a cave somewhere. They are legendary and inspirational figures it's hard for me to imagine how they wouldn't have made an impact on the universe even in their absence.

Someone like Dorn turning up with his own fleet and demanding to be treated as an equal would make for an interesting narrative. Just turning up and going "Go Imperium!" would be weird given that they may have seen the slow rot of the Imperium creeping in over the millennia first hand unlike Robo-Guilliman.

Nah, a broken and battered ship appearing on the outer edges of Sol going reactor dead as soon as it arrives. Imperial Fist teams board it and begin searching it deck by deck until they reach the bridge where they find a demi-god. Golden armour battered and worn, weapons broken at his feet. His face old and scarred, turns to face the boarding teams. "My sons. I have returned."

 

I always though of him as a broken man, in spirit, after the Heresy. He failed his one duty, and to him duty was everything, so maybe he went on his own penence crusade going further than the iron cage in terms of a literal pain glove which only he could do, where only he could go. Perhaps thats where he lost his physical Imperial Fists.

[Mellow]

Primarchs don't age. So none of them will look "old".

[Knight of the Raven]

Do we have evidence primarchs don't get old* though? We've seen them live in realspace a few millenia tops. Eternity is a long time. They might start getting wrinkles when they hit eighty thousands years, get senile thirty millenia later and die of old age two hundreds centuries after that for all we know.

 

*because they do age, else they'd have remained children after getting out of their growing vats.

[bluntblade]

Horus comes out of his seeming eternity on Molech looking far older, if I remember correctly

[slitth]

Started to get off on a tangent in the discussion of the retcon to Sanguinius' death in Rumors, cut my answer down and decided I wanted to talk about this question separately.

We know that the primarchs are coming- we're already two-deep in gargantuan posthuman demigods and a third is almost certainly coming very soon. The time for debating *if* primarchs belong in 40K has passed, for good or ill, now let's talk about *how* they should come back: in what form, by what story mechanisms, and to what story ends. I'll start with the Lion:

If GW bring him back and it's "LOL THE FALLEN ARE THE REAL LOYALISTS" or "LOL HE'S THE ONE WHO TURNS TO CHAOS" I will buy a one-way ticket to Nottingham to set myself on fire in front of GW in protest. Because that's lazy writing. It's the easy way to generate angst, it's the obvious twist ending, it's just... cartoony and facile.

When The Lion comes back, he CANNOT be the one to fall to Chaos, and the answer to the loyalties of the Fallen CANNOT be a pat "they're traitors" or "they're loyalists." Can The Lion be a "traitor?" Sure, because who defines the term? El'Jonson may see Guilliman's actions as usurpation and adamantly refuse to go along. He'll fight to throw the Chaos Legions back into the Warp, sure, but in that case he'd also be looking to knock Guilliman down a peg or three. As for the Fallen, he could become the Redeeming Angel, offering reconciliation to the repentant while crushing the truly corrupt without mercy. The Unforgiven could fracture along doctrinal lines, some chapters overcome with relief born of absolution while others double down on their insularity and sense of guilt. All of them follow their fathers' commandments, because Loyalty is its Own Reward, but not all of them accept the idea of letting the Fallen "get away with it."

This introduces a Loyalist primarch who still has reason for his legion (let's call the Unforgiven what they've always been) Not Playing Well With Others. It's true to who he's been portrayed as, doesn't all over the fluff that's gone before, and it doesn't reduce him to a sycophantic also-ran next to his blue brother.

What do you guys think? What other primarchs are you concerned about seeing come back? How do you think they should?

I think that the Lion is "loyal".

But I not sure that the Dark Angels are.

They could be the Unforgiven because they do not forgive the Lion from "abandoning" them and/or Caliban.

Or they do not think they are forgive by the Lion.

Anyhow it like the idea that the death of Caliban was a victory for chaos.

The Lion and his forces was down for the count and all that need to make the victory complete was for Luther to finish it.

But Luther would not. He would turn back and persuade the force of Caliban to stand down.

Chaos would not allow this, they took Luther out of the game. Leaving the Caliban forces leaderless.

Then chaos destroyed Caliban, left the blame on the Lion and his forces.

The punishment for this crime was to walk the path of the exiles.

The lions force was sent away to suffer and later be recovered by the Caliban forces.

And then why would beg for forgiveness for abandoning them, for leaving them to rot and for destroying Caliban.

[bluntblade]

Then they'd be the Unforgiving. I'm not sure you've quite got the full narrative of how Caliban went. The Lion was lost in the wreck of Caliban - his loyal sons blame themslves for the potential to rebel, and are bound to their guilt until the last Fallen Angel repents and/or dies.

[slitth]

 

I think if Alpharius did manage to weasel out of a death so final that his twin felt it and knew his brother was dead, it would be far more obnoxious than awesome.

 

An interesting thought on that... What if Alpharious could relocate his soul in to one of the Marines with his Geneseed when that body died?  It would give full credence to the idea of "I am Alpharious" being an actual, literal thing.

 

It's not like the Emperor hasn't shown a similar ability, moving through bodies throughout the centuries before the death of the shamans.

 

 

I believe that Alpharius the man and Omegon the man may die.

But Alpharius the Primarch is alive as long as the Alpha Legion is alive.

He is a concept, an idea. The reason why a legionary can say "I am Alpharius" without lying.

 

Alpharius the Primarch is the total opposite of Horus Lupercal or any other Primarch for that matter.

Horus and the others are all about the man, the man give focus and drive.

By kill or corrupting the man and you shatter the focus and drive.

Alpharius has removed this weakness by separating the Primarch and the man.

This open up to a different set of problems, as the concept of Alpharius the Primarch is an utopian ideal.

And the Alpha Legion have a saying about utopian ideal and mankind.

[slitth]

Then they'd be the Unforgiving. I'm not sure you've quite got the full narrative of how Caliban went. The Lion was lost in the wreck of Caliban - his loyal sons blame themslves for the potential to rebel, and are bound to their guilt until the last Fallen Angel repents and/or dies.

 

Until the HH book about the Fall of Caliban is out, then every thing is hidden in shadows and lies.

And the force from Caliban are still unforgiven by the Lion, that why they where sent to Caliban in the first place.

They may be proud of this fact. Carrying the name as a barge of twisted pride, instead of shame.

 

But all in all, it most like strange forward. The traiders was banish and the Dark Angles are loyal.