Die for the Emperor, or die trying - AM 8th Index review

[Feral_80]

It was fun to do!

 

As for the Fast Attack slots...hmmm they seem not that appealing at the moment. Perhaps a combination of Hellhound variants (not the regular Hellhound, which seems really lame) and Rough Riders. If only, because I have 15 Krieg cavalry that I *need* to field somehow!

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Well 3x 5-man rough rider squads is only 150 points so that's a fairly easy way to accomplish 3 fast attack. That's 30 wounds worth of guardsmen with hunting lances and 10" move. 30 infantry squad guys with no special or heavy weapons would only be 30 points less.

 

I still think he vehicles need to be tested in battle. Having never had monstrous creatures it's hard to say how much better they'll be but considering how bloody hard to kill things like riptides and wraith lords were in 7th I think the added durability is not to be ignored.

[Brother Talarian]

I have to agree. I don't see LRBT being worse off in 8th, rather, much better.

 

7th = Fire my Battlecannon, scatter off. Welp... maybe next turn you'll kill something.

Next turn= Fire, scatter a bit, kill 2 marines. Wooo.

Etc. 

 

Sure, if you get a direct hit, and they happen to be in the open, awesome you got several kills.

 

8th= Fire battlecannon at a multi-wound target. Roll a D6 D3 Dmg. Pretty sweet. Can either do very little or nothing, or do HUGE amounts of dmg.

Meanwhile, fire your 2 HBs at the infantry that's running up the table, provide cover fire for your troops.

Then fire your lascannon at a vehicle and take a chunk off there.

 

It's huge that you can fire all your weapons, and split the fire as well. They're also a lot more survivable... I don't really see any big cons for these guys. 

 

 

Someone else mentioned this, probably more fluffy and fun than competitive, but you can have 2-3 4 command squad vets riding in a chimera with someone that provides orders. Give them all special weapons and have them roll around and take out key units.

 

Roll up the flank, get a good shot on that character that's providing an AoE buff. Charge in your chimera to support your squads that just jumped out. Take an objective. Super sweet.

[HenricusTyranicus]

The big thing that makes Russes good, in my opinion, is the sheer number of multiwound infantry running about this edition. If we get a solid hit on a primaris squad, we'll kill them in almost the same numbers we'd kill marines. Ditto for a lot of expensive, multiwound models.

[Feral_80]

I don't think I ever meant that LR was better in 7th. It was completely useless, almost no army used to field it. I believe it has been improved in 8th. Still, being better than completely useless does not necessarily mean being good...

[DarthWaffle]

Aweh man. Veterans are Elite now?

 

There goes building the mech guard army...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Aweh man. Veterans are Elite now?

 

There goes building the mech guard army...

Two words: Vanguard Detachment

 

As many vets as you want with no troop tax. Or you could always go old school mech and do regular infantry mech like we had to back in 3rd edition. To old curmudgeons like me this veterans everywhere stuff is rubbish. Back in the day they were a 0-1 choice.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I don't think I ever meant that LR was better in 7th. It was completely useless, almost no army used to field it. I believe it has been improved in 8th. Still, being better than completely useless does not necessarily mean being good...

Yeah LRMBT was quite terrible in 7th although I still took them because I'm stubborn and old school. That's probably why I lost almost every single game of 7th I played with Guard using my Vanquisher and two vanilla Russes.

[Otto von Bludd]

Thanks all for the replies! Just a couple of things.

Nicodemus, indeed I forgot the Punisher (added now), but I actually consider it one of the better variants.

Now Ratlings *might* be good in numbers, but my greatest concern is that to really hurt a character you need to roll 6s, and roll many of them. so, you'll need many Ratlings. And I both hate the models and think that, while cheap, a unit won't last a single turn of return fire. So your snipers could quickly evaporate. They are certainly better than guardsmen snipers however.

Personally, I prefer the traditional AM approach: to target that character who is not the closest enemy, first obliterate those units that are shielding him with sheer amount of explosions he'll be next.

Otto, yes the Valkyrie has its advantages and allows you to redeploy a unit with excellent range and mobility...but, to do what? Maybe grab objectives, but only if there are no enemies nearby. I mean, the way grav chute (and deep strike) works now means that you disembark over 9" away from any enemy. And your flamers are 8", and your meltaguns rock at 6". You might try to embark Ogryns and charge, but again a 9" roll is risky. The old-style suicide squads do not work this way anymore. I'm a bit puzzled by the real use of the Valkyrie mobility and utility as a transport, since almost all of our squads won't survive a turn away from the rest of the army.

And generally, yes I know that combining detachments allows you to pretty much field anything. But I was trying to avoid this 7th-ed. mentality, and keep it simple using no more than a couple of detachments in my average game.

Grav Chute Insertion is one of the only methods, in the whole game, of deploying from a transport that allows you to move the disembarked units after disembarking. That alone makes it tremendously powerful. How does 3 command squads with 4 split firing meltas each moving into 6" melta range after dropping out of a Valkyrie sound? Goodbye just about anything. I think that image will prove my point, even Imperial Knights will be trying to flee off the board if a Valkyrie with that kind of payload is coming near! Nuances like this, things that aren't immediately obvious yet have the potential to totally change the perception of a units power level is why I think your analysis is simply too soon. Though I repeat that I respect the amount of effort you put in!

Edit: I worded the above slightly wrong, all models can move after disembarking from a transport, but they may only disembark before the transport moves. The Valkyrie is an exception to this, and models may disembark after it has moved at any point along its movement path. The end result is still what I posted above.

[Brother Talarian]

Thanks all for the replies! Just a couple of things.

Nicodemus, indeed I forgot the Punisher (added now), but I actually consider it one of the better variants.

Now Ratlings *might* be good in numbers, but my greatest concern is that to really hurt a character you need to roll 6s, and roll many of them. so, you'll need many Ratlings. And I both hate the models and think that, while cheap, a unit won't last a single turn of return fire. So your snipers could quickly evaporate. They are certainly better than guardsmen snipers however.

Personally, I prefer the traditional AM approach: to target that character who is not the closest enemy, first obliterate those units that are shielding him with sheer amount of explosions he'll be next.

Otto, yes the Valkyrie has its advantages and allows you to redeploy a unit with excellent range and mobility...but, to do what? Maybe grab objectives, but only if there are no enemies nearby. I mean, the way grav chute (and deep strike) works now means that you disembark over 9" away from any enemy. And your flamers are 8", and your meltaguns rock at 6". You might try to embark Ogryns and charge, but again a 9" roll is risky. The old-style suicide squads do not work this way anymore. I'm a bit puzzled by the real use of the Valkyrie mobility and utility as a transport, since almost all of our squads won't survive a turn away from the rest of the army.

And generally, yes I know that combining detachments allows you to pretty much field anything. But I was trying to avoid this 7th-ed. mentality, and keep it simple using no more than a couple of detachments in my average game.

Grav Chute Insertion is one of the only methods of deploying from a transport that allows you to move after disembarking. That alone makes it tremendously powerful. How does 4 command squads with 4 meltas each moving into 6" melta range after dropping out of a Valkyrie sound? Goodbye just about anything. I think that image will prove my point!

How sure are we that they can move after? Has it been confirmed? I can see arguments for both ways.

[Gothical]

I have to agree. I don't see LRBT being worse off in 8th, rather, much better.

 

7th = Fire my Battlecannon, scatter off. Welp... maybe next turn you'll kill something.

Next turn= Fire, scatter a bit, kill 2 marines. Wooo.

Etc. 

 

Sure, if you get a direct hit, and they happen to be in the open, awesome you got several kills.

 

8th= Fire battlecannon at a multi-wound target. Roll a D6 D3 Dmg. Pretty sweet. Can either do very little or nothing, or do HUGE amounts of dmg.

Meanwhile, fire your 2 HBs at the infantry that's running up the table, provide cover fire for your troops.

Then fire your lascannon at a vehicle and take a chunk off there.

 

It's huge that you can fire all your weapons, and split the fire as well. They're also a lot more survivable... I don't really see any big cons for these guys. 

 

 

Someone else mentioned this, probably more fluffy and fun than competitive, but you can have 2-3 4 command squad vets riding in a chimera with someone that provides orders. Give them all special weapons and have them roll around and take out key units.

 

Roll up the flank, get a good shot on that character that's providing an AoE buff. Charge in your chimera to support your squads that just jumped out. Take an objective. Super sweet.

 

Remember, it is D6 shots not D6 hits. That means on average you will be doing 1.94 points of damage to a T7 Sv3+ unit like a Dreadnought or Rhino, killing 1 Space Marine (but not a Terminator), or 1 regular Primaris Marine (but won't kill a Primaris in Gravis Armour).

[Otto von Bludd]

Thanks all for the replies! Just a couple of things.

Nicodemus, indeed I forgot the Punisher (added now), but I actually consider it one of the better variants.

Now Ratlings *might* be good in numbers, but my greatest concern is that to really hurt a character you need to roll 6s, and roll many of them. so, you'll need many Ratlings. And I both hate the models and think that, while cheap, a unit won't last a single turn of return fire. So your snipers could quickly evaporate. They are certainly better than guardsmen snipers however.

Personally, I prefer the traditional AM approach: to target that character who is not the closest enemy, first obliterate those units that are shielding him with sheer amount of explosions he'll be next.

Otto, yes the Valkyrie has its advantages and allows you to redeploy a unit with excellent range and mobility...but, to do what? Maybe grab objectives, but only if there are no enemies nearby. I mean, the way grav chute (and deep strike) works now means that you disembark over 9" away from any enemy. And your flamers are 8", and your meltaguns rock at 6". You might try to embark Ogryns and charge, but again a 9" roll is risky. The old-style suicide squads do not work this way anymore. I'm a bit puzzled by the real use of the Valkyrie mobility and utility as a transport, since almost all of our squads won't survive a turn away from the rest of the army.

And generally, yes I know that combining detachments allows you to pretty much field anything. But I was trying to avoid this 7th-ed. mentality, and keep it simple using no more than a couple of detachments in my average game.

Grav Chute Insertion is one of the only methods of deploying from a transport that allows you to move after disembarking. That alone makes it tremendously powerful. How does 4 command squads with 4 meltas each moving into 6" melta range after dropping out of a Valkyrie sound? Goodbye just about anything. I think that image will prove my point!

How sure are we that they can move after? Has it been confirmed? I can see arguments for both ways.

Read the Grav Chute Insertion rule. You may disembark from the vehicle at any point during its move. All other transports you must disembark before the transport moves. That means when you disembark from a Chimera, it has to be before the Chimera drives anywhere. Not so with the Valkyrie. You may fly anywhere and disembark at any point during its move so long as you are 9" away from enemy models. Move Valk up to 45" -> Disembark 9 inches away -> Walk 6 inches into melta range - > Unleash. The rule is very clear, what makes you think there is an argument to the contrary?

[Brother Talarian]

Thanks all for the replies! Just a couple of things.

Nicodemus, indeed I forgot the Punisher (added now), but I actually consider it one of the better variants.

Now Ratlings *might* be good in numbers, but my greatest concern is that to really hurt a character you need to roll 6s, and roll many of them. so, you'll need many Ratlings. And I both hate the models and think that, while cheap, a unit won't last a single turn of return fire. So your snipers could quickly evaporate. They are certainly better than guardsmen snipers however.

Personally, I prefer the traditional AM approach: to target that character who is not the closest enemy, first obliterate those units that are shielding him with sheer amount of explosions he'll be next.

Otto, yes the Valkyrie has its advantages and allows you to redeploy a unit with excellent range and mobility...but, to do what? Maybe grab objectives, but only if there are no enemies nearby. I mean, the way grav chute (and deep strike) works now means that you disembark over 9" away from any enemy. And your flamers are 8", and your meltaguns rock at 6". You might try to embark Ogryns and charge, but again a 9" roll is risky. The old-style suicide squads do not work this way anymore. I'm a bit puzzled by the real use of the Valkyrie mobility and utility as a transport, since almost all of our squads won't survive a turn away from the rest of the army.

And generally, yes I know that combining detachments allows you to pretty much field anything. But I was trying to avoid this 7th-ed. mentality, and keep it simple using no more than a couple of detachments in my average game.

Grav Chute Insertion is one of the only methods of deploying from a transport that allows you to move after disembarking. That alone makes it tremendously powerful. How does 4 command squads with 4 meltas each moving into 6" melta range after dropping out of a Valkyrie sound? Goodbye just about anything. I think that image will prove my point!

How sure are we that they can move after? Has it been confirmed? I can see arguments for both ways.

Read the Grav Chute Insertion rule. You may disembark from the vehicle at any point during its move. All other transports you must disembark before the transport moves. That means when you disembark from a Chimera, it has to be before the Chimera drives anywhere. Not so with the Valkyrie. You may fly anywhere and disembark at any point during its move so long as you are 9" away from enemy models. Move Valk up to 45" -> Disembark 9 inches away -> Walk 6 inches into melta range - > Unleash. The rule is very clear, what makes you think there is an argument to the contrary?

Yes, I've read the rules. I'm saying that I could see people arguing that the Valks movement negates the troops movement. As in, since it has already moved, they can no longer move. Based on every other rule indicating that models that somehow appear on the tabletop must be at 9" away from the enemy, and can't move afterwords.

Based on these rulings people can argue the contrary, and that once you gave-chute in, that is considered your movement and that you can only shoot.

[Otto von Bludd]

Thanks all for the replies! Just a couple of things.

Nicodemus, indeed I forgot the Punisher (added now), but I actually consider it one of the better variants.

Now Ratlings *might* be good in numbers, but my greatest concern is that to really hurt a character you need to roll 6s, and roll many of them. so, you'll need many Ratlings. And I both hate the models and think that, while cheap, a unit won't last a single turn of return fire. So your snipers could quickly evaporate. They are certainly better than guardsmen snipers however.

Personally, I prefer the traditional AM approach: to target that character who is not the closest enemy, first obliterate those units that are shielding him with sheer amount of explosions he'll be next.

Otto, yes the Valkyrie has its advantages and allows you to redeploy a unit with excellent range and mobility...but, to do what? Maybe grab objectives, but only if there are no enemies nearby. I mean, the way grav chute (and deep strike) works now means that you disembark over 9" away from any enemy. And your flamers are 8", and your meltaguns rock at 6". You might try to embark Ogryns and charge, but again a 9" roll is risky. The old-style suicide squads do not work this way anymore. I'm a bit puzzled by the real use of the Valkyrie mobility and utility as a transport, since almost all of our squads won't survive a turn away from the rest of the army.

And generally, yes I know that combining detachments allows you to pretty much field anything. But I was trying to avoid this 7th-ed. mentality, and keep it simple using no more than a couple of detachments in my average game.

Grav Chute Insertion is one of the only methods of deploying from a transport that allows you to move after disembarking. That alone makes it tremendously powerful. How does 4 command squads with 4 meltas each moving into 6" melta range after dropping out of a Valkyrie sound? Goodbye just about anything. I think that image will prove my point!

How sure are we that they can move after? Has it been confirmed? I can see arguments for both ways.

Read the Grav Chute Insertion rule. You may disembark from the vehicle at any point during its move. All other transports you must disembark before the transport moves. That means when you disembark from a Chimera, it has to be before the Chimera drives anywhere. Not so with the Valkyrie. You may fly anywhere and disembark at any point during its move so long as you are 9" away from enemy models. Move Valk up to 45" -> Disembark 9 inches away -> Walk 6 inches into melta range - > Unleash. The rule is very clear, what makes you think there is an argument to the contrary?

Yes, I've read the rules. I'm saying that I could see people arguing that the Valks movement negates the troops movement. As in, since it has already moved, they can no longer move. Based on every other rule indicating that models that somehow appear on the tabletop must be at 9" away from the enemy, and can't move afterwords.

Based on these rulings people can argue the contrary, and that once you gave-chute in, that is considered your movement and that you can only shoot.

Grav chute insertion states you may disembark from the transport at any point. Disembark, not deep strike. The rules for disembarking from a transport are written in the core rules and do not prevent you from moving after you disembark. For anyone to argue otherwise they would have to point out something that states you can't move that overrides the rule saying you can. I'm not aware of any such rule right now.

[Brother Talarian]

Fair enough. Though I don't think that this is how it was intended to be. I used the 9" rule as several units have this special rule and can't move after being 9" away, so I believe they intended it to be this way as well. 

 

I don't have the rules on hand so it's hard to make a counterpoint, but at this point I'm just suggestion counterpoints for the sake of discussion. I'm interested to hear (read) what others think. 

 

Of course I'd be incredibly happy if we can grav-chute then move. Though, I'm not convinced that this was how the rule was intended to be. 

 

 

EDIT: Also, when you disembark from a vehicle it doesn't say anything about being 9" away from an enemy, if I remember correctly. In this case it does, if it actually says disembark, which makes that argument a bit wonky. 

 

EDIT2: Don't mean to be derailing the thread, Feral. But I guess it can be seen as part of the Valk review, and if it's pretty good, of VERY good. :)

[Feral_80]

Hmmm Otto I don't know, you might be right here about the grav chute rule. I did not see it like that initially. But it may be not 100% clear...argh, game's not out yet and we already need FAQs.

[morroccomole]

With regard to the melta-variant of the hellhound, I feel like the new template-free system actually does it justice. In 7th, I'd try to get it down the board (into melta range) PDQ, meaning it was the sore thumb sticking out of my gun line. It would realistically get one turn of shooting and, depending on the size of the model under the template, it was fairly easy to scatter off. Now the points are lower, the speed is lesser, and the cannon hits somewhat more reliably. Throw in the additional survivability of vehicles, and the threat they pose in an opponent's mind, and I'll  be picking up a second. Happy hunting, gunners!

[KGatch113]

Hey uhm...what happened to the Vendetta? Or did they get rid of those when I wasn't looking....

[Gothical]

With regard to the melta-variant of the hellhound, I feel like the new template-free system actually does it justice. In 7th, I'd try to get it down the board (into melta range) PDQ, meaning it was the sore thumb sticking out of my gun line. It would realistically get one turn of shooting and, depending on the size of the model under the template, it was fairly easy to scatter off. Now the points are lower, the speed is lesser, and the cannon hits somewhat more reliably. Throw in the additional survivability of vehicles, and the threat they pose in an opponent's mind, and I'll  be picking up a second. Happy hunting, gunners!

 

With a hull Multi-Melta you're looking at 2-4 pretty powerful anti-tank shots (especially at half range), which is certainly an improvement over the blast template when targeting single models. Good catch.

 

However, one major drawback of the new rules is that the Devildog will only be hitting on 5s on the turns it moves, so it looks like someone replaced the Gunners with Orks. You could try to advance and pop Smoke Launchers, then Melta in your next turn, but the opponent can move the target model away and so it is harder to get the 12" damage bonus, so via that strategy it could be a Command re-roll hog.

[duz_]

Hey uhm...what happened to the Vendetta? Or did they get rid of those when I wasn't looking....

Yup old mantra of no model no rules

Hopefully FW release the rules for it

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

@Gothical it's true Devil Dogs will be hitting on 5s but at least we can shoot everything on 5 instead of having to snap fire one of the guns. It's a trade off I suppose.

 

I think that Guard will have an unequalled ability to hoard command points and those reroll stratagems may well prove key for us at crucial moments.

[Shamansky]

 

Hey uhm...what happened to the Vendetta? Or did they get rid of those when I wasn't looking....

Yup old mantra of no model no rules

Hopefully FW release the rules for it

 

This is tupid. GW and FW are almost the same company. Why do they do this to us? I'm glad that i bought a couple of hundreds of magnets. At leats my pilots will have combat sorties flying Valkyries

[duz_]

With the changes to scatter and buffs to ogryns and bullgryns my valk may see some table time while my vendetta is on care and maintenance. :)

[Cap'm Heckus]

So, army building: with MT now being troops, can we now have armies that are all MT with conscripts and tanks supporting them (no infantry squads)? Interesting.

 

I'm going to have to rethink my vet squads, especially since 2 of them have modeled demo charge guys. I will also miss platoons. But my rough riders may get some action now.

 

Overall, cautiously optimistic.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Hey uhm...what happened to the Vendetta? Or did they get rid of those when I wasn't looking....

 

 

 

 

Hey uhm...what happened to the Vendetta? Or did they get rid of those when I wasn't looking....

Yup old mantra of no model no rules

Hopefully FW release the rules for it

 

This is tupid. GW and FW are almost the same company. Why do they do this to us? I'm glad that i bought a couple of hundreds of magnets. At leats my pilots will have combat sorties flying Valkyries

 

 

Folks, Vendettas have been out of the Imperial Guard codex ever since it became Astra Militarum several years ago (I can't even remember, was it 2015? 2014?).

 

Forge World has said they will be releasing data slates for all of their models before the end of June.

 

Being upset over Vendettas not being in the index is like being upset that Death Korps of Krieg aren't in there. You've needed forgeworld to field those rules for years. So nothing has changed. I think FW may have even said their data slates will be free but don't quote me on that. Not to worry, as long as they're still selling Vendetta kits there will be rules.