Die for the Emperor, or die trying - AM 8th Index review

[NatBrannigan]

Great review thanks, really looking forward to getting to grips with this.

 

Luckily the units I favour seem to have come off quite well here! Not sure about the killing power of a Leman Russ but I'll still take them because... Because they're Leman Russ Battle Tanks! That's all the reason you should need ;)

 

Brigades are looking like the way to go so I'll be getting some Rough Riders built to fill some of those Fast Attack slots. Also like the look of Hellhounds in all three flavours.

 

Some questions though if you please! Chem / Flame cannons on Hellhound variants, they can move and shoot with no penalty I assume? And hull mounted Heavy Flamers at the same time as well?

 

A choppy Inquisitor and Henchman Warband could start in a Valk (Inq special rule lets them start in any Imperium Transport, Huzzah!), get zoomed across the table, Grav Chute in, move right up close to the enemy and then charge?

 

Still don't like that Bullgryns don't add to the save of units cowering heroically standing behind their Slab Shields, but since Bullgryns are now really good I can't gripe too much! It's also a shame that Amphibious is gone. Utterly useless of course, but one of the first games I ever played was a big, 6 person a side game. Someone at the club had spent months making a big river with three big bridges that my team had to get across. I was leant an armoured fist platoon and some Artillery for the game. First turn I plunged into the River and ended up behind the enemy. The Platoon was then wiped out in short order but still! Good times :)

[Just Another Guard Player]

As someone who has been slowly building up Death Korps including two batteries of six earthshakers I'm really not feeling too happy about the the d6 shots thing in place of templates. The point of them was always if you got that solid shot on target with the template after scatter over the horde of orks or infantry you could easily blow away 6 or 7 casualties every time and get in some much needed oomph mid table. After all that cash investment I'm really not chuffed now at firing a whole battery and congratulations you killed three orks with an artillery barrage with your 18 to hit dice. Unless I misunderstand how it works now? If my earthshaker lands a single "hit" and then I roll for damage and get 3 wounds, are the three wounds taken by the entire unit or just to a single model?

[Formerly Wu]

It's also a shame that Amphibious is gone. Utterly useless of course, but one of the first games I ever played was a big, 6 person a side game. Someone at the club had spent months making a big river with three big bridges that my team had to get across. I was leant an armoured fist platoon and some Artillery for the game. First turn I plunged into the River and ended up behind the enemy. The Platoon was then wiped out in short order but still! Good times

True, but I feel that Amphibious is something you can really add back in as a scenario rule rather than needing to be in the core Chimera rules.

[duz_]

As someone who has been slowly building up Death Korps including two batteries of six earthshakers I'm really not feeling too happy about the the d6 shots thing in place of templates. The point of them was always if you got that solid shot on target with the template after scatter over the horde of orks or infantry you could easily blow away 6 or 7 casualties every time and get in some much needed oomph mid table. After all that cash investment I'm really not chuffed now at firing a whole battery and congratulations you killed three orks with an artillery barrage with your 18 to hit dice. Unless I misunderstand how it works now? If my earthshaker lands a single "hit" and then I roll for damage and get 3 wounds, are the three wounds taken by the entire unit or just to a single model?

It will hard to compare blasts + scatter vs the new system without going back and playing many games and recording the result of avg number of units hit, scatter effects and complete misses.

I think swapping large blasts for D6 hits instead I think is fair.

The issue is that you need to roll a 4+ for each of those D6 hits to see if you stick a wound. To me that appears to be where the system is worse than before, but better than rolling to hit first then rolling the D6.

 

There is a difference between wounds and Damage. Wounds can overflow damage cannot. So you can do 1 wound and 2 damage which will hurt multi wound models more, but make no difference to single wound models. Damage is a good mechanic IMHO to increase weapon output without increasing hits or strength. The latter which doesnt help with multi wound models.

 

Id give it a go first before throwing all those nice Kriegers away. If you think its terrible then go back to 7th ed rules play a few games record the result and do a comparison. If you end up doing that please post the results up here! ;)

[Just Another Guard Player]

I think its that last part of difference between damage and wounds I don't quite understand. If I put up some numbers could someone talk me through it? Say I fire an earthshaker at a squad of ten guys each with 1 wound. I roll my D6 shots and I've come up 5. I've rolled my 5d6 shots and only 1 of them is a 4+ (go figure). I rolled a single D3 and it does 3 damage. My question is have I therefore killed 3 single wound models in that unit or have I only killed a single model because it was one shot that hit and therefore all that 3 damage on that d3 could only be applied to a single model no matter what it may by and if that means 2 of that damage went to waste despite there still being 9 perfectly good targets in that unit, that's just tough? Is it the former case or the latter?

[duz_]

You would have really killed a single wound model (no overflow), really killed a 2 wound model (no overflow), just killed a 3 wound model and seriously hurt a 4 wound model etc

Wounds and Mortal wounds are the only type that will overflow. Damage (D) does not

[Plasmablasts]

When you roll for damage, it's against a single model. So, yes, the two overkill wounds inflicted on that single wound model are wasted. The only time that I can think of when multi-damage attacks have a benefit against single-wound models is if they have a Feel No Pain-like ability, like Disgustingly Resilient, as the save from that appears to be taken after damage is rolled, so more damage inflicted means more rolls that could be failed.

[H311fi5h]

I think its that last part of difference between damage and wounds I don't quite understand. If I put up some numbers could someone talk me through it? Say I fire an earthshaker at a squad of ten guys each with 1 wound. I roll my D6 shots and I've come up 5. I've rolled my 5d6 shots and only 1 of them is a 4+ (go figure). I rolled a single D3 and it does 3 damage. My question is have I therefore killed 3 single wound models in that unit or have I only killed a single model because it was one shot that hit and therefore all that 3 damage on that d3 could only be applied to a single model no matter what it may by and if that means 2 of that damage went to waste despite there still being 9 perfectly good targets in that unit, that's just tough? Is it the former case or the latter?

 

Don't think of your Earthshaker Cannons as Marine killers anymore. What you want to be targeting is vehicles and monsters, or multi-wound infantry like Primaris and Terminators.

With strength 9 you gonna wound T8 on 3's, which is really helpful. That means against the typical armored vehicle (T8 3+) you do 1,99 average damage per shot. That is excellent, even better than a Demolisher, and miles better than any other Leman Russ variant. With your amount of artillery you can basically delete 2 vehicles a turn anywhere on the battlefield. That's scary. Combine that with the massively improved firepower of the basic infantry with 4 shots FRFSRF and D6 hits for Flamers to clear hordes, and Death Korps is looking pretty amazing.

[Otto von Bludd]

Think of your Earthshakers as Flak 88s now.  The Basilisk is very good, definitely far far better than it was in 7th.

[Gothical]

 

Don't think of your Earthshaker Cannons as Marine killers anymore. What you want to be targeting is vehicles and monsters, or multi-wound infantry like Primaris and Terminators.

With strength 9 you gonna wound T8 on 3's, which is really helpful. That means against the typical armored vehicle (T8 3+) you do 1,99 average damage per shot. That is excellent, even better than a Demolisher, and miles better than any other Leman Russ variant. With your amount of artillery you can basically delete 2 vehicles a turn anywhere on the battlefield. That's scary. Combine that with the massively improved firepower of the basic infantry with 4 shots FRFSRF and D6 hits for Flamers to clear hordes, and Death Korps is looking pretty amazing.

 

 

I know it was aimed at another player, but this makes me feel a little better about my Basilisk. I hadn't considered thought of that way of looking at Earthshakers, which is odd given I converted a tank-hunter Basilisk and always used it in place of a Vanquisher. Good to know that plan still works, I must get around to painting that beast.

 

My Armoured Regiment lost their Vanquishers in a fighitng retreat from a Tyranid invasion, but came across a few survivors of an Artillery Company during their flight. Post-evacuation the Munitorum listed the AC as destroyed so the survivors had nowhere to go, and amalgamated into the Armoured Regiment as stop-gap tank killers following Creed's call for all available Cadian forces to return to defend the homeworld.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I always used Basilisks as tank hunters too so this is fitting for me at least. You'd think mobile artillery would be a bit better against infantry.

[micahwc]

I built a taurox prime last night and it took me a while to settle on a weapons load out. My thoughts are that to use it as part of a fire base you want the longer ranged firepower, but the gatling cannon is just awesome, so I went with twin autocannons and the gatling cannon. My idea is that they can support from range at a fire base, and if enemies start getting close the gatling cannon can help weed them out a bit.

 

Question: Do models with dedicated transports have to start in their dedicated transport? I didn't see anything about this in the rules. Can I bring two Taurox primes as dedicated transports for scions, and then have the scions deep strike while the taurox just sits in the back line shooting autocannons?

[H311fi5h]

You don't buy transports for a specific unit anymore from what I understand.

The respective detachment allows to bring a certain amount of transports, and you can do with them whatever you want. Start empty, start with a unit inside, pack it full of characters you don't want to get sniped first turn...

[WarriorFish]

That's my understanding too, certainly makes transports simpler :)

[Just Another Guard Player]

 

I think its that last part of difference between damage and wounds I don't quite understand. If I put up some numbers could someone talk me through it? Say I fire an earthshaker at a squad of ten guys each with 1 wound. I roll my D6 shots and I've come up 5. I've rolled my 5d6 shots and only 1 of them is a 4+ (go figure). I rolled a single D3 and it does 3 damage. My question is have I therefore killed 3 single wound models in that unit or have I only killed a single model because it was one shot that hit and therefore all that 3 damage on that d3 could only be applied to a single model no matter what it may by and if that means 2 of that damage went to waste despite there still being 9 perfectly good targets in that unit, that's just tough? Is it the former case or the latter?

 

Don't think of your Earthshaker Cannons as Marine killers anymore. What you want to be targeting is vehicles and monsters, or multi-wound infantry like Primaris and Terminators.

With strength 9 you gonna wound T8 on 3's, which is really helpful. That means against the typical armored vehicle (T8 3+) you do 1,99 average damage per shot. That is excellent, even better than a Demolisher, and miles better than any other Leman Russ variant. With your amount of artillery you can basically delete 2 vehicles a turn anywhere on the battlefield. That's scary. Combine that with the massively improved firepower of the basic infantry with 4 shots FRFSRF and D6 hits for Flamers to clear hordes, and Death Korps is looking pretty amazing.

 

 

 

Think of your Earthshakers as Flak 88s now.  The Basilisk is very good, definitely far far better than it was in 7th.

 

I thank you all for your clarifications. But sadly I find my despondency only deepened. Whatever use they may now have, it is not the purpose for which I bought them. I bought six howitzers, not six anti tank guns. I planned my army accordingly around the base assumptions of what they did and how they did it. I now don't own anything that fulfills the role they played (lobbing massive blob killing shells).  I think I'll just stick to playing 7th at my mates house to be honest.

[duz_]

Before getting to disparaged I'd give the game a few good goes first!

 

I feel like artillery in general this edition got more of a boost?

[morroccomole]

Between your six earthshakers, surely you had several scatter off in the old edition? Now each has the potential do damage. I think what this edition does is tone down the spam (on all sides.) We don't need to spam hull points or artillery to be viable as a Guard unit. I'm sorry you had to buy six forgeworld earthshakers to do well in the previous edition. But in this new edition you have more options. I think that's what we all wanted, isn't it? Just screen your batteries with some dirt cheap conscripts. You'll be a formidable foe in 8th.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Basilisks aren't great against blobs, but they are exceptional vs Elite infantry. I think they'll still work quite nicely as Marine killers.

[lash144]

How would you primarily use Bullgryns?

 

Just a squad as some kind of a melee deterrent alongside.

 

Or give them a transport, most likely a chimera, and bring the heat to your opponent.

[gilt_imp]

Transport options for Bullgryns:

 

Chimera with 2 heavy flamers (turret and hull) transporting 3 – 4 Bullgryns.

 

Valkyrie Grav-Chute Inserting 3 – 4 Bullgryns. Nice option as they can disembark anywhere along the Valkyries movement path.

 

Taurox transporting 3 Bullgryns (economy version).

 

 

Personally I like the maul and shield option for these guys (melee) so will be experimenting over time the best way to transport them.

 

 

Edit: More thoughts

I think they used to have more of a counter/defensive role, but now ...

Wondering if they will benefit from an additional character, like a Commissar or Priest etc.

Or maybe a larger unit of 5 or 6 Bullgryn on foot screening other units/vehicles.

Hey wait and see what FW rules are like for that Gorgon Heavy Transporter 

[H311fi5h]

Basilisks aren't great against blobs, but they are exceptional vs Elite infantry. I think they'll still work quite nicely as Marine killers.

 

1,24 dead Marines on average. That seems a bit wasteful. Against multi-wound infantry they are pretty good, but I wouldn't bother with shooting single wound targets. Mortar Teams will do the same for a third of the point cost.

 

Which would fit perfectly to a Krieg army. Aren't the Death Korps all about WWI style trench warfare? That screams mortar teams. And now they are finally good.

In addition, we don't have the rules for Quad-Launchers and heavy mortars yet. Will it take some re-organizing of your army? Sure, in the end you'll do much better.

I'm 99% certain Death Korps are gonna be amazing in 8th edition.

[micdicdoc]

For a while I had disparaged about having three Hellhound models with no apparent use to put them to, but the new rules make me excited to try them out anew! It's great that it seems all variants of the Hellhound might be worth taking. I remember before that the Devil Dog's main cannon had issues when determining whether the blast was within melta range; great to see the new shooting has rectified this.

 

With regards to Chimera builds, what do you guys think of the Twin Heavy Bolter variant? Does this build lean more towards using the tank statically, counter to using it to ferry units about? Certainly the "poor man's Hellhound" one seems to fill the role of getting Veterans or two Special Weapon Squads in your opponent's face, fast, exceptionally well, whilst also providing a sizeable threat against their infantry. Does it look like the Multilaser turret is a real loser here?

[lash144]

 

Edit: More thoughts

I think they used to have more of a counter/defensive role, but now ...

Wondering if they will benefit from an additional character, like a Commissar or Priest etc.

Or maybe a larger unit of 5 or 6 Bullgryn on foot screening other units/vehicles.

Hey wait and see what FW rules are like for that Gorgon Heavy Transporter

 

I was thinking about an offensive unit of 3 Bullgryns with Brutemaul in a Chimera supported by a Priest and a Commissar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

With regards to Chimera builds, what do you guys think of the Twin Heavy Bolter variant? Does this build lean more towards using the tank statically, counter to using it to ferry units about? Certainly the "poor man's Hellhound" one seems to fill the role of getting Veterans or two Special Weapon Squads in your opponent's face, fast, exceptionally well, whilst also providing a sizeable threat against their infantry. Does it look like the Multilaser turret is a real loser here?

 

I think the multilaser is really lackluster tbh... 

Heavy Bolter vs Heavy Flamer depends really on the purpose and the cargo of your chimera:

 

- If you use it to deliver some suicide units to the frontline like Special Weapons Squads or Command Squads / Vets with Melters then you should really take the Heavy Flamer option.

- If you use more defensively, e.g. for LOS blocking etc. then I would definitely go with Heavy Bolter (which are also quite cheaper in comparisson)

[duz_]

Apparently this edition the load out for chimeras is heavy flamers + heavy flamers. Especially if its getting in the thick of things. Always guaranteed to hit regardless of movement or damage.

 

As for Ogyrns, I need to check the numbers more of 3 vs 4. I am think 3 bullgryns + Psyker, Priest, Platoon commander in a Valk. Fly them straight into the enemy lines and bash some heads.

[WarriorFish]

Maybe time for me to finally paint that FW flamer turret... :P