Die for the Emperor, or die trying - AM 8th Index review

[Captain_Krash]

What are the multlasers rules now?

 

Krash

[H311fi5h]

Essentially unchanged, Heavy 3 36" S6 AP0 D1, making the Heavy Bolter equal against most targets, and better vs T4.

[Feral_80]

Update after a game vs Orks yesterday:

 

- infantry squads evaporate quickly esp. in melee, but deploy them well (over 4" away one another) and you can create lanes that allow you to control incoming melee units.

 

- Bane Wolf is *scary*! Until it has lost its very last wound, its offensive potential remains exactly the same (always add a heavy flamer to its cannon), except for the reduced movement. This makes it extremely durable, especially if you boost its save with a psyker and/or cover. Deploy it well, over 4" away from your other units, and it will act as a huge and very tough deterrent vs assault armies. I might use 2 or 3 next time!

 

- Basilisk was quite impressive; Wyvern was great

 

- I was quite unimpressed by meltaguns. Between the high cost and not-so-incredible stats, I might go with plasma all the time

 

- Orks melee is *brutal*. The warboss was the least impressive of all units on the board, actually!

[WarriorFish]

My two Hellhounds, Banewolf and fully magnetised kit are very pleased to hear this Feral... Finally the time of the Hellhound begins! They called me crazy for having so many, but I just call them tinder back

[duz_]

Yes I've been thinking I'll need to paint up my Hellhound hull mounted Hflamer. Yay for no more firing archs! :)

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Thanks for the review, Feral. It's great to hear how things are functioning on the actual table.

 

Melta was king in 7th for Guard (although I saw a fair bit of plasma too), but considering that it is now more expensive than plasma, plasma may be the way to go. Don't we need the multiple damage of melta for dealing with multiwound creatures and vehicles though?

[duz_]

Not to duplicate posts but I literally just share my thoughts on Melta in the other thread

 

Yes good point, I dont see melta going away.

However it may change from an tank hunting / in your face / assault weapon. It may more become a defensive weapon for when those high wound, high toughness models crash (or deep strike) your lines.

[Feral_80]

Yes. The problem with melta is that you deepstrike at over 9", which means no melta range. On the other hand, just fine to fire 2 plasma shots.

Also, since you now disembark from a vehicle at the beginning of the movement, you won't be automatically within 6" of that juicy big enemy either.

I can see it used as a last resort weapon to try to shoot down some incredibly tough transports and assault units, essentially as a 1-shot weapon the turn before you get charged.

 

Just to make it clear: in one whole round of shooting with about 1000 pts of long-range fire, artillery, and tanks, I only managed to take down 1 Ork trukk and wounded another. Transports are terribly tough, and you just cannot stop them all. The Battlewagon simply would not die, until I got very luck with wounding (6s!) and my opponent got very unlucky with saves on turn 5. Plus, he forgot to heal his transport with his Big Mek for the whole game...

[HenricusTyranicus]

On the topic of the toughness of vehicles, you know what seems hilarious to me? Giving the FnP warlord trait to your tank commander leading the army. For when you really need to never ever die.

[micahwc]

I've been running numbers on vehicles and they are really damn tough. A sororitas rhino will take 8 bs4+ melta hits to kill on average. This is assuming out of melta range as I didn't want to figure out the math to include the melta rule.

 

8 shots at bs 4+ (.66%), wounds on a 4+ due to higher S than T (.66%), 6+ invulnerable save on a sororitas rhino (.85%) x 3.5 average damage per melta = 10.36 wounds. Rhinos without an invulnerable save will take 12.19 wounds from 8 melta on average.

 

Plasma loses out even with the extra shots unless you overcharge, due to it only doing 1 wound and being 1 lower toughness. 8 plasma shooting twice at S7 averages only 4.48 wounds to the sororitas rhino. Regular rhinos that have no invulnerable save will be the same here, as the AP on the plasma reduces the armor of the rhino to 6+. Melta gives no armor saves to rhinos.

 

Overcharged plasma is better at 11.8 wounds but 2.4 of your guys will take mortal wounds.

 

 

 

This is for a rhino. Not a predator equivalent or a land raider.

 

 

Overcharged plasma is pretty close to melta and gives you better range; but regular plasma can't compete with melta on damage, only on range.  

[micahwc]

All that previous math being accounted for, my 2000 point Imperial list has 7 vehicles in it. 3 immolators, 2 exorcists, and 2 taurox primes. Conveniently the vehicles I already own.

[Plasmablasts]

Mathhammer for melta rule:

 

Chance of causing x damage with one unsaved, wounding hit:

 

6 wounds = 11/36

5 wounds = 9/36

4 wounds = 7/36

3 wounds = 5/36

2 wounds = 3/36

1 wound = 1/36

 

So, median damage = (6*11 + 5*9 + 4*7+ 3*5 + 2*3 + 1*1)/36 = 161/36 ~ 4.5 (just under).

 

Hope that helps!

[lash144]

@Feral

 

Since you already played some games, what do you think is a good ratio of Commissars and available orders per Infantry Squad?

[Feral_80]

Depends on your style. I prefer not to field too many squads. I had only 1 commissar and 1 company commander for 4 infantry squads, and especially the former was not enough do its very small area effect radius. I'd say 2 commies and 1 cc would have been ideal. Since hwt cannot take vox, you'll need another dedicated cc for them if you field them e.g. on high scenery etc.

[micahwc]

Or a platoon commander.

 

Just watched the mini wargaming battle report of tyranids versus astra militarum. The company commander with power maul actually did really well in close combat. Not something I would take after enemies, but for defending in close combat he did pretty well.

[Lemondish]

Yes. The problem with melta is that you deepstrike at over 9", which means no melta range. On the other hand, just fine to fire 2 plasma shots.

Also, since you now disembark from a vehicle at the beginning of the movement, you won't be automatically within 6" of that juicy big enemy either.

I can see it used as a last resort weapon to try to shoot down some incredibly tough transports and assault units, essentially as a 1-shot weapon the turn before you get charged.

 

Disembark from a moving Valk - solves that problem pretty quickly :D

[Gothical]

I figure we are all missing something with Battle/Earthshaker Cannons - Frankie and Reece from Frontline Gaming who playtested the edition say they are *really* good, and I've heard a few reports from people using them on the table that they are solid as well. I am unconvinced, mathematically they're not that great, but they keep getting good reviews.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I really need to get a game in soon to try it out for myself -- I have several "vanilla" Russes.

[Feral_80]

Yes. The problem with melta is that you deepstrike at over 9", which means no melta range. On the other hand, just fine to fire 2 plasma shots.

Also, since you now disembark from a vehicle at the beginning of the movement, you won't be automatically within 6" of that juicy big enemy either.

I can see it used as a last resort weapon to try to shoot down some incredibly tough transports and assault units, essentially as a 1-shot weapon the turn before you get charged.

Disembark from a moving Valk - solves that problem pretty quickly

Hmmm, well there seem to be still some uncertainties on the way disembarking from a Valkyries works. And even if it works in the good way that we hope for, the Valkyrie still sucks as a gunship and is only good as a transport. So, essentially you are paying ca. +150 pts to turn your 3x or 4x melta squad into a one-shot killer. I am not sure that it is really worth it.

[micahwc]

Melta scions are a better value than the Melta Vets + Valkyrie. You don't get the melta rule as you will be 9.1" away, but it's a lot more cost effective. Command plasma scions and a plasma pistol tempestor prime with the order to reroll 1s could be good. 9 overcharged plasma shots that reroll 1's to hit.

[Lemondish]

 

Hmmm, well there seem to be still some uncertainties on the way disembarking from a Valkyries works. And even if it works in the good way that we hope for, the Valkyrie still sucks as a gunship and is only good as a transport. So, essentially you are paying ca. +150 pts to turn your 3x or 4x melta squad into a one-shot killer. I am not sure that it is really worth it.

 

 

I'm still really new to 40k in general, but what uncertainties exist? Seems perfectly clear to me. What am I missing?

[Feral_80]

 

 

Hmmm, well there seem to be still some uncertainties on the way disembarking from a Valkyries works. And even if it works in the good way that we hope for, the Valkyrie still sucks as a gunship and is only good as a transport. So, essentially you are paying ca. +150 pts to turn your 3x or 4x melta squad into a one-shot killer. I am not sure that it is really worth it.

 

 

I'm still really new to 40k in general, but what uncertainties exist? Seems perfectly clear to me. What am I missing?

 

 

I am (well, many seem to be) not so sure at all that the grav-chute rule really allows a unit to move after they disembark. 

[duz_]

When I read the entry I couldn't see why they can't move.

It doesnt state they make the grav drop at the end of the phase and that they "disembark".

Disembarking allows you to move and act normally for the rest of the phase/turn, given its not at the "end of phase" it also doesn't bar you from moving.

 

We shall see if this changes in the Codex release or any FAQ's that might be released in the meanwhile.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I think people are cautious about the grav chute because it kind of seems too good to be true. But as far as I can tell, the rules as written allow you to charge after grav chuting in. I can't see anything in the rules prohibiting it.

[Feral_80]

Yea, in theory I agree. But I prefer to be cautious...I'm not sure why IG is supposed to have the only transport of the game (at least to my knowledge) that can break both the normal rule for transports and that for deepstriking.