Otto von Bludd Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Update after a game vs Orks yesterday: - infantry squads evaporate quickly esp. in melee, but deploy them well (over 4" away one another) and you can create lanes that allow you to control incoming melee units. - Bane Wolf is *scary*! Until it has lost its very last wound, its offensive potential remains exactly the same (always add a heavy flamer to its cannon), except for the reduced movement. This makes it extremely durable, especially if you boost its save with a psyker and/or cover. Deploy it well, over 4" away from your other units, and it will act as a huge and very tough deterrent vs assault armies. I might use 2 or 3 next time! I've been running numbers on vehicles and they are really damn tough. A sororitas rhino will take 8 bs4+ melta hits to kill on average. This is assuming out of melta range as I didn't want to figure out the math to include the melta rule. 8 shots at bs 4+ (.66%), wounds on a 4+ due to higher S than T (.66%), 6+ invulnerable save on a sororitas rhino (.85%) x 3.5 average damage per melta = 10.36 wounds. Rhinos without an invulnerable save will take 12.19 wounds from 8 melta on average. Plasma loses out even with the extra shots unless you overcharge, due to it only doing 1 wound and being 1 lower toughness. 8 plasma shooting twice at S7 averages only 4.48 wounds to the sororitas rhino. Regular rhinos that have no invulnerable save will be the same here, as the AP on the plasma reduces the armor of the rhino to 6+. Melta gives no armor saves to rhinos. Overcharged plasma is better at 11.8 wounds but 2.4 of your guys will take mortal wounds. This is for a rhino. Not a predator equivalent or a land raider. I'll take another swing at the horse I've nearly (nearly) beaten to death and say that vehicles are definitely going to protect infantry this edition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Yea, in theory I agree. But I prefer to be cautious...I'm not sure why IG is supposed to have the only transport of the game (at least to my knowledge) that can break both the normal rule for transports and that for deepstriking. It may simply be because I'm new to the game in general, but a unit having special capabilities that others do not, despite sharing a similar type (e.g. transport) does not seem so out of place given the way these data sheets are designed. To me it seemed like a way to present Valkyries as air cav. One of the things that I think is very clear with 8th at this point is that positioning and the movement phase have a lot more importance to them than you'd first think. AM seems to be an army with a lot of options to break the rules regarding movement, particularly given the orders like 'Get back in the fight!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Considering that anyone can charge out of deep strike, I don't see why you can't charge after a grav chute deployment from a Valkyrie. Scions deep-striking is supposed to represent them grav-chuting into the battle after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Considering that anyone can charge out of deep strike, I don't see why you can't charge after a grav chute deployment from a Valkyrie. Scions deep-striking is supposed to represent them grav-chuting into the battle after all. I think the discussion is more about moving after disembarking from a Valkyrie that has also moved. From what I understand, you normally would not be able to disembark after your transport moves. The entry for Valkyries, however, has a special rule that states models may disembark at any point during its move (while taking a test for any moves over 20''). This rule does not share the same name or wording as the Aerial Drop rule for grav-chute deployment that most of the more elite AM units have (like Scions, for instance). Which basically results in two things - first, it gives you a lot of mobility for units that can't deep strike like Vets, Special Weapon Squads, Company Command Squads etc. And second, it would allow you to drop a bunch of meltas 9'' away from a dangerous target, move into 2x damage range, and (hopefully) roast something. That idea of air cav makes me want to field a squadron and play Flight of the Valkyries each time I move them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Deep strikers and the like cannot move after arriving because it happens at the end of the movement phase. Disembarking from valkyries seems to be normal disembarking that can take place while it's moving rather than before it moves. Models that disembark can move normally, so this does make Valkyrie payloads super precision bombs. Flamer special weapon squads can land, advance, and fire without penalty. Command squads with meltas can easily get within half range as outlined above. I am hoping Vendettas keep the rule, since their capacity is more appropriate for that sort of unit, while also being a more lethal vehicle in its own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatBrannigan Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 The Valk is expensive enough, I'd say you are paying for the Grav Chute rule. And better that IG have it because we can't deploy any really hideous close combt units that would make that rule too filthy. Might get some guys into melta range but that's about all it's good for for Guard. Useful but far from game breaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 The Valk is expensive enough, I'd say you are paying for the Grav Chute rule. And better that IG have it because we can't deploy any really hideous close combt units that would make that rule too filthy. Might get some guys into melta range but that's about all it's good for for Guard. Useful but far from game breaking. I disagree, it has lots of uses My personal favourite thought is Ogryn delivery system with specialist support. End of game objective grabbing Multi squad fire support drops The valk is definitely not a gun boat this edition given its penalties to firing when moving. It does seem to have this unique precision grav chute insertion. Especially when flyers now start on the table T1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero88 Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 To me the Valkyrie rule sounds too good to be true. I wouldn't bank any army list designs around it too much until it inevitably gets answered in a FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Wu Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 As long as we're talking about Valkyries, let's not forget that when in hover mode they lose the Airborne rule- which is what prevents them from charging. So you can move 20", drop off a squad to blast a target, shoot it yourself, and then charge the Valkyrie into them or another nearby threat without the ability to kill it in 1 turn of assault. You'll be safe from reprisal shooting and will have protected your squad on the ground. Then use the Fly ability on your next turn to withdraw for free and reposition. The idea of a Valkyrie fighting in close combat is undeniably strange, but I'd fluff it as it hovering at low altitude and firing indiscriminate suppressive fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatBrannigan Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Don't get me wrong, it's a VERY useful rule for Guard. My point was that we can't drop off some crazy powerful squad that is almost guaranteed a charge. We can do some damage for sure, but pay an appropriate price for it. I think it's a great rule but if someone was dumping huge squads of Wulfen with Powerful characters onto my lines turn one with no way to block them I'd be crying foul. Popping up with Scions or special weapons squads to toast something is useful for us, annoying for the enemy. But they're dead next turn. Good, fun, fluffy, costed appropriately. I really like the rule as written! Now watch it get FAQ'd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lash144 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Have you found a way to include the Chimera to your army? I really want to, because it´s the iconic transport of the Imperial Guard, but in comparison to the Taurox (Prime) it just sucks ^^ Maybe for some close quarters action, e.g: - Chimera (2 x Heavy Flamer) - 109 pts - 10 x Veterans (replace Lasguns with shotguns, maybe some flamers) - atleast 60 pts - Company Commander (Power Maul, Plasma Pistol) - 39 pts Total: Atleast 208 pts The Commander can issue the move order after disembarking and the Vets can still fire because they got assault weapons. Furthermore I think the Commander himself is not that bad in a melee engagement. Only problem I see is that half of the 200 points are pretty squishy. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkeo Nox Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Vendetta is going to be soooo expensive ! Imagine : Valkyrie base with less transport capacity 120/130 points and then three twin lascanons at 50 points each : around 300 points ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesight Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Have you found a way to include the Chimera to your army? Company Commander w/ axe and plasma pistol 40 Elite- Veteran Squad- 3x Melta, Heavy Flamer, power axe, plasma pistol-123 Chimera, 2x Heavy Flamer, storm bolter-111 Elite- Veteran Squad 3x Plasma, Heavy Flamer, power axe, plasma pistol-108 Chimera, 2x heavy flamer, storm bolter-111 Give reroll to hit orders. Or for some solo work Elite Platoon Commander w/ axe and plasma pistol Elite- Veteran Squad 3x flamer, Heavy Flamer, power axe, plasma pistol-108 Chimera, 2x heavy flamer, storm bolter-111 With reroll wound order. Drive up to what you want to kill, flame if you can, if not pop smoke. Then jump out 9 inches with your veterans, order and blow things away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lash144 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Especially the first option looks pretty nasty. Do you still give them shotguns or normal lasguns? OT: I am pretty new to 40k, so how do you give your Sgt. power axe / plasma pistols, because those are not in the sprue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Bits! Bits everywhere! Command squad sprues Scions sprues Space marine sprues Start collecting long enough you'll have more bits than you'll know what to do with! There's also online sellers and gaming groups often do bits swap days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Just put together something: 30 conscripts + a Lord Commisar with power fist and plasma pistol, + platoon commander with power fist and plasma pistol, + a ministorum priest with laspistol and chainsword. Comes to 225 points exactly and can be taken as a Vanguard Detachment for +1 CP. Everything gets +1 attack in close combat from the priest, including the Lord Commisar. Platoon Commander can issue "Get Back In the Fight!" or "First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!", or "Fix Bayonets!" as needed. Commisar keeps the morale losses down to 1 max, and the improved leadership makes it harder for them to fail morale tests. Edit: For 34 more points you can add a bare command squad with a medic to bring back casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 Some oddities and things I noticed. Will update first post: - Abhumans have no <regimemt>, thus as far as I understand the rule they cannot take orders :( - For the same reason, e.g. Commissars also cannot (fluffy). However, weirdly enough officers can, and a CC apparently can take orders from a PC...weird XD - RaW, it seems to me that 1 embarked model is enough to fire 2x laser arrays on the Chimera. Your opinion? - My opinion: No upgrades except for just 1 flamer is the way to go with Infantry squads. Possibly a vox for those you deploy in the front, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 8 points for a heavy bolter is not bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Talarian Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 Have you found a way to include the Chimera to your army? Company Commander w/ axe and plasma pistol 40 Elite- Veteran Squad- 3x Melta, Heavy Flamer, power axe, plasma pistol-123 Chimera, 2x Heavy Flamer, storm bolter-111 Elite- Veteran Squad 3x Plasma, Heavy Flamer, power axe, plasma pistol-108 Chimera, 2x heavy flamer, storm bolter-111 Give reroll to hit orders. Or for some solo work Elite Platoon Commander w/ axe and plasma pistol Elite- Veteran Squad 3x flamer, Heavy Flamer, power axe, plasma pistol-108 Chimera, 2x heavy flamer, storm bolter-111 With reroll wound order. Drive up to what you want to kill, flame if you can, if not pop smoke. Then jump out 9 inches with your veterans, order and blow things away. Wowsa... you can have three Flamers+ Hflamer in a vet squad!? That's tasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 Not bad, but not optimal either. Now that we have 10-men squads we want to maximise mobility and orders such as frfsrf. Plus, I don't care if I lose or retreat such a cheap unit. Ideally, with 1sgt, 8 lasguns and 1 flamer, against incoming enemies you fire and overwatch with d6 frag grenade (sgt), 16/32 lasgun shots (frfsrf), and d6 flamer auto-hits. Definitely worth 48 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Wu Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 However, weirdly enough officers can, and a CC apparently can take orders from a PC...weird XD This has always been possible, actually. A FAQ rationalized it by suggesting it's phrased less as an order and more as a "Sir begging your pardon but-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Begging your pardon Sir, but GET BACK IN THE FIGHT! A Sgt in motion outranks an officer standing around, an EOD tech at a run outranks everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I need three fast attack choices if I want to play pure guard. What's the best way to get three FA units in a guard brigade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Hellhounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Effectively or cheap?I think Hellhounds would be a very good option Otherwise Scout Sentinels are probably the cheapest and yet somewhat effective way of doing it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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