First game in 8th (Long post)

[shanewatts]

I'd play it as the datasheet overrules the appendix, so I won't be taking single model units.

 

It isn't the appendix, its the Matched Play points costs, the essential page to making a legal army. Plus, we could do single models last edition, why does this seem out of place?

[Moostick]

RAI, I would think the Matched Play is correct since it reflects our special conditions from 7th.

 

There are a few possible reasons for the difference in the datasheet. It's either to make the Power Level easier to tally up, or the writer copy and pasted the sentence to each equivalent model and only changed the model name, but not the number of models in a unit. The datasheet is absolutely racked with typos and things that don't make sense, so I would put my money on sloppy copy and pasting without proper QC/QA.

 

One prominent example would be Deathwatch Terminators. Why would the first five have a power level of 17, but adding 5 only increase it by Power Level 13? At first I thought it might be the sergeant, but there are very few units where the sergeant comes with a tax. Even when it does, it's a difference of 1 power level and not a whopping 4.

 

For a good example of why I believe it's simply sloppy copy and paste, refer to the Grey Knight's Paladin datasheet, specifically the section saying what addition models you can take. This happens several times with other units as well.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Moostick

[Master Avoghai]

I am not super sold on power weapons on regular vets, chainswords extra attack was nice. I certainly like a Thunder hammer or 2 though (on a black shield and sergeant for extra attack.)

But that's actually a question : is it better to have one more A or to make your A more able to inflict a W?

 

With tyranids and orks hords armies being back I guess that one more A is nice but wounding a dread on 5+ and leaving it with a 6+ save is still great... particulary when you know that you'll make a pplasma attack you next shooting phase ^^

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

 

I'd play it as the datasheet overrules the appendix, so I won't be taking single model units.

 

It isn't the appendix, its the Matched Play points costs, the essential page to making a legal army. Plus, we could do single models last edition, why does this seem out of place?

 

It's a reference section at the end, I'd call it an appendix. Last edition was a different game. The datasheets, which describe how the units work and are built, says the units are 3-5 models, and I'd say they're more definitive. One of the two are going to be wrong, so I'll defer to the primary source.

 

The argument for veteranless Kill Teams is even more spurious. 

[Moostick]

I know I'm the one who brought it up, but I really hope no one actually tries to use this as "proof" that you can bring Veteranless Kill Teams. That's just 100% clearly an oversight and a big no no just in terms of principle.

[shanewatts]

 

 

I'd play it as the datasheet overrules the appendix, so I won't be taking single model units.

 

It isn't the appendix, its the Matched Play points costs, the essential page to making a legal army. Plus, we could do single models last edition, why does this seem out of place?

 

It's a reference section at the end, I'd call it an appendix. Last edition was a different game. The datasheets, which describe how the units work and are built, says the units are 3-5 models, and I'd say they're more definitive. One of the two are going to be wrong, so I'll defer to the primary source.

 

The argument for veteranless Kill Teams is even more spurious. 

 

 

As far as the two references is concerned, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. One of them exists solely for the purpose of matched play, so that will always be my go to.

 

The veteranless kill teams is a fairly ridiculous oversight, but funny at least.

[Vel'Cona]

I know I'm the one who brought it up, but I really hope no one actually tries to use this as "proof" that you can bring Veteranless Kill Teams. That's just 100% clearly an oversight and a big no no just in terms of principle.

 

Bet you wish you hadn't brought it up now, eh?  :lol:

[Tactical Badger]

Re units consisting of one bike. To use a unit, you have to have a datasheet for that unit. So unless you have a datasheet for a unit of DW bikers consisting of only one bike, the only way to field one DW biker is to pay for a unit of three (or more if you feel like it!) but only field one model. There is a rule allowing undersize squads.  

 

As for the discrepancy between the datasheet and the matched play points information, I can only guess that one of them is a typo. I am inclined to believe that the matched play points table is the typo. While we did have the opportunity to field units of one bike in 7e, there is a clear trend of GW encouraging the use of units in the composition in which they are sold, and the only sole biker is the one sold as part of Kill Team Cassius - which can be fielded as part of a DW kill team. All other DW bikers are sold as units of three. But even if the data sheet is the typo and GW intended for units of one DW bike to be playable, until they amend the datasheet, the above point stands.

[SnakeChisler]

In terms of right and wrong if it says 1 - 5 in matched play reference you can take 1 - 5 in match play and if your playing power levels you'll have to take the full 5 if that's how your organising your game.

 

We currently have to suck it for storm shields and while one or the other may be a Typo or cut and paste both appear valid in their own way.

[Blackskull]

The Appendix you guys are referring to is actually called the "Deathwatch Point Values" page.

 

It clearly states at the top of the page "If you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a point limit you can use the following lists to determine total point cost of your army. Simply add together the total point cost of all your models, as well as all the wargear they are equipped with to determine your army's total points value."

 

It then goes on to list how many models can be in each unit and what the individual cost is.

 

So yes, we can have 1 model units.

 

They did the model counts the same on the datasheets to keep the power levels consistent across SM armies.

[Vel'Cona]

As ever, DW need a FAQ.  Seems that history DOES repeat itself, eh brothers?  :P

[temneb]

It says in the rules specifically that you can take under strength units p242. So one biker is allowed.

 

Actually it says you can take one under strength unit of each type.

Edited June 11, 2017 by temneb

[hmk17]

Supposedly GW has been listening and we will be getting Day 1 FAQ / Errata.

 

As much as I love the new edition, there is a lot of stuff that feels overlooked or rushed.

[Mobius0288]

Dudes... it ONLY matters if you're playing a matched game type (traditional points) vs a narrative game type (power level). And lets be real, you can't take a kill team without veterans.

 

Hey Shanewatts, what's your thought on taking a terminator in a kill team versus using the blackshield as your TH/SS guy? I presume morale wasn't an issue? Did your blackshield make a contribution? I guess my thought here is maximizing SIA with the veterans/bikers and melee with the vanguard/termies/sergeant.

[Vel'Cona]

As much as I love the new edition, there is a lot of stuff that feels overlooked or rushed.

 

I mean to be fair, it's a lot to cover.  I think they've done a fine job with what's here so far.  As with the AoS release, 40k 8th is very much a WIP (which implies continued development).  That can only be a good thing for us going forward.

[shanewatts]

Dudes... it ONLY matters if you're playing a matched game type (traditional points) vs a narrative game type (power level). And lets be real, you can't take a kill team without veterans.

 

Hey Shanewatts, what's your thought on taking a terminator in a kill team versus using the blackshield as your TH/SS guy? I presume morale wasn't an issue? Did your blackshield make a contribution? I guess my thought here is maximizing SIA with the veterans/bikers and melee with the vanguard/termies/sergeant.

 

I have yet to really have morale be a factor. Either the unit gets wiped or they take little damage to matter in morale. The only reason to bring a termie is if you want 2+ saves I think, since the hammer + ss costs the same regardless of the carrier (and black shield/sergeant gets an extra attack.)

[Kargrym]

Isn't it also required to have a terminator in the kill team if you want to use a teleport homer?

[Vel'Cona]

Isn't it also required to have a terminator in the kill team if you want to use a teleport homer?

 

I don't think so.  Pro secret weapon sauce?  :P

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

If a Kill Team has a Biker with a Homer, it's placed on deployment. Any unit with a Terminator can use it, including Kill Teams. They still need to be alive and present, though.

[leth]

 

Dudes... it ONLY matters if you're playing a matched game type (traditional points) vs a narrative game type (power level). And lets be real, you can't take a kill team without veterans.

 

Hey Shanewatts, what's your thought on taking a terminator in a kill team versus using the blackshield as your TH/SS guy? I presume morale wasn't an issue? Did your blackshield make a contribution? I guess my thought here is maximizing SIA with the veterans/bikers and melee with the vanguard/termies/sergeant.

 

I have yet to really have morale be a factor. Either the unit gets wiped or they take little damage to matter in morale. The only reason to bring a termie is if you want 2+ saves I think, since the hammer + ss costs the same regardless of the carrier (and black shield/sergeant gets an extra attack.)

 

 

I wouldnt even bother with storm shields at this point.  I would just keep terminators cheap and have them eat all small, single damage fire, High AP single damage fire and Allocate all multi damage to regular guys.