8th Ed Tactics thread

[Gen.Steiner]

I think Basilisks, Wyverns and Griffons are a good start for an artillery park.

[WarriorFish]

At least it's consistent, better than nothing! Got my first Guard game in for 8th yesterday and it's looking good for artillery lists. Solid units and of course putting plenty of boots on the table will go a long way in 8th. I was pleased with my Hellhounds too, and the mortar and heavy bolter HWSs were good

What type of artillery did you bring?

HWS mortars did well, fall back from a turn 1 Assault Marine charge and stripped wounds off Rhino as well as plinking some Marines. Manticore shone brightly by popping two Centurions on turn 1, it can hit really hard with a big of luck. Same for the Basilisk I reckon and let's not forget the best thing in ignoring LoS, that was really useful :tu:

[major higgins]

I think Basilisks, Wyverns and Griffons are a good start for an artillery park.

Actually I use 3 Heartshaker Platform + 3 Heavy quad lunchers for my artillery. I try to not use anything that is not krieg, but I have to subside and use 2 squad of Scions plus a Tempestor Prime, because they are too good to don't use... I immagine that they tunneling and not aerial drop to pop out close to enemy line...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

 

At least it's consistent, better than nothing! Got my first Guard game in for 8th yesterday and it's looking good for artillery lists. Solid units and of course putting plenty of boots on the table will go a long way in 8th. I was pleased with my Hellhounds too, and the mortar and heavy bolter HWSs were good

What type of artillery did you bring?

HWS mortars did well, fall back from a turn 1 Assault Marine charge and stripped wounds off Rhino as well as plinking some Marines. Manticore shone brightly by popping two Centurions on turn 1, it can hit really hard with a big of luck. Same for the Basilisk I reckon and let's not forget the best thing in ignoring LoS, that was really useful

 

 

Yeah, I looked at the stats on Manticores ... they remain quite brutal and underpriced at only 25 points more than a Basilisk. GW continues to behave as if only having 4 shots is some sort of deal. How often do games even last more than four turns? Unless it's a massive game, I've rarely seen it happen.

 

I've stated my reasons for not liking Manticores, but I might have to give in. 25 points for 2D6 shots (versus 1d6) and +1Str on its weapon, plus +1 toughness seems too good to pass up.

 

 

I think Basilisks, Wyverns and Griffons are a good start for an artillery park.

Actually I use 3 Heartshaker Platform + 3 Heavy quad lunchers for my artillery. I try to not use anything that is not krieg, but I have to subside and use 2 squad of Scions plus a Tempestor Prime, because they are too good to don't use... I immagine that they tunneling and not aerial drop to pop out close to enemy line...

 

 

Aside from being immobile, what is the difference between an earthshaker platform and Basilisk?

[Harrowmaster]

 

 

I think Basilisks, Wyverns and Griffons are a good start for an artillery park.

Actually I use 3 Heartshaker Platform + 3 Heavy quad lunchers for my artillery. I try to not use anything that is not krieg, but I have to subside and use 2 squad of Scions plus a Tempestor Prime, because they are too good to don't use... I immagine that they tunneling and not aerial drop to pop out close to enemy line...

 

 

Aside from being immobile, what is the difference between an earthshaker platform and Basilisk?

 

 

The master of ordnance can't buff a platform but that's about the height of it.

[major higgins]

We agreed that can, unless FW put a master of ordenance for krieg. Platforms and carriages are.for "siege list"

[Shamansky]

I had my first game in 8th last weekend. That was a small window in my schedule so had a little time to think of a good list. That's why i simply took all the tanks i have plus manticore and two wyverns without any infantry. 

I faced tau. around 100 power points.

LRBT and Executioners were amazing. Tank commanders with re-roll of 1s order really help plasma survive overcarged shots. But it is still a bit risky because with my luck i re-rolled 1 to 1 and one of executioners lost two plasma cannons and a half of wounds becoming kind of useless with 5+ BS. 

Removing ignore cover from wyverns made them a lot less attractive machines. It took 4 rounds and 2 wyverns to get rid of 10 pathfinders sitting in ruins with their markers. Looks like Eradicator will finally see the table.

Manticore showed better results than i expected. Good 'big dudes hunter' capabilities. With one rocket it shaved half of wounds off one of those big gunned batlle suits with overapostrophed name.

Exterminator is ok, but used to be better.

Vanqusher is a real disappointment.

[Gen.Steiner]

Yeah, the Vanquisher isn't looking too hot; hopefully the Codex will make some changes. Giving it more damage against things with the Vehicle keyword maybe, or just S9?

[Otto von Bludd]

Let us talk about about some of the cheaper Baneblade variants if we may, like the Banehammer and Doomhammer.  NEVER in 7th did these see use but they are looking pretty good now with the changes to transports and so on.  I tried a Banehammer and was really impressed with the Tremor Cannon's ability to limit movement, it kept a Knight crippled most game while putting out good damage.  The 25 man transport capacity comes in handy for reducing your drops (I had a company commander, astropath, techpriest and 2 squads of men loaded in mine) and being able to unload a small garrison to defend your tank is really handy.  I think I am going to load it up with combat engineers, Yarick and maybe a command squad next time for a REALLY nasty surprise.  However I'm thinking the Doomhammer might complement this garrison better because it can really hurt heavy vehicles while the engineers mop up infantry.  Any thoughts on these guys?  They are also about the price of 2 Leman Russes, which makes them very attractive. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Otto von Bludd

[duz_]

In my small experience I've found my tactics for 7th haven't changed that much to 8th. You still need to layer your bubble wrap, be aware of early assualts and deep striking.

The biggest difference for me is that I've found the effectiveness of these tactics and our units have significantly increased!
On of my favourite changes (one of which I was slightly skeptical of initially) is putting vehicles on the same footing as everything else in the game! Yes -1 to heavy weapons sucks, but not more than having to snap for everything for an entire turn or having the vehicle blow up T1 with no save while MC's roam around the board with impunity. 

 

I just wish I had more time to play! I'm also excited to get my Baneblade assembled and painted! No longer is it the case that an Imperial Knight is hands down better than our own super heavies!

[dakkamasta]

Yea it's definitely a good time for the Guard. I love the blast changes as it makes basilisks and manticores really good at taking down the big boys. I know they're worse at killing infantry but thats what lasguns and flamers are for.

 

Speaking of which, I really like running multiple double h.flamer chimeras with infantry squads with a flamer in each. 1 commisar and 1 company commander for every 2 squads and they make a great base of mobile infantry with a good amount of firepower. I feel like even numbers are the sweet spot here to maximise order and commissar efficiency.

 

I'm not a fan of veterans anymore due to their changes and also since scions do what they do but better. Luckily mine are converted and look the part to count as scions.

[Lemondish]

Yea it's definitely a good time for the Guard. I love the blast changes as it makes basilisks and manticores really good at taking down the big boys. I know they're worse at killing infantry but thats what lasguns and flamers are for.

 

Speaking of which, I really like running multiple double h.flamer chimeras with infantry squads with a flamer in each. 1 commisar and 1 company commander for every 2 squads and they make a great base of mobile infantry with a good amount of firepower. I feel like even numbers are the sweet spot here to maximise order and commissar efficiency.

 

I'm not a fan of veterans anymore due to their changes and also since scions do what they do but better. Luckily mine are converted and look the part to count as scions.

 

There's one thing I wish artillery (and by extension, snipers) could still do - pinning. Unless I completely missed that in the rules, I don't think this is done again. Would actually make Basilisks live up to their name if they could freeze infantry in place.  

[Emicus]

Freezing infantry in place I believe is represented via Battleshock?

[Lemondish]

Freezing infantry in place I believe is represented via Battleshock?

 

Perhaps for individual models, but I don't think it approximates forcing entire units to hunker down and not move, does it? Perhaps too powerful in this edition, but I like the idea of a Basilisk petrifying units even if the damage isn't ideal on big groups any longer. 

[zero88]

Let us talk about about some of the cheaper Baneblade variants if we may, like the Banehammer and Doomhammer. NEVER in 7th did these see use but they are looking pretty good now with the changes to transports and so on. I tried a Banehammer and was really impressed with the Tremor Cannon's ability to limit movement, it kept a Knight crippled most game while putting out good damage. The 25 man transport capacity comes in handy for reducing your drops (I had a company commander, astropath, techpriest and 2 squads of men loaded in mine) and being able to unload a small garrison to defend your tank is really handy. I think I am going to load it up with combat engineers, Yarick and maybe a command squad next time for a REALLY nasty surprise. However I'm thinking the Doomhammer might complement this garrison better because it can really hurt heavy vehicles while the engineers mop up infantry. Any thoughts on these guys? They are also about the price of 2 Leman Russes, which makes them very attractive.

I was advocating for the Doomhammer in the Super Heavy thread.. I don't own one but it's my favorite on paper. Glad to hear it actually does work well. What did you put on the firing deck? What did you target to limit their movement? I could see hitting flanking units as being really useful. Also hitting a slow but nasty backfield threat would be awesome, like a squad of deathwing knights. Smack em with the tremor Cannon and move your army away from them, making them a significant point sink of your opponents which could then be pretty effectively ignored :D

 

A little change, but what do people think about Creed? I can see in vanguard detachments (mech vets) his extra CPs could really help. If you figure his wargear is worth about 10 points (pistols, sword and armor), and the extra order is worth maybe another 10, it means you are essentially paying 20pts for those 2 CPs. Idk, it seems like a bargain to me.

Edited July 10, 2017 by zero88

[Withershadow]

Creed is indeed a bargain, and I would even bring Kell along.  Then add Nork Dedogg, and you have two bodyguard characters who can take wounds for Creed, thus keeping 3-4 orders in play for a significant amount of time.

 

By the way, how do people feel about multi-IG detachments?  It's definitely effective, but feels a bit dirty much akin to the Superfriends of previous editions.  Elysian veterans, Krieg infantry, Tempestus stormtroopers, Cadian tank commanders.

[leth]

Death guard did work this weekend.  That 3+ to hit and not taking morale from shooting was legit. 

[Otto von Bludd]

Death guard did work this weekend.  That 3+ to hit and not taking morale from shooting was legit. 

 

 Would be interested to hear more about how it, Death Korps are looking really good to me.  I'm formulating a list for them involving 30 Combat Engineers riding in either a Stormlord or 3 dual HF Chimeras supported by Yarrick (for re-rolling 1s to hit), a Marshal (to re-roll 1s to wound via orders), a Quartermaster (for the 6+ FNP), a Priest (for +1 attack) and a Death Korp Regimental banner (for another +1 attack). 

 

This would be my assault wave, and since I haven't calculated the point cost yet I haven't determined what will sit backfield but lets look at what it can do.

 

30 Engineers all unloading carcass shot before charging.  We have 60 shots, hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s (and thus re-rolling "gets hot" results), wounding on 2s, re-rolling 1s (from orders), which then charge in for 93 attacks in close combat, hitting on 3s (not even factoring in all the special characters, just the engineers), which are immune to battle shock thanks to Yarrick, and have a 4+ save and a 6+FNP.  Sarges will have melta bombs and the Command Squad which houses the Regimental Banner will have meltas in in.

 

Sounds nasty on paper, but I haven't looked at the point cost yet. 

[Withershadow]

Interested to hear how the Chimeras will perform with two flamers. I'd also consider a storm bolter. For 2 points, a rapid fire 2 weapon is very solid when you're getting into close range anyway.

 

As for combat engineers, taking them without the mole launcher feels akin to Heresy! It's so good! Technically RAW the engineers who pick up a mole launcher don't lose their shotguns, but since the models don't have them I've been playing without.

 

Anyway, you would need 4 such Chimeras. Even if you bend the rules to take a single quartermaster without his dumbass crew (that warps rules in ridiculous ways), you're still needing to fit Yarrick, Priest, Marshall and 4 command models. One of the Engineer squads would need to drop to 8.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Withershadow

[The Catachan Devil]

I think the biggest change to 8th edition is the removal of arcs of fire. This coupled with the newly viable tactic of conscript blobs makes it very cheesy - I'll explain why.

 

Conscripts are paper thin, even forgetting their dire leadership, they have equivalent BS and Sv of orks but they have weakened Strength in CC and shooting. Their advantage lies  in numbers, it is very easy to have 200 conscripts in an army. 200 conscripts using FRFSRF plus having a nearby character that grants rerolling 1s results in 800 S3 shots at 12"; this makes 311 hits; This will kill 103.7 GEQs, 34.6 MEQs, 8.65 TEQs or put 17.3 wounds onto a T8 3+ vehicle!. 
In CC they do pretty well if coupled with Strakken and a priest they will have 600 attacks. Killing 77.8 GEQ, 17.3 MEQ, or 4.3 TEQ or 8.65 wounds onto a T8 3+ vehicle. 

So you have a cool unit that can do cool stuff, how do you deliver it so that it takes as little damage as possible? As I said conscripts die at a slight breeze. 

 

Thanks to removal of fire arcs and most Guard players will be taking tanks anyway, the steel curtain tactic is a very viable option. The Steel Curtain tactic is where you deploy vehicles sideways across and in front of your advancing conscripts, denying LOS from enemy units, when you get close enough remove the curtain, push the conscript line forward, shoot with FRSRF and preferably charge - denying the enemy a chance to shoot or charge you. 

The removal of fire arcs means you can place your vehicles sideways and still shoot whatever you like (within range and LOS of the model obv)! 

 

When you consider the Baneblade is 9" long, I can hide a lot of conscripts behind that. However 400-500 points to protect 150 points of conscripts may not be the best investment, especially when the BB takes a -1 penalty to BS when moving.  It is therefore important what should constitute the Steel Curtain.

Chimera chassis'd tanks, tauroxs and leman russes are ~5" long. They add on about an extra inch if there is a dozer blade. 

If you're paying per inch you're looking at:

Taurox -17.0 pts/inch

Chimera - 18.6 pts/inch
Hellhound variants - 20.2 - 25.2 pts/inch
Taurox prime variants - 22.4 - 28.8 pts/inch
Leman russ variants - 32.4 - 34.4 pts/inch
Baneblade variants- 44.9 - 51.4 points/inch (more if you buy an extra pair of sponsons)
 

Now whilst cost/inch is important durability is also a concern. If the tank dies under a slight breeze it probably shouldn't be considered.

S7 was chosen as it better shows the difference between T6,7 & 8. Furthermore S7 spam is a real danger, especially from tau. Ap modifiers were not included (AP=0) as this is simply a means of comparison. As all vehicles have the same Saves (3+) whether the AP is 0 or -4 the number of hits a unit can take will still be relative and proportional. 

 

Durability: Number of S4 and S7 hits to kill.

Taurox - 90 S4 hits /  45 S7 hits

Chimera - 90 S4 hits / 60 S7 hits
Hellhound variants - 99 S4 hits / 66 S7 hits
Taurox prime variants - 90 S4 hits /  45 S7 hits
Leman russ variants - 216 S4 hits / 108 S7 hits
Baneblade variants-  468 S4 hits / 234 S7 hits

Personally I feel the Chimera, Hellhound and Leman russ are the best options here. They are more durable than the Tauroxs, cheaper than the baneblade and also are the only ones that are immune to BS penalties to moving and firing either through special rules or access to flamer weapons. 


The argument for the Leman Russ predominantly relies on it being the most durable out of the three by far. Furthermore the Leman Russ demolisher is ideal for this as you should be advancing this unit forward anyway to make use of it's 24" S10 weapon. 

Hellhounds could be used as they are more durable than the chimera, furthermore it should be advancing forward anyway to make use of its 16" S6 flamer. 

Chimera could be used instead if you are using them to transport units to deploy to act as a screen for any would-be assaulting units. I feel chimeras with troops inside should be used as a supporting unit to a Steel Curtain to prevent units assaulting the Curtain that your infantry blob wouldn't be able to reach. 


TL;DR Hellhounds or Leman russ demolishers with or without Chimeras transporting troops makes a effective and points efficient steel curtain. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by The Catachan Devil

[Mitchverr]

So guard Fish of Fury? I like it, I like it alot :D

[Gen.Steiner]

I like it, but thematically I think deploying in column behind advancing armour would be more appropriate, because having your tanks drive forwards sideways smacks far too much of rules-lawyering evils to me.

Or you could load up on Stormlords and Gorgons...

[The Catachan Devil]

I like it, but thematically I think deploying in column behind advancing armour would be more appropriate, because having your tanks drive forwards sideways smacks far too much of rules-lawyering evils to me.

 

Or you could load up on Stormlords and Gorgons...

 

Haha, I did say it was cheesy. However I believe vehicles are allowed to Pivot-move-pivot, no?

[Withershadow]

Good luck moving 200 models within 12" of a target. Mathhammer is fine and all, but these extreme examples are mental masturbation.

[Gen.Steiner]

As I understand it, if one figure is within range all those weapons within that unit are considered within range. Is this not the case?