Primaris Blood Angels' Geneseed - Dark Imperium Spoilers

[Paikis]

I'm readin through the Dark Imperium novel currently and there is a scene where Roboutte is discussing the geneseed with Cawl.

 

Here's the generic bit

I'll give you the short version,

 

Guilliman asks Cawl about the Primaris and gets a response basically saying the following:

- All astartes Chapters once again have access to the full suite of additional organs, in addition to three new organs.

- Ultramarines Primaris/succeessors have the lowest error rate in creation.

- 94% acceptance rate among the chapters.

- Experimental primaris of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 20th are showing no signs of problems including Chaos corruption.

- Guilliman forbids those lines from being produced and puts a halt to the research. He does not trust Cawl to actually stop

 

And here's the bit about the Blood Angels' geneseed.

‘What of those gene-lines with more deeply ingrained flaws?’ asked Guilliman. ‘The Blood Angels and the Space Wolves?’

Cawl’s research, and his own reading, had uncovered dangerous faults that the sons of both gene-lines in question had done their best to hide.

‘The corrected flaws in the new gene-stocks show no signs of regression to previous unstable states, whether in successor Chapters composed entirely of the new Primaris Space Marine type, or in already established Chapters. Elimination entirely of the more idiosyncratic traits of some gene-lines is, however, not to be recommended. They form part of the Emperor’s original vision, and are, in any case, crucial to their proper function. The improved gene-seed of Ninth and Sixth Legion stock is operating within acceptable parameters.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Jolemai

[Crimson Devil]

That's what they always think right before the Rage/Thirst takes over.

[House Taranis]

'Acceptable parameters' well. The black rage's existence was accepted by the BA, so is it acceptable by our standards or Cawl's?

[Lephisto]

Wow, hold up. Heretic Legions gene seed showing no signs of problems including chaos corruption? Awesome. 

[E_50_Panzer]

Wow, hold up. Heretic Legions gene seed showing no signs of problems including chaos corruption? Awesome. 

 

Now the 3rd and 9th can have fashion shows again!

[Panzer]

Well I'm sure the traitor legions gene seed didn't show any corruption originally either but the individual Marines still got corrupted as we all know. :D

[vahouth]

They say that they corrected the flaw both for BAs and SW.

From what I'm reading I don't see Primaris BAs having black rage

[Charlo]

I do like this fluff.

 

I wonder if we'll see some chapters that Cawl has created from Traitor stock. Would be nice. Maybe some could even then turn traitor...

[Panzer]

They say that they corrected the flaw both for BAs and SW.

From what I'm reading I don't see Primaris BAs having black rage

Yeah it's probably to prevent Deathcompany Primaris and Wulfen Primaris with the added note to keep the unique traits to allow them to have something like BA wide furious charge (a 8th edition equivalent of course) without excluding Primaris from it once we get a real Codex.

[Silverson]

Blood angels primaries marines not suffering from the flaw would have a crazy impact on blood angels as a whole and completely change the direction of blood angels as a entity.

 

Give all blood angels the primaries upgrade and "bam" no more loosing our minds to the black rage and no more death company.

 

Could this reverse the effects, if a blood angel suffers the black rage and then undergoes the primaries upgrade does he then revert to his original mental state?

 

How would the primaries upgrade effect mephiaton?

 

The obvious negative to all this would be in all the effort that corbulo and other sanguinary priests have made in the last 10,000 years and even sanguinis him self in regards to the red thirst, it has now been accomplished but someone else at the demands of roboute guilliman.

 

I think it will be very difficult to not have the primaries upgrade suffer from the same afflictions as the blood angels in general.

[Panzer]

How would the primaries upgrade effect mephiaton?

Mephiston would most likely decline the upgrade since he thinks of the flaws as gift from the angel himself. Something that needs to get mastered and not get rid of.

[Orpheus Black Blood]

I was hoping for some death company primaris, my bad.

[Karhedron]

Wow, hold up. Heretic Legions gene seed showing no signs of problems including chaos corruption? Awesome. 

 

Even more interesting that they have lines for the 2nd and 11th Legions. Clearly not completely Purged and Forgotten after all! 

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Karhedronuk

[Arkangilos]

They didn't say the flaws were gone. They said they left design flaws (like the Red Thirst, which is the main flaw). The only questionable one is the Black Rage, which may not have a cure sense it is not a genetic flaw, but a psychic back lash.

 

So our main flaw (the thirst) is definitely still there. Our secondary flaw (the Black Rage), still might be there.

[Spagunk]

I got the impression that the ease in which either affects BA (red thirst/black rage) is likely due to geneseed degradation (in the eyes of techpriests). It may turn out that the degrading of the geneseed is merely the byproduct of the flaws, not the cause.

[Frater Antodeniel]

To clear everything :

 

The Flaw is two sided :

 

=> The Red Thirst : Gene-seed error that lead the Omophagea to develop a perpetual thirst for blood. More than this, we can also add that the Red Thirst also impact the whole chemical balance of the Blood Angels Astartes, this leading to hot blooded tempers.

 

=> The Black Rage : Psychic flaw that may have two sources (that can add themselves, or triggers one another), which are the psychic back lash of Sanguinius Death, and the Post-Traumatic Stress of Warfare. (The second may trigger the first). I theorize that the states of Black Rage is the result of a series of Post-Traumatic Stress events that the Astartes mind cannot heal anymore, which only escape is to trigger the memory of Sanguinius Death which lies in all Blood Angels gene-seed, at this moment, the Astartes loose itself to the Black Rage.

 

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To be more clear, here is the series of events leading Blood Angels (& Successors) Astartes to the Red Thirst / Black Rage States :

 

1st Step => The quality of the Gene-Seed implanted. (The more the chapter give itself to the Thirst, the more the Gene-Seed devolve through time. The Flesh Tearers are perfect exemples of the process. For millenia they gaves themselves to the Thirst, the Gene-Seeds adaptating themselves to this conditions of life. It is pure evolution.)

 

2nd Step => After the Implantation, the new Astartes first trial is to master his Thirst. Obviously, the purer the Gene-Seed are, the easier it is to master it, though it is not a rule in itself.

 

3rd Step => The life of constant warfare of an Astartes lead them to be tested. The more they give to the anger/thirst, the kicker they descend in the Red Thirst flaw (a kind of Vampiric Psychopathy due to constant Warfare). But they must also find a way to evacuate the effects of Post-Traumatic Stress (Art is a good way, explaining why Blood Angels learn to master it), should they fail to it, they will fall to the Black Rage.

 

4th Step => The more an Astartes fall to the Thirst, the less calm he is, and the more he await for battles. His temper grow hot as the need for blood become near constant. This leading him to an even more Psychopatic state of mind, for which the need for Battle and Fighting become constant. In the end, either his Bloodthirst transform him into a mindless vampire beast, or the series of Post Traumatic Stress Shocks will lead him to fall into the Black Rage.

 

5th Step => Those who resist the Red Thirst call, tend to survive longuer, and learn to master this flaw. At this point, they have also manage to evacuate the effects of Post-Traumatic test for centuries. Yet, not all the effects can be fully evacuated, so in the end, none are really free, and even the slightest of memory of war can echo in the Astartes mind and trigger the Black Rage. Finally, the Black Rage, being psychic by nature, it can also be triggered by unnatural means or particular events.

 

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In the end, the more a Blood Angels fight, the more he is tempted by the Thirst, and the more he is shocked by the stress of constant warfare. The more the Thirst grow, the more he need War, the more he will face Post Traumatic events, and so increase the risk to fall to the Black Rage. No need to say that generations after generations, the Gene-seed imprint the informations, changing to reflect the needs of a constant life of war.

[TheRealMcCagh]

According to the second spoiler

 

he didn't cure the Red Thirst. He said it is a part of the Emperor's original vision and crucial to proper function

[Evz]

Wait so... does this mean a Primaris Chapter could be made of brothers holding a World Eaters gene seed and not know it?

 

Hmmmm...

[Spagunk]

Autodenial, sound very logical but doesn't seem to match anything I've ever read so far. I mean it sound exceptionally logical​ but I just don't know if this is what gw intended the situation to work. Also, the new fluff clearly states that part of the specific trait for ba was not cleared as it was intentional. Red thirst was remarked in Horus heresy as being the specific trait the sangy was concerned about. Edited June 7, 2017 by Spagunk

[TheRealMcCagh]

As much sense as that would make, I haven't seen anything in the lore to back that up. The Red Thirst and Black Rage are two distinct conditions. The Red Thirst takes hold during a fight, and on top of making the Astartes more reckless, it also gives them a literal craving for blood. The Black Rage strikes on the eve of battle (that's how DC is formed), or while grievously wounded in lulls between fights. I've never seen an indication that the Red Thirst leads to the Black Rage. Furthermore, Blood Angels who intentionally give in to the Red Thrist have a better control over it, as evidenced by Aphael's 2nd Company 'The Blooded.'

[Frater Antodeniel]

As much sense as that would make, I haven't seen anything in the lore to back that up. The Red Thirst and Black Rage are two distinct conditions. The Red Thirst takes hold during a fight, and on top of making the Astartes more reckless, it also gives them a literal craving for blood. The Black Rage strikes on the eve of battle (that's how DC is formed), or while grievously wounded in lulls between fights. I've never seen an indication that the Red Thirst leads to the Black Rage. Furthermore, Blood Angels who intentionally give in to the Red Thrist have a better control over it, as evidenced by Aphael's 2nd Company 'The Blooded.'

 

Less than a few minutes, i was reading Dante, and just in this little part, i already spotted out battle side effects of the Red Thirst. (When Dante, upon the Battle Barge goes to speak with his 1st Captain Karlaen, he recognise the Thirst effects as Karlaen mood is different "...the Red Thrist nipped at his humours, making him tense...", furthermore, he checks Karlaen even more in search of Black Rage signs).

 

And this kind of Fluff, isn't only found in Dante (as far as i read it). I found some part in Mephiston novel, and, obviously, a great part in the Flesh Tearers novels and short stories. But there is also lot of texts in codexes and supplements to add to my theory.

 

As for the Red Thirst leading to the Black Rage, it is a logical theory based upon Post Traumatic Shock real life effects. (Plus, Chaplain mass of doom, would, following the theory, act as an inductate hypnosis, where those whose souls is already trapped by the Rage, just receive, gently, the last push up they need. It is very common in Religious ceremony, where believers enters into a state of trance following a meditating preparation of weeks/months/years and who only need few words to trigger the state of spirit once the ceremony beggins. (I recommend everyone to study, even a little on the subject, for it reveal the full power of human mind upon flesh...)

 

Speaking of Red Thirst mastery, the Flesh Tearers, after millenias giving themselves into the Thirst wildly, should be able to master it very easily....but they don't. They are among those that suffer the most of it, because they give in too much easily.

 

As for those with Blood letting traditions (Blood Drinkers, Angels Vermillion), as the Fluff state, this can be first steps to heaven or hell.

 

Finally^^, i remember, reading somewhere about Heresy era fluff (so not 100% accurate), that the Emperor created the Red Thirst to avoid the Blood Angels (and Sanguinius) to be perfect.

 

In the end^^, as for all fictional works, the Warhammer 40k fluff, is open to everyone point of view, and one can differs with the other. =)

Edited June 7, 2017 by Frater Antodeniel

[Helias_Tancred]

Well I'm sure the traitor legions gene seed didn't show any corruption originally either but the individual Marines still got corrupted as we all know.

 

Well said. As someone that has read at least half of all the Horus Heresy novels out there, the traitor primarchs and their legions did have flaws that helped lube the path to treason and chaos! You can see it when you read so much HH material. Technically those characteristics would still be there in old saved gene seed stock.

 

I don't fault Guilliman's order.

[Lephisto]

 

Wow, hold up. Heretic Legions gene seed showing no signs of problems including chaos corruption? Awesome. 

 

Even more interesting that they have lines for the 2nd and 11th Legions. Clearly not completely Purged and Forgotten after all! 

 

 

I know GW will never ever reveal, but would be so awesome to know the identity of these lost legions.

[Panzer]

 

Well I'm sure the traitor legions gene seed didn't show any corruption originally either but the individual Marines still got corrupted as we all know.

 

Well said. As someone that has read at least half of all the Horus Heresy novels out there, the traitor primarchs and their legions did have flaws that helped lube the path to treason and chaos! You can see it when you read so much HH material. Technically those characteristics would still be there in old saved gene seed stock.

 

I don't fault Guilliman's order.

 

True. But then again as Cawl himself said, even Ultramarines turned traitor and they have the most stable gene seed of all. Corruption can happen anywhere and with anybody (except for Grey Knights d'uh).

Likewise I'm pretty sure that the Blood Angels flaw isn't exactly making them more resilient against the influences of chaos either. It's just pure plot armor that prevents them turning traitor. GW at some point decided they want to keep BA on the loyalist side so it's like that. :D

[durdle-durdle]

What if all the loyalist gene seed primaris marines turn traitor and guilliman ends up having to allow Cael to make traitor gene seed primaris marines to protect the imperium. Then he can sell models from regular marines to chaos and some the other way around.

 

And at the end of the day we all grew a little.

Edited June 8, 2017 by durdle-durdle