Death Company, 8th Edition, and Power Mauls

[Xenith]

So the charge bonus attack has gone, but the bonus for chargers attacking first is a big bonus over Red Thirst.

 

We can still easily get +1 S from priests, and +1A or rerolls from Sanguinor or captains. 

 

I'll be a while before we figure everything out. 

[appiah4]

The Priest isn't free, the Sanguinor isn't auto include in all lists and ultimately buffing your assault to 7th ed effectiveness is absolutely situational and will become less reliable as the game progresses.  I wouldn't rely on Assault Squads to do much in 8th ed.  They arepretty :cussty IMO.

[Xenith]

The Priest isn't free, the Sanguinor isn't auto include in all lists and ultimately buffing your assault to 7th ed effectiveness is absolutely situational and will become less reliable as the game progresses.  I wouldn't rely on Assault Squads to do much in 8th ed.  They arepretty :cussty IMO.

 

So same as ever then?

 

This thread is about power weapons and DC though, we can figure out what to do with assault squads in the 8th ed tactica thread :)

[appiah4]

Yeah basically it's just the same as before LOL.  And sorry for derailing this..

[SM1981]

No problem with derailing thread. I think most BA players would accept that the DC are the AM unit that the chapter deserves, and AM are... err... well... perhaps useful as suicide squads?

 

And on the topic of derailing threads, does anyone know if there is an email address that gets you through to the rules team for GW / 40K? I have a couple of questions to ask that I'd like to see address in their upcoming FAQ.

Edited June 13, 2017 by SM1981

[Andrés Pacheco]

A unit of 10 AM with 2 x flamers/combi-flamer and bare bones jump captain costs about 280 points and doesn't seem terrible?

 

If you can maneuver well enough to get the flamers in range and then charge, you should be able to eat a backfield unit, or put a big enough dent in a troops unit to let battle shock do some more damage.

 

These feel like good targets for a regular assault squad to tackle, let DC with a priest and swords/fists take on the scary stuff. AP -3 ftw.

[RedemptionNL]

AM can't take combi-weapons anymore though (AM Sergeant doesn't have access to the Sergeant Equipment list, just the Melee and Pistol ones).

[Spagunk]

It's the same number of attacks at lower strength and at higher cost actually.

 

Pretty sure that is what a "wash" means in my statement :P.

[Xenith]

And on the topic of derailing threads, does anyone know if there is an email address that gets you through to the rules team for GW / 40K? I have a couple of questions to ask that I'd like to see address in their upcoming FAQ.

 

There used to be a faq@gwplc.com or similar address, but I think everything has moved to the facebook page, and they pass the questions on to the rules team.

[tychobi]

Power Axes.  I believe that strength 5 is pure gold this edition.  Why?  Wounds anything on 5s.  The biggest baddest tyranid monsters, the heavy walkers and tanks all seem to max toughness at 8.  So why pay points for more strength that is largely wasted?  Off topic I predict the Heavy Bolter as one of the best weapons of 8th.  S5 for the win!

[Thoridon]

I've started running some numbers on our melee options to see if I want to change anything around. Here's what I got for DC on the charge, without external buffs:
 
http://i.imgur.com/0Yx5Voi.jpg
 
vs Hordes
The basic chainsword is great against horde targets (T3 5+ types) and is the most points efficient there with the +1 attack shining. If you want an anti-horde melee unit then bare DC will be good, as they always have been. The 3 basic power weapons are still all fairly similar to the chainsword at this range with the maul just ahead due to S6 - a very slight increase in damage, but slightly less points efficient along with it. The fist and hammer are obviously pointless for pure anti-horde.

 

For pure anti horde I'd just keep them with basic equipment, add extra bodies instead of gear and make use of that extra chainsword attack. I'm not sure if I'd run pure antui-horde DC though, given their strengths elsewhere and how much the chainsword drops off at MEQ+.

 

vs MEQ

This is the area where the power weapons are ahead, but it's really the sword and axe - the maul strength offers no advantage here and suffers due to lower AP. The fist and hammer do start moving ahead on damage output but lag behind for points efficiency.

 

Given how low the cost of basic power weapons are now I'd see no harm in running plenty of Swords and/or Axes for an anti-MEQ unit. The AP is an advantage over the chainsword and they're more efficient. I'd also look at 1 Hammer per 5 models for when multi-wound characters need fighting too.

 

vs Multi-Wound

There's no competition here: As soon as you're facing multi-wound targets the Fist and Hammer pull miles ahead. Although the Fist can do the damage of a Hammer it can also roll a 1 just as often, so the Hammer at the fixed 3 damage at the same points is brilliant for consistency. You lose the bolt pistol but if you're focused on taking down tough targets that's a worthwhile trade.

 

You could mix axes/swords/mauls in but for efficiency I'm thinking an "anti-MC" unit will be best served taking a few Hammers for maximum damage with basic bodies for protection - maybe a 50:50 split. Having a couple of power weapons instead of chainswords could just add the extra wound or so you need and at the low cost it's not too bad when you lose them but then 2 axes would be half a hammer, so I'd probably just add an extra hammer instead to stay focused (1 hammer shoukld out-perform 4 axes against the toughest targets).

 

All-Round

For a unit looking to be flexible and take on whatever is needed I'd maybe use a mix of all 3 types. A few chainswords for efficiency vs hordes and taking the first wounds, a couple of swords/axes for running into MEQ types and then a couple of Hammers in case anything has multiple wounds. Maybe even skip the chainswords and run extra swords/axes/mauls to be effective against a wider range, given the cost.

 

With the 3 main power weapons they jump around a lot depending on the exact target. There's no huge difference, some just have the edge against different profiles. The Axe probably has that edge against more target profiles, but it's minor compared to the gap up to Hammers.

 

The main 'loser' for me is the Fist, I think I'd always rather have the Hammer for the constant 3 damage. It does mean giving up a pistol but against targets where you need the D to kick in a bolt pistol isn't going to add much and running Fist + Inferno Pistol would be a very expensive 1W model.

 

Edited

Edited June 14, 2017 by Thoridon

[Morticon]

 Off topic I predict the Heavy Bolter as one of the best weapons of 8th.  S5 for the win!

Points efficiency wise, you're right.  Straight damage output, it appears grav is still on top.  But, i'm inclined to agree with you.  

 

No problem with derailing thread. I think most BA players would accept that the DC are the AM unit that the chapter deserves.....

Did you miss the conversation in the points/list thread? :P Wont hash it out here again, but worth checking.  

They're the best we have available.  That's for sure. 

Whether that says anything is another story. 

 

 

If i'm rocking Corbs, i think Swords seems like the better option.  Though, the thought of wounding most vehicles and dreads on 4s with the maul is good too. 

Anyone want to try the math on S5, with -3, vs S7, -1 on T7 ?

 

Would be good to see! Thanks ^_^ 

[Xenith]

 

 Off topic I predict the Heavy Bolter as one of the best weapons of 8th.  S5 for the win!

Points efficiency wise, you're right.  Straight damage output, it appears grav is still on top.  But, i'm inclined to agree with you.  

 

No problem with derailing thread. I think most BA players would accept that the DC are the AM unit that the chapter deserves.....

Did you miss the conversation in the points/list thread? Wont hash it out here again, but worth checking.  

They're the best we have available.  That's for sure. 

Whether that says anything is another story. 

 

 

If i'm rocking Corbs, i think Swords seems like the better option.  Though, the thought of wounding most vehicles and dreads on 4s with the maul is good too. 

Anyone want to try the math on S5, with -3, vs S7, -1 on T7 ?

 

Would be good to see! Thanks

 

 

Gut feeling is that sword is better.

 

Assuming 4+ is a standard roll.

 

s7 Mail gives you +0 to the dice to wound t7, but only -1 to the opponent's save dice.

 

Sword gives you -1 to the dice to wound, but -3 to the opponent's save dice for a modifier, for a modifier swing of 2 in your favour.

[Thoridon]

 

If i'm rocking Corbs, i think Swords seems like the better option.  Though, the thought of wounding most vehicles and dreads on 4s with the maul is good too. 

Anyone want to try the math on S5, with -3, vs S7, -1 on T7 ?

 

Would be good to see! Thanks

 

 

Here you go:

 

http://i.imgur.com/FgpGzZA.jpg

[Xenith]

Called it ;)

 

Back of the envelope maths is that a WS 3+ maul has a 0.25 chance of a single attack wounding, and a sword has a 0.27 chance of a single attack wounding

[Morticon]

Thanks bud. 

 

Thats impressive.  Even with the 4+ to wound, the armour mod pushes it over.  Think the only time it will tip is with corbs vs. T6.  

Thanks for the info!!

[Thoridon]

Just thinking... I can't seem to see anything saying a unit can't receive multiple psychic buffs. 2 Librarians following a bunch of Hammer-DC around granting the 4++ invul save and +1 attack would make them extremely tough all round. A little expensive perhaps, roughly 3 Hammer DC per JP Librarian. Would scale with group size though...

[Xenith]

For the cost of the buff librarian, you could just buy more hammers though, right?

 

I think having a dedicated buffer might not work this edition, but having one give the 4++ to the unit about to be shot, or +12A to the one that is charging might work better.

[Arkhanist]

Just thinking... I can't seem to see anything saying a unit can't receive multiple psychic buffs. 2 Librarians following a bunch of Hammer-DC around granting the 4++ invul save and +1 attack would make them extremely tough all round. A little expensive perhaps, roughly 3 Hammer DC per JP Librarian. Would scale with group size though...

 

Besides whether it's worthwhile points wise, in matched play you can only attempt each power once per turn (bar smite) regardless of number of psykers who know it - rules, pg 215.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Thoridon]

Aye, a Hammer on the charge is 3 attacks so with the Lib costing almost 3 Hammer DC that's > 9 attacks it'd have to be grant to exceed the damage output of the extra bodies instead (and that's not taking the extra bodies into account defensively via wounds). Would need 9 Hammers in the unit being buffed to match that, which would be a very large group.

 

The Librarian would of course bring his own damage via a force weapon which would need to be factored in, so that'd reduce the number of Hammers needed to be worth it, plus the ability to cast 2 powers means potentially both +1A and 4++ buffs, or +1A and Smite for extra damage (pending successful rolls).

 

As you say though, having one with a JP or Bike acting as a roaming support character might be the best way to go. It could zip around to provide the buffs where needed. Heck, even take a few of them in larger games to roam different areas. Good support and no slackers when it comes to a scrap themselves.

[Thoridon]

 

Besides whether it's worthwhile points wise, in matched play you can only attempt each power once per turn (bar smite) regardless of number of psykers who know it - rules, pg 215.

 

 

That'd prevent maintaining the +1A on multiple units in matched play but wouldn't prevent the same psyker attempting both +1A and 4++ on the same unit (assuming thek know both and have the ability to cast 2 per turn).

 

It'd just mean choosing the buff recipients wisely and putting other psykers in good positions to utilise Smite.

[Arkhanist]

 

 

Besides whether it's worthwhile points wise, in matched play you can only attempt each power once per turn (bar smite) regardless of number of psykers who know it - rules, pg 215.

 

 

That'd prevent maintaining the +1A on multiple units in matched play but wouldn't prevent the same psyker attempting both +1A and 4++ on the same unit (assuming thek know both and have the ability to cast 2 per turn).

 

 

Oh indeed, and that's what I'm planning to do with a mobile libby - they all seem to know and can cast at least 2 powers a turn. I was just flagging you can't scale it across multiple units at once. One thing you can do is take a codex chapter libby as 2nd psyker; his powers are different so can be used too - might of heroes is particularly tasty on a beatstick character. The codex chapter libby can't take advantage of BA buffs himself though, and costs may make it prohibitive for smaller games, but it's still a possibility.

 

More libbys also helps get you more table coverage for deny the witch, which may well be important against a psyker-heavy opponent spamming smite (1k sons spring to mind)

[Thoridon]

A Codex librarian would certainly be handy for the charge reroll (if not running Lemartes close, or for a 2nd DC unit), and/or for ensuring they still go first if a combat is prolonged.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hmm so since the death company seem to be anti horse currently which is pretty good considering that hordes are the new hotness (conscripts, boys, and nids) so any ideas for loadouts for them?

 

It seems that the old 1 fist per 5 is gone since we don't have as many buffs and PW's are pretty cheap so maybe 2-3 power weapons?

[Xenith]

Hmm so since the death company seem to be anti horse currently which is pretty good considering that hordes are the new hotness (conscripts, boys, and nids) so any ideas for loadouts for them?

 

It seems that the old 1 fist per 5 is gone since we don't have as many buffs and PW's are pretty cheap so maybe 2-3 power weapons?

 

I wouldn't say fists are gone, they will still be useful.

 

Decreased power weapon cost should see them going to more then 1 per 5, same with pistols. If you want a flexible DC unit, a couple of swords in there will help, or a sword and axe.