Using Veterans Now?

[DarthWaffle]

Newer AM player here. Got in very late in 7th, but really didn't play too much. 

 

Like many, I was aiming to run a mech guard list with veterans as the backbone.  With their movement to Elites and the removal of doctrines, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to run my lads. 

 

We have the traditional options:

• Meltacide in Valkyrie or Chimera
• Demo Vets in Valkyrie 
• Plasma Vets with Carapace in Chimera
• Sniper vets with an Auto cannon and camocloaks (for objective holding)

Are any of these builds still viable? I'm sensing that they can still be good in a Valkyrie with Melta and shotguns. Still a suicide squad, but effective. 

 

Thoughts? How are you guys going to be running Veterans? 

Edited June 13, 2017 by DarthWaffle

[H311fi5h]

3x plasma gun + plasma pistol + heavy flamer in a chimera with double HF + SB. Maybe a vox if you run a network. That's a pretty solid squad I'd say. No more carapace though :(

[Withershadow]

If you want carapace, you're better off taking Stormtroopers.

 

I've posted this a couple of times before, but I'm tempted to test a gunline of two Catachan vet squads loaded with plasma guns and lascannons, with Straken, Harker, and Commissar (and optional priest).  With orders and Harker bonus, they can shoot overcharged plasma and re-roll 1s to hit and to wound.  They are effectively immune to morale, and anyone who gets in combat with them gets smacked up to 3 timers per guy (not counting characters' attacks).

[micahwc]

Unfortunately camo cloaks and carapace armor are not available to Veterans in the index. For a comparable price of a tooled up Veteran squad you can get a scion squad which has several advantages. Scions have better armor, better BS, take a troop slot instead of an elite, and can deep strike anywhere more than 9" away from an enemy without having to take a Valkyrie or bring a transport.

 

Demo charges sound good, but I think meltaguns are better just because you can reuse them. Supercharged plasma guns statistically are better than meltaguns outside of melta range, but they can get hot. I don't think sniper rifles will be worth it, just because by the time you pay for a Veteran squad you are really close to the cost of a Vindicare assassin, which will do better at sniping characters.

 

For now, I think the best way to use Veterans is to proxy scions with them. Hopefully this will change when a codex is released.

[micahwc]

A Scion Command Squad with 4 plasma guns and a Tempestor Prime with Power Sword is 103 points for 16 plasma shots that can reroll 1's to hit and can drop within rapid fire range on any of your turns.

 

A comparable Veteran squad is 112 points for 10 guys and 4 plasma guns, no deep strike, no rerolling 1s, worse in close combat, worse armor, etc.

[Gothical]

There's a couple of ways I think they can work:

 

3 Melta, Shotguns, Power Fist, maybe a Heavy Flamer. Stick them in a Taurox/Chimera/Valkyrie and go hunting with them.

 

3 Plasma Guns, Missile Launcher. Placed in cover these guys are really quite annoying to deal with and can deal with a range of targets thanks to having the option to Supercharge and use the Krak Missile.

 

3 Grenade Launchers, Heavy Flamer, Power Weapon. Use these as a screening unit, 3D6 BS3+ S4 shots hurt quite a lot, and you can always use Kraks against something tougher. Take the charge (Overwatch!), placing as many casualties as possible on the "regular" models, then in your turn Fall Back from the combat and give the unit the Get Back In The Fight order to use their firepower. This can be repeated as many times as you have enough men left to make using the order worthwhile, making them a right pain in your opponents plans and preventing them from rolling through your lines.

[NatBrannigan]

I'm pretty sue Veterans will make a comeback when the codex proper is released but they are hurting at the moment. Not firing out of transports is another problem now.

 

I'd be tempted to run them cheap for the moment, just Infantry squads with a better BS.

[WarriorFish]

It's likely just the lack of flavour everything has currently, all the detailed bits are gone no doubt part due to getting everyone updated rules out and part intending to return them in the full codices? I imagine it would be easier to add them to existing rules along with the necessary tweaks, plus I'm sure the added incentive for us to buy wasn't missed either ;) They still serve a role though, as multiple special weapons and BS3+ makes for a different approach to a standard Platoon and options are always good.

[Toxichobbit]

Scions have better armor, better BS, take a troop slot instead of an elite, and can deep strike anywhere more than 9" away from an enemy without having to take a Valkyrie or bring a transport.

 

Do you mean better WS? Scions and Veterans both have BS 3+.

[micahwc]

My bad.

[Brother Talarian]

I can see a squad of vets kitted with three Flamers and a Heavy Flamer, the rest with shotguns, riding along in a chimera with two heavy Flamers to be pretty devastating. Not to mention they'll then have 10 additional Str 4 shots. There's also room for 2 more crew if you needed he extra support

 

Edit: For some added fun: add a vanilla unit of troops in a chimera with two heavy Flamers and bring along a commissar, company commander, and astropath/psyxher.

 

Can zoom up a flank and establish some hurt/a nuxe kittle firing base. The chimeras can set up definitively to prevent a good charge, or charge themselves.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Brother Talarian

[DarthWaffle]

Thanks for the responses guys! 

 

I'm really liking the idea of flamers on a Heavy flamer Chimera (though I'm going to have to do some work to my MM/HB configs, so up yours GW for making me change stuff).

 

Shotgun vets look sick (visually) and decent this edition so I think minimum I'm making up one squad of them. They'll have a fat target on their heads, but I'm thinking that guard in this edition are just going to generally have to put down more bodies to be effective. 

 

Cheers! 

[zero88]

Being able to have FOUR flame weapons in the squad while still having six ablative bodies is one of their biggest assets at the moment, so those paired with shotguns get one of my votes, even if it wastes the BS3+

 

Meltacide gets another vote as well, since it seems to be a timeless tactic.

 

Finally, 3 Grenade Launchers and a Heavy Bolter make for an interesting objective camping unit.. at 83pts for 10 bodies it is dirt cheap, and can lay down 3D6+5 S3 shots with a 30" threat range plus the HB. Will it win wars no, but it's not bad for the investment.

[Feral_80]

At the moment, there is little point in taking Vets. Most of thei uses, you can achieve better and/or cheaper with command squads, special weapons squads, and scions.

[Bronze Katana]

At the moment, there is little point in taking Vets. Most of thei uses, you can achieve better and/or cheaper with command squads, special weapons squads, and scions.

Yeah. 3 command squads in a Chimera with flamers. That's 9 flamers and 5 heavy flamers. Expensive though...

Edited June 14, 2017 by Bronze Katana

[Feral_80]

If I had to do that, I'd rather take 4 command squads with 4 plasma each. At least I'm using that BS 3+ that I'm paying for. All fit into 1 Chimera, a nasty nasty surprise.

Flamers, take 2x special weapons squad with 3 flamers each. You put 2 into a flame-Chimera and you get still a lot of bbq potential.

 

Sure these squads do not come for free, but they are certainly very convenient point-wise. And all are better than Vets.

[lash144]

Flamers, take 2x special weapons squad with 3 flamers each. You put 2 into a flame-Chimera and you get still a lot of bbq potential.

 

 

Would you consider some mixing of flamers and demolition charges? E.g. 2 flamers and a demo charge per SWS

[Feral_80]

Well since you can split fire, why not. However, I probably would not: Being very short-ranged weapons they depend heavily on positioning the squad as you disembark it. You might wish to engage different targets, and mixing them may add some unneeded complexity to positioning.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I still think Vets can have something of a use, just for relatively cheap backup lasgun fire, as well as providing an extra 5 or 6 wounds the enemy has to crunch through before before getting to the tough stuff. Means you actually have a chance of getting two turns from those special weapons. Especially if you coordinate multiple threats crashing into the enemy line at the same time. 2 vet squads, each with a double heavy flamer Chimera, and a Banewolf, for example, are going to put a lot of stress on the enemies targeting priorities. Helps allow another turn of pounding away with artillery, or lining up mass conscripts right behind the veterans for some unholy FRFSRF.   

[duz_]

I think vet's will shine once the codex drops. This is when I suspect we will see doctrines come back and then they can truly shine. 

Would be awesome if we could get some more deployment options infiltration / scout / outflank / reserves what ever that might be.

Elite veterans would be a good way to enable that. 

[NatBrannigan]

I actually think it's promising they've been moved to Elites, if frustrating in the short term.

 

Scions as troops works if the Scion Codex has been folded into the future main Guard Codex, a sensible move in my opinion.

 

Elite veterans in a future Guard Codex probably means that Doctrines will be back and they'll make the Elite slot worth while for them. A bit of forward planning? The same reason that the <Regiment> Keyword is kind of useless at the moment unless you want to use Cadian or Catachan special Characters.

 

I really like the new 8th list, and as another older head I like that Vets are back in the Elite slot where they belong! I'm really hopeful that when the Guard Codex comes out it's going to be fantastic.

[Bronze Katana]

 The same reason that the <Regiment> Keyword is kind of useless at the moment unless you want to use Cadian or Catachan special Characters.

 

...unless you want to bring the cheese, making your whole list Militarum Auxilla - "Fix Bayonets" or "Move! Move! Move!" orders for Bullgryns...

[Feral_80]

...which they cannot receive, since Ogryns have no <regiment> keyword and thus cannot take orders.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Feral_80

[Harrowmaster]

I think he means choosing militarum auxilia as the regiment and then issuing orders. It's not expressly forbidden but will likely get some funny looks.

[Feral_80]

That does not really look legal, but rather a silly way to get around the rules. It would be so good if people avoided adding this kind of bull:cuss to 8th ed.