Speculative: Chapters with Traitor Geneseed: A Compilation

[Sun Reaver]

Brothers! Since hearing about the Blood Ravens, I have had a slight obsession in finding and learning about Loyalist Space Marine Chapters that have been created with traitor geneseed. I had searched for a compilation but have yet to find one. Thus, realizing there was a need for one, I have decided to help create and update a list of all the chapters who either hinted or strongly implied at carrying traitor geneseed. 

 

I will be listing all of the traitor legions and their potential descendants. Furthermore, I will be rating how likely they are actually derived by the parent legion as well as information pertaining as to why in the first place. Please feel free to correct me or add to the information. 
 
I also hope to promote healthy discussion about potential chapters who can be added to this list as well. So without further ado, here are the most popular references I have seen or come across. Again, I hope we can add more to this list as times goes on. 

 

III - Emperor's Children 

1. Red Scorpions 

• Likelihood: Medium
• They have an unknown founding and they are particular stringent about their gene-seed. They are obsessed with purity to the point of obsession and Apothecaries are a major element of their structural organization. I believe, every squad has one.
• They are primarily pictured in Mark IV armor and abhor the mutant and alien with exceptional zeal. Coincidentally, their Captains are called "Commanders" and their Chapter Master is referred to as " Lord High Commander." 
• The obsession with being as pure as possible as well as the naming system could be a link between them and the Emperor's Children. 

 

IV - Iron Warriors

1. Silver Skulls

• Likelihood: Low 
• They seem like an obvious choice as the Silver Skull is quite similar to the legion's original symbol and look. This could be a nod to Barabas Dantioch, a loyalist Iron Warrior who was instrumental in helping Roboute Guilliman during Imperium Secundus. 

VIII - Night Lords

1. Unkown

XII - World Eaters

1. Minotaurs 

• Likelihood: High
• Part of the 21st founding, also known as the "Cursed" Founding. This founding was known for birthing a bunch of chapters that are quite unique. Many fell to Chaos. 
• They are savage. They believe in unending, unrelenting application of brutal warfare to get the job done. They also favor a heavy Greco-Roman theme that is similar to the gladiator themes of the World Eaters. 
• No Butcher's Nails but the fact that their style of battle is compared to the World Eaters is quite the feat. 
• According to Forgeworld, their geneseed origins have been redacted. 

 

XIV - Death Guard

1. Sons of Antaeus

• Likelihood: Low
• Part of the 21st founding, also known as the "Cursed" Founding. This founding was known for birthing a bunch of chapters that are quite unique. Many fell to Chaos. 
• They have been described as larger and tougher than the average marine. Additionally, they are extremely resilient, sometimes withstanding wounds that would kill a regular Space Marine. 
• Apparently, their skeletons have been reinforced with artificial substances. 
• The main link between them and the Death Guard seems to be their resiliency. 

XV - Thousand Sons

1. Blood Ravens

• Likelihood: Very High
• Egyptian and Librarian references galore. 

Taken from BOLS 

 

• The Blood Ravens are established to have enough similarities in battle doctrine (i.e. high number of psykers and the use thereof) to the Thousand Sons that it has been noted by observers within the fiction itself.
• The pre-Heresy heraldry of the Thousand Sons is similar to the heraldry of the Blood Ravens; specifically the Thousand Sons Corvidae cult, who as well as wearing the red armour of all Thousand Sons, also sport a black raven insignia (though admittedly of just the raven’s head rather than the whole bird).
• The psyker Kallista Eris had a vision concerning the fate of the Thousand Sons shortly before the Burning of Prospero. Among other things she mentioned “The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!” There are several possible interpretations of these words, but the language used is clearly pertinent to Blood Ravens speculation.
• The Blood Ravens’ motto “Knowledge is power” was uttered by the Thousand Son Corvidae member Revuel Arvida upon his decision to dedicate himself to discovering the true causes of his Legion’s destruction and combat them. Arvida was a member of the fleet-elements of the Thousand Sons who were sent into hiding by Magnus prior to the Space Wolves' attack upon the Legion and therefore did not fall to Chaos during the Burning of Prospero. Thus we have a non-Chaos aligned Corvidae Son dedicating himself to fighting the Ruinous Powers in the future. It is also worth mentioning that his name, Revuel Arvida, has certain stylistic similarities to that of Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens. This motto was also stated by the Thousand Son Mhotep whilst locked in combat with a daemon. A counter-point to this potential link is that the Blood Ravens motto is a tenet uttered by various, non-Blood Raven individuals in a variety of other sources.
• The Blood Ravens’ Rahe's Paradise outpost was discovered to be built upon the ruins of a previous Astartes structure, one that dated from “ten millennia ago”. While no identification markings could be found upon it, a red-painted Astartes shoulder plate was excavated from these ruins. Additionally, these ancient Astartes were revealed to have allied themselves with Eldar forces present upon the planet to defeat a great evil, and to have agreed to maintain stewardship over the world in order to thwart this evil should it return. Ten millenia ago references the birth of the Imperium, although the Thousand Sons were not the only Astartes Legion to wear red as their primary colour at this time, seeing as the Blood Angels continue to do so (and one cannot dismiss the notion that this may include the two unknown Legions).
• During an incident on the planet Arcadia, Librarian Rhamah of the Blood Ravens suffered amnesia and fell in with the Prodigal Sons warband of Thousand Sons sorcerer-lord Ahriman. Throughout this association Ahriman and his warband referred to Rhamah variously as “Son of Ahriman”, “friend of Ahriman” and as a “lost brother”. Furthermore, when Rhamah locates an ancient Eldar tome – called the Un-Founding – that bears the crest of the Blood Ravens upon its cover, Ahriman concedes that he once owned a copy of the book and that another one was in the possession of Azariah Vidya (of whom Ahriman states, “I knew Vidya better than you might expect”). He further states to Rhamah “We are not so different, you and I. We were not always so different…there was a time, long ago, before the Change, when the Thousand Sons of Magnus wore the blood-red armour of their Primarch.” No explanation is given for what any of this means, and it should be noted that Ahriman is a master of deceit and trickery who was attempting to use Rhamah for his own ends.

 

 

 

 

XVI - Sons of Horus

1. Unknown

 

XVIII - Word Bearers

1. Unkown

 

XX - Alpha Legion

1. Sons of Orar

• Likelihood: Low
• I know what you are thinking, but hear me out.
• First off, the Chapter symbol is an Omega which could link the chapter to Omegon. 
• Unknown founding as during the battle of Eskrador, when the Ultramarines battle the Alpha Legion, one of the twin primarchs could have posed as Orar. Think about it. Orar was an Ultramarine who was relatively unheard of but he won great renown in the Horus Heresy. Very little information is given about him. 
• One bit of information was that he wanted to secure the Eastern Fringe from Xenos. This is on the edges of Ultramar and more importantly, is where the Battle of Eskrador was fought. They could be a loyalist faction of marines who likes to stay on the edges. If anything, maybe only the chapter command knows the secret or even just the Chapter Master. Very Alpha Legion like. 
• The relic that belonged to Orar was called the "Scepter of Galaxian" and which the Eldar were very interested in it. They even tried to steal it from the tomb of Orar. The Alpha Legion were in close contact with the Kabal - led by Eldar. 
• Shout out to GunnedMonk for the original theory. 

 

Looking forward to adding to and developing this list further with you guys!

 

EDIT: Removed Honorable Mentions - Carcharodons. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Sun Reaver

[RandomMarine]

Sons of anteus are primaris marine test run IMO . think about it taller than normal Astartes and can take wound that would kill a normal marine out right (2w).

 

And don't forget that some loyalists in the HH had divergent geneseed like autek mor represented by t5 in the statline

[SickSix]

I think the Silver Skulls may very likely have some connection to Dantioch but they are Ultra geneseed. There has never been any controversy over their Geneseed. They had no problem letting an Inquisitor inspect their gene vault.

 

The only controversy with them is their reliance on pyskers to make decisions.

 

Otherwise I really like your list and it's all mostly reasonable.

[old git]

As a Scorps player I have to express my horror at having such base accusations laid at our door 

 

Naming conventions are a tenuous connection at best. I'll give the purity and apothecary thing though...

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

People need to stop spreading the NL and chimeric meme. It has zero evidence in the text yet people keep spreading it around. Having a single ship with Ursus Claws in a BL novel where the author admits to using fan models as inspiration isn't proof of WE geneseed. The old ass meme of them being NL has even less proof, as any of it can either be attributed to arbitrary rules (Fear from 6E which never existed before 2013) or being RG traits that people just mistakenly attribute to NL.

 

Have any of the people who constantly repeat these incorrect facts even read the text entirely from IA10 or Red Tithe? My guess is no.

 

Even putting it as an "honorable mention" is keeping this bad information alive.

[Galron]

I would say Silver Skulls have a very high probability of being IW. There were afterall two entirely separate groups of IW who sided with the loyalists including the one who helped out Capt Rob. We know they did not eliminate loyalist traitors especially after they put their lives on the line to fight against the traitors. Not only is the Silver Skulls symbol the same as IW, their paint scheme is as well barring the lack of hazard stripes.

 

I am with Old Git, get your mind out of the toilet, Red Scorps are in no way, shape or form related to the Emperor's Children. Go outside and self flagellate yourself for 50 lashes. They are a later creation of Mars in an attempt to create a Geneseed free from flaws.

 

Hawk Lords I could easily be being from the Emp Children. They have the same paint scheme and surprisingly little is known about them.

[Captain_Krash]

It's been all but confirmed in Red Tithe that Carcharodon's are RG successors.

 

Great list overall.

 

Hawk lords are from the Ultramarine 21st legion "The Hawks" at least this is more than likely the "Hawk Lords"

 

Aren't the Soul Drinkers suspect to not being of Imperial Fist origin?

 

Krash

[General Strike]

Hopefully we find out more about the Blood Ravens with the release of FWs Angelos mini.

[Brother Casman]

I am shocked, shocked, that you would besmirch the honour of these exceedingly loyal and heroic chapters by implying that their origins are anything less than the highest quality! I decree that anyone spreading such baseless rumours shall go on a Penitence Crusade, lasting not less than 50 years, visiting at least one monument to the fallen heroes of these chapters, returning only once they have truly repented.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ryltar Thamior]

A word of caution on the Minotaurs speculation - we aren't, strictly speaking, sure whether the 21st Founding Minotaurs are the same as the bronzed Space-Spartans everybody knows and loves from Badab etc. [not least due to somewaht divergent colour-scheme, different style of operation, and the fact that the modern Minotaurs appear far more ... uh ... stable? than the other chapter to bear the name] 

[now, there IS a legion whose modus operandi the modern Minotaurs bear a bit of a resemblance to, which isn't the XIIth ... but that's another story :P ] 

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Consecrators, Angels of Vengeance and the Angels of Absolution are potentially of traitor stock. Not very likely but if your evidence mostly consists of memes

[Sun Reaver]

Appreciate everyone's feedback, even the not so subtle rude ones. At the end of the day, this is just to promote discussion and have fun with the hobby on another level. I can see the issue Carcharodons and will remove them form Honorable Mentions. 

 

In terms of the Red Scorpions, naming conventions probably have very little weight but a chapter obsessed with purity to such a high degree as they are does bring some suspicion. You can't but wonder what they are trying to hide. 

[Paradigm]

If Red Scorpions are potential 3rd legion stock (not sure how likely this really is though), the Death Eagles are as close to confirmed as it gets to 3rd legion loyalist remnants. There was a loyalist company in the 3rd named the Death Eagles, and they used to have a very EC paint scheme, and when the HH books were written the early Death Eagles were used as inspiration for that company.

 

You got to remember after 10,000 years the character of these chapters has had a lot of time to change. They don't have to have a lot in common, attitude or character wise to be descended, nor tactics or even genetic flaws. The Blood Ravens don't have a lot in common with how the old TSons did business, for example, and the Mortifactors are Ultras after all.

 

The Silver Skulls have a low probability of being iron warrior descendants, but are likely named in honor of Dantioch.

 

The Minotaurs have confirmation as Iron Warrior successors. (By the Badab writers, not an in universe one) They were designed this way, in other words, when they were reimagined for the Badab War books. The legion's character has far more in common with them than the World Eaters, even pre-heresy, even pre-Angron. Even the 40k Iron Warriors use similar tactics.

 

Soul Drinkers are semi-cannon 2nd founding. If they are cannon they are Dorn's kids, Hawk Lords are def Ultras, Space Sharks are def RG exiles. The 12th has a few known loyalists, but we don't know what happened to them after the Heresy. We do know at least some of the Loyalist Death Guard were given companies during the scouring. So it isn't far fetched their 12th legion brethren would have the same honor. However I suspect it's pretty difficult to put anyone with the Butcher's Nails in a position requiring reliability, so they're likely old war hounds, not world eaters.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Soul Drinkers are semi-cannon 2nd founding. If they are cannon they are Dorn's kids

 

First, it's "canon."  A cannon is a firearm.  Second, the Soul Drinkers were confirmed as not being sons of Dorn during the events of Phalanx, when Sarpedon et al were put on trial.

[Ryltar Thamior]

If Red Scorpions are potential 3rd legion stock (not sure how likely this really is though), the Death Eagles are as close to confirmed as it gets to 3rd legion loyalist remnants. There was a loyalist company in the 3rd named the Death Eagles, and they used to have a very EC paint scheme, and when the HH books were written the early Death Eagles were used as inspiration for that company.

 

You got to remember after 10,000 years the character of these chapters has had a lot of time to change. They don't have to have a lot in common, attitude or character wise to be descended, nor tactics or even genetic flaws. The Blood Ravens don't have a lot in common with how the old TSons did business, for example, and the Mortifactors are Ultras after all.

 

The Silver Skulls have a low probability of being iron warrior descendants, but are likely named in honor of Dantioch.

 

The Minotaurs have confirmation as Iron Warrior successors. (By the Badab writers, not an in universe one) They were designed this way, in other words, when they were reimagined for the Badab War books. The legion's character has far more in common with them than the World Eaters, even pre-heresy, even pre-Angron. Even the 40k Iron Warriors use similar tactics.

 

Soul Drinkers are semi-cannon 2nd founding. If they are cannon they are Dorn's kids, Hawk Lords are def Ultras, Space Sharks are def RG exiles. The 12th has a few known loyalists, but we don't know what happened to them after the Heresy. We do know at least some of the Loyalist Death Guard were given companies during the scouring. So it isn't far fetched their 12th legion brethren would have the same honor. However I suspect it's pretty difficult to put anyone with the Butcher's Nails in a position requiring reliability, so they're likely old war hounds, not world eaters.

 

I would absolutely love a source on Minotaurs being IVth successors for ... reasons

Appreciate everyone's feedback, even the not so subtle rude ones. At the end of the day, this is just to promote discussion and have fun with the hobby on another level. I can see the issue Carcharodons and will remove them form Honorable Mentions. 

 

In terms of the Red Scorpions, naming conventions probably have very little weight but a chapter obsessed with purity to such a high degree as they are does bring some suspicion. You can't but wonder what they are trying to hide. 

Don't let 'em get you down :P It's a grand idea for a thread and I'm pretty pleased that somebody's taking the effort to go through and collate all the speculation/supporting evidence in this area :D 

[blackoption]

 

If Red Scorpions are potential 3rd legion stock (not sure how likely this really is though), the Death Eagles are as close to confirmed as it gets to 3rd legion loyalist remnants. There was a loyalist company in the 3rd named the Death Eagles, and they used to have a very EC paint scheme, and when the HH books were written the early Death Eagles were used as inspiration for that company.

 

You got to remember after 10,000 years the character of these chapters has had a lot of time to change. They don't have to have a lot in common, attitude or character wise to be descended, nor tactics or even genetic flaws. The Blood Ravens don't have a lot in common with how the old TSons did business, for example, and the Mortifactors are Ultras after all.

 

The Silver Skulls have a low probability of being iron warrior descendants, but are likely named in honor of Dantioch.

 

The Minotaurs have confirmation as Iron Warrior successors. (By the Badab writers, not an in universe one) They were designed this way, in other words, when they were reimagined for the Badab War books. The legion's character has far more in common with them than the World Eaters, even pre-heresy, even pre-Angron. Even the 40k Iron Warriors use similar tactics.

 

Soul Drinkers are semi-cannon 2nd founding. If they are cannon they are Dorn's kids, Hawk Lords are def Ultras, Space Sharks are def RG exiles. The 12th has a few known loyalists, but we don't know what happened to them after the Heresy. We do know at least some of the Loyalist Death Guard were given companies during the scouring. So it isn't far fetched their 12th legion brethren would have the same honor. However I suspect it's pretty difficult to put anyone with the Butcher's Nails in a position requiring reliability, so they're likely old war hounds, not world eaters.

I would absolutely love a source on Minotaurs being IVth successors for ... reasons

 

Alot of the theory is based around the rules between Legion Astartes: Iron Warriors and Chapter Tactics Minotaurs.  There are a number of similarities in both of those rule sets (No morale penalties for casualties from shooting for example).  Additionally, both are described as willing to take casualties and attrition warfare, and both preferred to fight in large formations overwhelming their opponents.  Additionally, both have strong Greco cultural influences

 

I cannot say I have heard of any writers claiming the link, but I am inclined to think that the Minotaurs are more Iron Warriors than World eaters.

[Paradigm]

Auto-correct gets me every time, I didn't think it was such a big deal to be worth an edit.

 

I haven't read phalanx, but that makes me quit happy. It's a chapter that has never really seemed to fit in with the Fists legacy.

 

The Iron Warriors thing was from a Facebook post with one of the play testers ( I thought it was a writer, but memory isn't great these days) for the Badab War books. Eadwine Brown owned a Minotaurs army, and commented on the greatly missed Alan Bligh's intentions during the writing of the badab war. This is what I meant by out of universe confirmation, the source isn't in a novel or codex or whatever. It also doesn't mean the older IA 10 Minotaurs weren't World Eaters, but it seems like they've been totally replaced in the fluff. So there may be two chapters, or the 21st founding Minotaurs may have been effectively retconned out of existence, even if that was not the initial idea.

 

For some reason my iPad is fighting me inserting a proper link. However here is the address to a screen grab of part of Eadwine Brown's discussion: https://postimg.org/image/xwguyh81f/

Apparently can't edit now, either, but glad the forum software figured it out.

[Laughingman]

In my mind I imagine the red scorpions as being the remains of a emperor's children force attached to a rouge trader during the last days of the great crusade. It explains the wide panoply of heresy era relics, as the emperors children were famous for having the gaudiest newest stuff during that era.  

[Ryltar Thamior]

Auto-correct gets me every time, I didn't think it was such a big deal to be worth an edit.

 

I haven't read phalanx, but that makes me quit happy. It's a chapter that has never really seemed to fit in with the Fists legacy.

 

The Iron Warriors thing was from a Facebook post with one of the play testers ( I thought it was a writer, but memory isn't great these days) for the Badab War books. Eadwine Brown owned a Minotaurs army, and commented on the greatly missed Alan Bligh's intentions during the writing of the badab war. This is what I meant by out of universe confirmation, the source isn't in a novel or codex or whatever. It also doesn't mean the older IA 10 Minotaurs weren't World Eaters, but it seems like they've been totally replaced in the fluff. So there may be two chapters, or the 21st founding Minotaurs may have been effectively retconned out of existence, even if that was not the initial idea.

 

For some reason my iPad is fighting me inserting a proper link. However here is the address to a screen grab of part of Eadwine Brown's discussion: https://postimg.org/image/xwguyh81f/

Apparently can't edit now, either, but glad the forum software figured it out.

 

That's pretty excellent - thanks :D 

 

Now this, of course, begs obvious questions as to why this particular source of  geneseed was chosen for the High Lords' own 'sanction' force of Astartes. I mean, on the one level I suppose they've got marked tendencies towards rational, logical thinking [rather htan some of the .. predilections of other legions which might lead to bad decision-making when engaging other Astartes forces [seriously, the numbero f times in teh course of reading the Heresy novels that one finds one's self going "how are the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus supposedly the best of the best again?"], and they also have a serious determination quality which might additionally be pretty helpful. Additionally, I guess they're pretty good at taking orders. 

 

Beyond that, the original 'sanction' legion - the Wolves - has a noted ill-suitedness when it comes to generating successors; and i suppose IVth legion gene-seed is pretty stable. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In my mind I imagine the red scorpions as being the remains of a emperor's children force attached to a rouge trader during the last days of the great crusade. It explains the wide panoply of heresy era relics, as the emperors children were famous for having the gaudiest newest stuff during that era.  

 

That certainly explains why they're Red Scorpions!

[dogfender]

As a Scorps player I have to express my horror at having such base accusations laid at our door  :verymad::verymad:

 

Naming conventions are a tenuous connection at best. I'll give the purity and apothecary thing though...

I wouldn't be so upset by that, it kinda makes sense considering the heavy parallels between them and Nazis. What is their color scheme? What are they striving for/ obsessed with? What do space marines do on a massive scale?

Though I guess you could argue different aspects for the Relictors as well. But it's really the purity above all that really sells it lol

[Skalpynock]

Know what Legion is obsessed with purity, may have Leviathan hulls left for late-fouding chapters, *and* is Loyalist? That's right, Iron Hands.

[Nova_Dew]

I think the Grey Knights were pretty much confirmed as having parts of all or at least most legions Geneseed (maybe even the missing 2) I dont know if thats still canon or ever was. might have been in one of the old chapter approved's in an old white dwarf or an old codex

[GrandMagnus]

i thought they had the Emperor's geneseed. Or are those the custodes?

[Petitioner's City]

i thought they had the Emperor's geneseed. Or are those the custodes?

 

The Emperor's geneseed seems a silly idea...but I guess it could mean things to resemble the Master of Mankind:

 

 

 

gene-seed is actually those germ cells and viral machines that have been genetically-engineered to develop into the various organs that are implanted into a normal human adolescent male to transform him into a Space Marine. [...] The term is most commonly used to refer to the contents of the Astartes Progenoid Glands which must be harvested by a Space Marine Apothecary so that its genetic material can be used to create a new generation of Astartes.

 

But I always still think "Emperor's Geneseed" is a misnomer.