Speculative: Chapters with Traitor Geneseed: A Compilation

[Paradigm]

We don't really know exactly what happened with the Grey Knights. We do know their founding leadership was from most of the legions, both loyalist and traitor, but we don't know what geneseed they used, or didn't use. Though right now they are hinting at a syncretic chapter where individuals may have geneseed from any one of the twenty legions.

 

It's relatively new canon, just since the Garro books.

 

The rumored emperor's geneseed is still a canon rumor in universe. Just the kind of thing to keep questions to a minimum.

[GrandMagnus]

Ah, I see my mistake. Good to know.

[Paradigm]

Until the Garro books were released it was the best lead into their origins, so if you haven't read those, you'd not have seen the new background.

[Gamiel]

Reanimating this thread with some comments:

Fan speculation have that Death Eagles and Sons of the Phoenix are of Emperor's Children gene-seed, this seems more or less only to be based on their colour scheme (or their original colour scheme when it comes to Death Eagles) and in the SotP cause that Phoenix is a symbol that's somewhat returning among the EC. 

 

Eadwine Brown, one of the playtester for the Badab War campaign and the creator of the current incarnation of the Minotaurs chapter, has publicly stated that they are of Iron Warriors geneseed. But that has not been confirmed IU.

 

On 6/15/2017 at 6:57 PM, Sun Reaver said:

1. Blood Ravens

• Likelihood: Very High

But since the BR don't suffer from anything like the flesh-change would I put the likelihood as Low. 

 

[redmapa]

Death Eagles is way more than just speculation, Forgeworld gave some very big nudges to more than hint they were at least partly founded by EC loyalists who called themselves Death Eagles during the heresy. Their fate is unknown and so is the Chapters founding, all the dots are there and it doesn't take much to join them imo so it might not be set in stone but it's some serious hinting and winking from FW.

Also apparently the original scheme for the Death Eagles was white and purple, who else fought in the heresy with their original purple and white colors? Emperors Children Death Eagles! 

[BrainFireBob]

5 hours ago, Gamiel said:

Reanimating this thread with some comments:

Fan speculation have that Death Eagles and Sons of the Phoenix are of Emperor's Children gene-seed, this seems more or less only to be based on their colour scheme (or their original colour scheme when it comes to Death Eagles) and in the SotP cause that Phoenix is a symbol that's somewhat returning among the EC. 

 

Eadwine Brown, one of the playtester for the Badab War campaign and the creator of the current incarnation of the Minotaurs chapter, has publicly stated that they are of Iron Warriors geneseed. But that has not been confirmed IU.

 

But since the BR don't suffer from anything like the flesh-change would I put the likelihood as Low. 

 

Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to protect his Sons from the flesh change.

 

There were little more than 1K at the time.

 

Now there are the Sorcs and Blood Ravens- a bit over a 1k. In short, the deal for his eye may still be in force

Edited September 11, 2022 by BrainFireBob

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ravens they can’t help liking shiney bits .

[MasterDeath]

I would like to add the covenant of fire, as a very likely word bearer successor. Chapter symbol is pre-heresy WB, Modus operandi as seekers of lore and burners of books. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

16 hours ago, Gamiel said:

Reanimating this thread with some comments:

Fan speculation have that Death Eagles and Sons of the Phoenix are of Emperor's Children gene-seed, this seems more or less only to be based on their colour scheme (or their original colour scheme when it comes to Death Eagles) and in the SotP cause that Phoenix is a symbol that's somewhat returning among the EC.

Well, AND the Phoenix/Phoenician connection, the latter beng one of Fulgrim's titles. He figuratively raised Chemos from the ashes, the SoP similarly claim to be reborn from the fires of war.

[Gamiel]

 

On 9/10/2022 at 11:12 PM, redmapa said:

Death Eagles is way more than just speculation, Forgeworld gave some very big nudges to more than hint they were at least partly founded by EC loyalists who called themselves Death Eagles during the heresy. Their fate is unknown and so is the Chapters founding, all the dots are there and it doesn't take much to join them imo so it might not be set in stone but it's some serious hinting and winking from FW.

Huh, did not know that I admit. Makes the theory a bit more understandable. Would still say that it is still speculation since nothing have been said that those Death Eagles are what will become the DE chapter, remember when lots of peole belived that it would be revealed that Barabas Dantioch was secretly the first chapter master of the Silver Skulls? And then he died. 

 

On 9/10/2022 at 11:12 PM, redmapa said:

Also apparently the original scheme for the Death Eagles was white and purple, who else fought in the heresy with their original purple and white colors? Emperors Children Death Eagles! 

But by that logic should the Sons of Jaghatai, Hawk Lords & Knights of Byzantium also be EC successors, the Dark Hunters, Crimson Fist & Death Strike be Um succesors,  and Red Templars, Red Talons & Rampagers be BA successors.

 

On 9/11/2022 at 10:50 AM, MasterDeath said:

I would like to add the covenant of fire, as a very likely word bearer successor. Chapter symbol is pre-heresy WB, 

And the Hawk Lords have the RG symbol, the Red Wolves & Shadow Wolves have the SW symbol, the Iron Fist have the IF symbol, etc., that don't make them successors of those Legions. And by that logic should all successors that have a raptor's head or a skull as their symbol be of the same gene-line.

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Modus operandi as seekers of lore and burners of books. 

Likes burning stuff? Sounds like Salamanders to me. They are also eager followers of the Promethean Cult and Vulcan's wisdom

Next you will tell me that the Lords of Silence are very likely fallen Ultramarines because they are good at accounting and keeping records ;) :P 

 

I'm not saying it's not possible, just that saying that calling it "very likely" feel a bit to far. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Gamiel
remove something that was a repetition of something mentioned in the OP that I had missed

[Gamiel]

I have seen this theory that the Iron Snakes are Alpha Legion successors, do anybody know if this is based on anything more than "Alpha Legion have somewhat of a snake motive = anybody with snake in their name/symbol are AL successor" and "they are not daddy jr. in how they fight/organise"?

 

Similar, I have seen this theory that the Shadow Wolves chapter are Lunar Wolves successors, do anybody know what this is based on?

 

[Dumah]

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

I have seen this theory that the Iron Snakes are Alpha Legion successors, do anybody know if this is based on anything more than "Alpha Legion have somewhat of a snake motive = anybody with snake in their name/symbol are AL successor" and "they are not daddy jr. in how they fight/organise"?

 

Wishful headcanon/bad memes is really all it is, if you ask me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

There is absolutely nothing about the Iron Snakes or the Alpha Legion that suggests a connection.

[Gamiel]

On 6/15/2017 at 6:57 PM, Sun Reaver said:

XX - Alpha Legion

1. Sons of Orar

• Likelihood: Low
• I know what you are thinking, but hear me out.
• First off, the Chapter symbol is an Omega which could link the chapter to Omegon. 
• Unknown founding as during the battle of Eskrador, when the Ultramarines battle the Alpha Legion, one of the twin primarchs could have posed as Orar. Think about it. Orar was an Ultramarine who was relatively unheard of but he won great renown in the Horus Heresy. Very little information is given about him. 
• One bit of information was that he wanted to secure the Eastern Fringe from Xenos. This is on the edges of Ultramar and more importantly, is where the Battle of Eskrador was fought. They could be a loyalist faction of marines who likes to stay on the edges. If anything, maybe only the chapter command knows the secret or even just the Chapter Master. Very Alpha Legion like. 
• The relic that belonged to Orar was called the "Scepter of Galaxian" and which the Eldar were very interested in it. They even tried to steal it from the tomb of Orar. The Alpha Legion were in close contact with the Kabal - led by Eldar. 
• Shout out to GunnedMonk for the original theory. 

 

Based on this kind of evidence would I, in the name of silly fun, like to nominate the Sons of Jaghatai as AL successors. After all their symbol have an lowercase alpha as part of it, they are purple (the original HH era AL colour), and we know nothing about them beside their name and colours.

There is also the Omega Marines, they don't just have an omega as part of their symbol but in their name! They are supposed to be founded in M40, but that's clearly a lie. Wake up sheepeople! :P  

 

[Codex Grey]

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Wishful headcanon/bad memes is really all it is, if you ask me.

You could say that about most (if not all) these theories. Still fun to theorize and speculate.

Quote

There is absolutely nothing about the Iron Snakes or the Alpha Legion that suggests a connection.

Except for the thematic link, which, again, could be said for many of these theories. Not only the aesthetics (greek inspired snake symbolism), but the organizational focus on highly independent squads, which is similar to the Alpha Legion.

To me, that's the ultimate purpose of these Chapters. To provide loyalist alternatives in the current timeline to the themes usually associated with Traitor Legions. Whether or not they're actually based on traitor geneseed is up each and everyone to decide. Personally, I think only a few of these have provide enough clues for this to be the case, though. For example, the Iron Warriors - Silver Skulls link is very weak, mostly based on heraldry, and their reliance on Librarians doesn't really scream Iron Warriors. Though, it doesn't rule out the possibility.

[Gamiel]

On 6/15/2017 at 6:57 PM, Sun Reaver said:

IV - Iron Warriors

1. Silver Skulls

• Likelihood: Low 
• They seem like an obvious choice as the Silver Skull is quite similar to the legion's original symbol and look. This could be a nod to Barabas Dantioch, a loyalist Iron Warrior who was instrumental in helping Roboute Guilliman during Imperium Secundus. 

Just found this collections of copies of tweets by Sarah Cawkwell where she outright state that the Silver Skull are not of IW descendants. And while I know that those things can be faked is there is also this post from this year (´22) :

And if you open the replies she write that she originally planed to have them as White Scars successors, before being told by the powers that be that the Silver Skulls were of Ultra gene-stock. 

 

[Gamiel]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:50 AM, Codex Grey said:

Except for the thematic link, which, again, could be said for many of these theories. Not only the aesthetics (greek inspired snake symbolism), but the organizational focus on highly independent squads, which is similar to the Alpha Legion.

Would not say that the Iron Snakes are good loyalist 40k alternatives to the 40k AL since the laters focus is not so much highly independent squads as "we infiltrated you before you know we were here", "secrets and lies", "plans within plans", the use of well-trained and motivated human agents to do their bidding, and "we have somehow turned/replaced/brainwashed one or more of the people that's closest to you".

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Mentor Legion would perhaps make more sense as Alpha Legion equivalents? With their reliance on highly trained human operatives.

[Jamafore]

On 9/18/2022 at 3:03 PM, Sword Brother Adelard said:

The Mentor Legion would perhaps make more sense as Alpha Legion equivalents? With their reliance on highly trained human operatives.

 

True, but I think in the Emperor's Spears novel, they were confirmed to be Ultramarine successors due to the fact that them and the Spear's bitz were compatible. IIRC, one of the character's makes mention of something to that effect but I don't have the book close by to check

[Gamiel]

45 minutes ago, Jamafore said:

True, but I think in the Emperor's Spears novel, they were confirmed to be Ultramarine successors due to the fact that them and the Spear's bitz were compatible. IIRC, one of the character's makes mention of something to that effect but I don't have the book close by to check

You remember right.

[Cleon]

Re-reading this as it' come back to life, there's a middle ground that never occurred to me before.

What if some of the second founding chapters were staffed with loyalists from the triator legions in some of their companies, but implanted new marines with Loyalist gene seed?

For example - a group of say 400 Loyalist Iron warriors were stood up as the veteran and line companies of the Silver Skulls, but given reserve companies to train and lead made up of fresh Ultramarine recruits, Ultramarine Apothecaries and instruction to only harvest and implant the Ultramarine Gene seed?

It deals with the 'well you arent going to waste (potentially) thousands of proven loyal Marines at the end of the Heresey, but you don't want to keep the gene seed around long term, let their legacy live on in name, but not in genes.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I like that idea, it makes a lot of logical sense, you don't waste a valuable resource, but don't risk the geneseed being problematic in the future. 

[Gamiel]

Regarding the Blood Ravens linage do I personally like the joke theory that Trazyn is their primarch :P 

 

  

On 9/11/2022 at 3:34 PM, Lord Nord said:

Well, AND the Phoenix/Phoenician connection, the latter beng one of Fulgrim's titles. He figuratively raised Chemos from the ashes, the SoP similarly claim to be reborn from the fires of war.

But by that logic do the Angels Encarmine have a World Eaters connection since Angron was known as the Red Angel

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Gamiel

[WARMASTER_]

I think holistically a lot of the theories come from a slight lack of nuanced thinking when it comes to chapters and them having deviations [great or small] from their primogeniture chapters 

 

While it’s easy to say “The Iron Snakes are of Alpha Legion decent” simply because they have vague organisational and heraldic similarities, it also takes a lot away from the depth of the setting. It’s a big galaxy and all chapters have a distinct identity so some cross over between iconography and divergence from combat and organisational doctrines is not only to be expected but it’s a certainty within the lore 

[Lord_Ikka]

Agreed- you can look at the Luna Wolves and the Space Wolves to see how similar naming conventions don't imply any relation.