The 8th Edition Learning Curve with Astra Militarum

[Rob40k]

Had another look at the Scout Sentinels and Armoured Sentinels, if I was going to go down that route, I'd go either Heavy Bolters or Heavy Flamers. Just keeping them cheap and cheerful, for I don't think 129pts for 3 with Heavy Bolters is too bad, or 156 for 3 with Heavy Flamers isn't too bad for what you get. 

 

But, when compared to Heavy Weapon Teams, they fall down a bit. for 144pts you can get 4x 3 Heavy Bolter Teams. Thats 4 times the fire power! 

 

As I look for the most effecient units, Sentinels just don't the mustard. They're a cool idea and if I want/need more Command Points, they're not a bad fast attack choice! 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Rob40k

[Gen.Steiner]

Well, at least you considered them! :)

[Rob40k]

Well, at least you considered them!

Oh yes, I will consider everything. 

At some point, I have to try Ratlings. 10 for 70pts seems very good to me. Being able to move and still hit on a 4+ then move again! Seems very powerful/annoying for enemy characters, especially our very own Commissars and Commanders. But even more powerful Characters like Space Marine Captains or Ynnari Farseers. 

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've been eyeing Ratlings too myself.  Ironic that I'm liking all the "weird" stuff with the Guard except the standard troopers, but I guess it's now just looking for things to supplement my Inquisitorial Storm Troopers or shore up the long range firepower weakness.

 

I was considering allowing the Ratlings to be stationary for the movement phase to avoid any to hit penalties, then shoot, then take their "free move" if need be for their actual movement.  You also could technically play the Jump-shoot-jump game if you don't mind the penalty to keep them outside of line of sight.

 

I always considered Sentinels to be mobile heavy firepower, as opposed to the weapon teams which are stationary firepower.  They're a bit more durable in terms of toughness and armor (which still does come into play a bit), but mostly the heavy weapon teams take up so much real estate in terms of space and cover required.  Once you put them in a good spot, you just are inclined to not move them.  A Sentinel can back  up things and keep up with transports and aggressive troops a bit better.  I found that when I didn't put a heavy weapon in a squad in previous editions I was able to "unchain" myself mentally and be more aggressive and able to actually move the squad around.  It's a similar thing where I can move a Sentinel and not have a mental issue but a large squad of heavy weapons just seems like I get more leaving them still than moving them.  Rules wise it's the same, but something always felt different to me mentally.

[Gen.Steiner]

Ratlings will be interesting. They used to be excellent Wraithlord killers; now I think they'll be very good at character removal - or perhaps even special/heavy weapon removal!

[Withershadow]

The larger footprint is an advantage, because it creates a larger "no deep strike" bubble in your deployment zone.  Heavy weapon teams are just as mobile as Sentinels (while maintaining a 3-4x fold firepower advantage), more so when you consider they can go up in building levels and thus be immune to melee attacks from a lot of things.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Sentinels are significantly faster in terms of movement rate, and can operate independently of each other without having to maintain unit coherency or be as vulnerable to a charge by a lucky melee unit.  There's upsides to both, so it's really a pick the one that works for ya :)

[Gen.Steiner]

Why choose? Take both.

[dakkamasta]

Why choose? Take both.

 

This. They don't have the same roles in my opinion. HWTs bring big guns on the cheap but you really shouldn't be moving them, deploy them well and they should stay put for most of the game. Sentinels have speed on their side and most importantly, they can scout up 9" before the game starts to prevent any nasty alpha strike from your opponent's reserved units. If you deploy well and scout them up, you can completely push back enemy deep strikers out of effective range. I think this alone makes sentinels worth it since I think we all can agree that the worst thing for an IG army is a bunch of units breaking through our lines. On top of that the sentinels are good for tying up shooty units and they're better at it now due to being faster.

[NatBrannigan]

I've got a single Heavy Flamer toting Scout Sentinel to help fill out the Brigade Fast Attack slots on the cheap. 2 squads of 5 Rough Riders and that are surprisingly useful with Outflank / Scout. They may not kill much but they'll tie units up, grab objectives , deny deep strike as mentioned above and they're cheap!

 

I'd like a Hellhound at some point but for now, they are my slot fillers. Also, they're cheap, did I mention that!?

 

Those big Chainswords look mean but they hit like a wet fish don't they?

[Galron]

Scout sentinels are great for area denial. I wrote somewhere else they are perfect for extending the first turn no drop bubble allowing you to actually deploy up to your deployment zone. Not counting their bases in the math, 4 of them alone can scout move forward in a line and can protect 84" across the table at a minimum keeping DSing enemies 12" from your deployment zone even if they don't go the full distance on the scout move. My weapons teams fill the back field so I am not worried about there.

[Withershadow]

Sentinels are significantly faster in terms of movement rate, and can operate independently of each other without having to maintain unit coherency or be as vulnerable to a charge by a lucky melee unit. There's upsides to both, so it's really a pick the one that works for ya :)

6" vs 9" is not that significant.

 

You can buy a full heavy weapon squad for the cost of one sentinel, so your coherency argument is meaningless. The heavy weapon squad is way better at taking charges due to 3x the overwatch fire and more melee attacks.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not crapping on Scout Sentinels, which have a purpose preventing deep strikers and filling out fast attack for brigade command points, but Armoured Sentinels are a big lose in my opinion.

[Gen.Steiner]

I dunno about armoured Sentinels being a big lose. 5 points more isn't a great deal and it gets you access to a tougher vehicle that sits well with armoured and mechanised lists, as well as giving you things like plasma cannons or lascannons that can snipe and harass.

[Rob40k]

One thing to note on Sentinels is that moving them and firing heavy weapons means you're hitting on 5's which is not ideal! 

[NatBrannigan]

Yep, The Sentinel Is a mobile platform for something that doesn't want to move! This editions Schizophrenic unit. With a Heavy Flamer that's obviously not a problem but no way I'm putting a Lascannon or Plasma cannon on there.

 

I'd probably run Armoured Sents with Heavy Bolters at the moment, but that's not a very scary unit... It has to be the Scout with a Heavy Flamer for me at the moment.

 

Now a unit of Outflanking Armoured Sentinels? I'd be all over that.

[Gen.Steiner]

I think the fact that they're mobile is good; it enables you to get into cunning positions, create more access denial bubbles, and gives you in-game flexibility.

Multi-shot weapons are generally best for the Guard anyway, but I do love my armoured Sentinel with lascannon.

[Withershadow]

I dunno about armoured Sentinels being a big lose. 5 points more isn't a great deal and it gets you access to a tougher vehicle that sits well with armoured and mechanised lists, as well as giving you things like plasma cannons or lascannons that can snipe and harass.

5 points to lose their best rule.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think the big point on Armored Sentinels is they're not cover reliant.  A Heavy Weapons Team depends upon cover for survivability; they don't have the armor, toughness, or wounds otherwise.  A Scout Sentinel is a forward vanguard, an Armored Sentinel is a heavy weapon carrying unit that can be out in the open without negatively affecting its survivability.  A Weapons Team is a defensive anchor, designed to be deployed in cover and stay put and do nothing but put out firepower.  A Scout Sentinel is designed to be rapid moving ahead of your line, aggressively pushing the forward edge of your forces and setting up deep strike denial zones.  An Armored Sentinel moves with your line, sometimes staying put for a turn or two then leapfrogging again as the case may be, supporting other units with mobile firepower.

 

None is clearly superior to any other as they all have different roles.  It's really picking the one that works for you, your playstyle, and what your army needs.  A unit of Heavy Weapon Teams trying to do the job of an Armored Sentinel will just be picked out and shot; they're too big of a footprint to always find cover on the move and they lack any real staying power otherwise due to low armor and low toughness.  Likewise trying to just stand still behind a wall with a Sentinel will be points inefficient compared to a group of Weapons Teams.

[Withershadow]

Cover is a lot harder to get for vehicles than you expect. Walls and obscurement do nothing if you're not IN the terrain.

[Gen.Steiner]

But with use of cover you can reduce the amount of enemy units that can return fire.

[NatBrannigan]

I hate the new cover rules... How are Infantry firing through holes in a wall not in cover? Stand on the edge of a forest though and suddenly you're ok.

 

I'm going to rework all my terrain so it's actually useable. Hills are pretty pointless now since it doesn't matter how much of a model you can see. Walls don't do anything as far as I can tell since you can't be "in" a wall. Half a ruined building you might struggle to be classed as "in"... My rock formations I'm going to put onto big area bases to give them a clear boundary and turn them into a forest like thing, that I can work with.

[Gen.Steiner]

Just base everything, I guess. If you're on the base you're in cover. But I was thinking more of using terrain to completely block LOS.

[FallenSoldiers]

I hate the new cover rules... How are Infantry firing through holes in a wall not in cover? Stand on the edge of a forest though and suddenly you're ok.

 

I'm going to rework all my terrain so it's actually useable. Hills are pretty pointless now since it doesn't matter how much of a model you can see. Walls don't do anything as far as I can tell since you can't be "in" a wall. Half a ruined building you might struggle to be classed as "in"... My rock formations I'm going to put onto big area bases to give them a clear boundary and turn them into a forest like thing, that I can work with.

 Couldn't you call walls a "barricade"? Units within 1" of a barricade get cover!

[olcottr]

You could call the walls ruins. I don't think ruins have to be full buildings, do they?

[olcottr]

Did you know that Platoon Commanders are also Officers, and are Elite choices? I think your original multiple Command Squad list is still viable.