Unit of the Week: Primaris Marines

[Acebaur]

This week we're going to be discussing the new kids on the block, Primaris Marines!  Since they have only 3 units and while each one fills a different FOC, they have no options to speak of I'm rolling them in to one topic. (Plus we have a lot to cover!)

 

Anyway, how will you be running these new more durable marines in 8th? Do you like the fast hard hitting harassment units of the Inceptors? The crazy amounts of plasma fire put down by the Hellblasters? Or the simple durability and solid bolter of the Intercessors?  Since they all have to walk(unless you invest in a Thunderhawk!) What is you plan for getting them where they need to go? This isn't so much a problem for the Inceptors but the others will be on foot.  What units will you have them support?

 

 

 

Pleaste note: This is a TACTICS discussion, not a place to vent your opinions on whether you like them, want to buy them or think they are going to replace normal marines. Any off topic comments will be purged. Thank you. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Acebaur

[mathaius]

As of now, I only tried the Primaris Lieutenant and I can say it's a very solid choice when paired with a Captain or Chapter Master.

I had him tailgate a Land Raider Crusader, and being able to reroll 1s in both To Hit and To Wound rolls for 24+12 shots is huge.

In my opinion Intercessors aren't (yet) as good as Tacticals or Sternguard (both being cheaper than Intercessors, the latter having an even better bolter).

The Hellblasters would've been ace in a Drop Pod for a huge sucker punch, but with a 30" Plasma Gun they might be able to anchor a gunline.

People consider the Intercessors overpriced Assault Marines, but i think that being able to disgorge 6 Heavy Bolter shots each makes them worth their points. Also, they are most definitely NOT built for melee but for harassing enemy units from the 18" mark, using their mobility and the Jump keyword to avoid being tarpitted in melee.

The Gravis Captain sounds okay-ish i guess, i'd still prefer a Terminator suit so I can Deep Strike. T5 makes it slightly better against S<6 and S8-9 weapons than a standard captain, since those weapons (usually with low AP, like Lascannons or Missile Launchers) tend to neuter the benefits of 2+ armour vs 3+.

Edited July 5, 2017 by mathaius

[bolvar]

Far too limited by squad number of models, transports, wargear options and point cost compared to classic marines.

 

I mean, whatever role do you want to give them in battle, there is at least one non-primaris option that can do better

 

Intercessors: Want some bolter gunline? bring in tacticals, sternguard veterans or even deathwatch squads with their special ammo. Or something that can use hurricane bolters. Do you want those bolters because they have more range and -1 AP? That's what heavy bolters are for.

 

Inceptors: They cost the same that a attack bike with less wounds and worse movement. Yeah, they can get 2 short ranged heavy bolters. Attack bikes allow you to shoot almost the same at longer ranges, or shoot more against hordes because of their twin bolters, and don't forget that you can get a multi melta instead of a heavy bolter for monster/vehicle/some serious close range character hunting, moving 4" more per turn, guaranteed extra 6" on advance, and with twice amount of wounds. At least inceptors can deep strike and sometimes pop out a mortal wound but...

 

Hellblaster squads: 5 30" plasma rifles, each guy costing you 4 more points than a devastator with plasma CANNONS, which do d3 shots each at 6" more range, with a sergeant who has a signum and access to sergeant armory AND armorium cherubs.

 

 

No, they are not even an option in my book.

[Black Cohort]

Primaris Marine squads seem almost like eldar aspect warriors, each unit type specifically designed for one specific task. But space marines have a stat line for being generalists, and if anything Primaris marines should be geared towards close combat because of more base attacks but all their squads are shooting focused. And how often do you see most eldar aspects on the table?

[Kallas]

Intercessors seem really solid to me. For their cost they're way tougher than Sternguard and have better points-to-wounds than Tacticals. Further in the Sternguard comparison they have the same guns except for 1 AP, but cost basically the same with twice as many wounds - that seems like a winning trade for the Intercessors.

 

Not sold on Hellblasters or Investors, but Intercessors look to be in a solid place right now.

[Black Cohort]

Intercessors seem really solid to me. For their cost they're way tougher than Sternguard and have better points-to-wounds than Tacticals. Further in the Sternguard comparison they have the same guns except for 1 AP, but cost basically the same with twice as many wounds - that seems like a winning trade for the Intercessors.

 

Not sold on Hellblasters or Investors, but Intercessors look to be in a solid place right now.

Multiple wounds isn't as awesome as it used to be, there are lots of ways to get weapons that deal multiple wounds now.

[Prot]

I've tried all variants in multiple games.

 

The first observation I have is... they desperately need a vehicle.

 

Secondly the Intercessors are my least favorite. Just too inflexible and 2 wounds is okay, but I think cheap scouts or the more flexible Tacticals are superior for the points.

 

Inceptors. Super fun, very 'new' feeling and they fit in with the Dark Imperium novel well. On the table they play like they read... fast, hit hard, but very close to the danger and not strong in CC. I think they are over priced by about... 20 points a squad. At the end of the day they are deep striking heavy bolters. (Oddly enough the 2 player box set leaflet had them priced probably a little closer to what I think they should be at.)

 

Helblaster squad. Cool looking and and finally we have a truly potent unit when paired with a Captain. Once you overcharge these guys they can pay some bills for you, but slow as heck, and since we are talking -casualties- (and not wounds) on overheats, they  need to stay close to the Captain. 

[Schlitzaf]

I've been liking the Intercessors. Small Footprint. Troop. Reasonable Firepower (10 shots at 15. Is pretty solid). They work amazingly well in conjunction with mid-sized Crusader Squads. Acceptable durability for what you put in. And able to charge in and support. They are best used I have found as a midfield support unit. With "covering" Fire as 10 shots, 6-7 hits, 2-3 wounds can remove a wound from a Rhino Armored. If shoot Marines, that is 3-4 wounds so two dead. And Gaurd equivalent it is 3 dead. While a rapid Tactical of similar points (8 Man). 10-11 hit, 3-4 wounds. 1 Damage. Vs Marine. 5-6 Marines about the same dead. However for Gaurdsman 4 Dead, so 8 Tacticals > Intercessors their. However Intercessors have longer range, and rapid at 15 vs 12. 10 wounds to 8 wounds. 11 attacks to 10 attacks. And take a much smaller net footprint.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I am for sure, 110% buying Hellblasters after seeing how awesome their little sneak peak photo looks with the cables and bigger backpack disc. I was already going to get them since they add some pretty good firepower, but I wasn't really a fan of the models as they were just Intercessors with longer plasma guns and worse legs.

 

I also really like the HQ models but realistically only have room for one or two Lieutenants and my other HQ slot is filled by the Primaris Librarian for that helmet model and pysker access.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

Since I plan on lore-wise sticking these guys in my chapter armory, they're going to tend to be put in lists with lots of vehicles (even though they can't ride in them). Their main goal is going to be to hold objectives and form a bubble-wrap line around my techmarine so he doesn't die and make sure the tanks don't get mobbed.

 

The inceptors may see use elsewhere as well (as I had two fast attack slots total last edition and one is a flyer so I definitely have room in a force-org chart) as a vanguard for my Vanguard Veterans and Jump Pack chapter master (and maybe assault marines) Drop the inceptors in, drop the Vets in behind them, then drop the Shogun in behind them. Three or four heavy hitters to tie up the other guy's back line turn one to make an anvil, then the rest of the army deals a hammer blow to the other guy. Rock and a hard place.

 

I see them working well as solid 'hold until relieved' personnel in general and multiple inceptors squads as good anvils. The fact they have fly makes a turn 1 charge even better as they can get out and shoot again with their bolters.

[FirstSonofHorus]

Intercessors are fine. In cover they are incredibly durable and the extra 6" they have over normal bolters is a nice bonus. Normal tactical marines are better simply by virtue of special and/or heavy weapons. Sergeant weapon options alone could make a nice difference. Good objective holders but nothing to write home about.

 

Helblasters are simple and obviously great. Overcharging next to the Captain is brutal. They will be even better with transportation options.

 

Inceptors are nice but too expensive. Deep striking is a big advantage, as is being able to dance in and out of combat. One thing worth considering is that you do not have to deploy exactly on that 9" line. You don't really want to be charged. Dropping down, devastating a lightly armoured unit (IG heavy weapons teams are a good target!) and then charging a tank is a possible nice option, but against most armies you won't want to face the counter charge. Their main problems arise from the fact they have only 2 wounds and therefore deplete quickly. Also at 225 they are too much. 180 would be a good amount. Or 3 wounds per model would also help, because small arms fire can whittle them down easily. If the enemy devotes their heavy weapons to eliminating them, I'd consider it a victory but when small arms fire does it, it seems a waste.

 

Ancient - nice enough. The leadership boost has made no difference thus far, the death or glory attack is cool but is only on models within 6". Works nicely with the Helblasters, but at some point you just have your entire army solely existing to buff the Helblasters... Cheap though.

 

Lieutenants - very good! The reroll of 1s to wound is nice and with the power sword gives a CC punch not present elsewhere in the army (yet!). A must take. 

 

Captains - excellent. The buff is obviously excellent and being usable for all hits (CC and ranged) is a big plus. Mine has slaughtered lots of characters and vehicles. I will take mine in every game. Though the load out on the Dark Imperium boxset is wasteful - there is no need of a power sword; with retools of 1 to hit, the Boltstorm gauntlet's -1 to hit is just fine.

Edited July 7, 2017 by FirstSonofHorus

[old git]

The rules in Index 1 are somewhat underwhelming for me. 2W is ok but you're still only getting a 10W unit overall, same as a more flexible (at the moment) tactical squad. Hopefully the soon to be released codex will give us more options.

[Ishagu]

The Primaris Marines are basically 30K Marines - Each squad has a singular purpose.

 

I think the basic Intercessor is well costed, but as of now the units are limited by no transport options.

 

Will have to wait for the Codex release.

[Schlitzaf]

For those comparing Intercessors to Tacticals a 10 man Tactical is 130 pre-upgrades. A fairer comparison to Intercessors would he an 7-8 man tactical or 10 man Unpgraded Scout Squad. Which are more equivalent points wise. And rolewise tacticals are Tactical. Intercessors are mid field Fire support. To which within Vanilla Marine list, are the best for that Role. Considering they are also troops in comparison to the unit that shares that mission profile (Stern) and are elites.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I wouldn't compare any troop to 10 bolter Scouts because those are honestly the top choice for a default base troop. Only when you need other things, like non-Land Speeder transports, special weapons, etc do you look elsewhere, because those 10 bolter Scouts offer unparalleled performance for the points. They cost the least amount of points, only lose one armor save, and more importantly, have unique deployment abilities. They also even have their own options like sniper rifles and camo cloaks.

 

They're actually better than even Tactical Marines if you're not looking for firepower.

[General Strike]

I played my first game with Primaris today. I ran this list:

 

Captain in gravis

Lt

2x Intercessors

Contemptor Dread

Inceptor

Hellblasters

 

I fought:

 

Commissaf Yarrick

Command Tank w/ battle cannon, lascannon, heavy bolter sponsons

3x infantry squads w/ heavy weapon lascannons and plasma guns

Vendetta

Manticore

Culexus Assassin(I think that one)

 

He seized first turn, used his vendetta to wipe my first intercessor off the table, used his tank and heavy weapon las team to wipe my second squad, then killed a hellblaster in that squad. Then he Ds'd the assassin behind my hellblasters, got the charge and killed two more hellblasters. He ended up wiping me in turn 4.

Notes: They really need cover, the Intercessors were wiped, and the amount of multi damage weapons he brought made the advantage of more wounds per model useless. Now as typical for me, I failed about 80% of my rolls of every kind, but even so the dakka pumped out was brutal. We need that dread and tank. My contemptor and inceptor did work, killing the most stuff and being the last to die. I wish I had remembered the new fly keyword rules before I was down to one inceptor member though, but I wanted to see how they did with the hammer of wrath-lite. They really should be used more like fast gun platforms, throwing 6 heavy bolter shots per model, and use them to tie up stuff that cant hurt you for a turn then fly away and shoot them. The intercessors were my biggest disappointment, wiped completely before I could even use them. I think tranport will help, and if Reivers are troops I might want them instead. All in all, they can be good, but they are one third of an army right now.

 

I'm going to wait for the dex before buying anything else, causs I might want to use a different troops choice, even if it means it won't be pure primaris.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'm still in the process of assembling mine, so still theory-hammering, but the weakness of Intercessors as I see it is that there are many other sources in a Marine list for bolter fire. They may have a better bolter, but even in 8th edition that's still just a bolter.

 

Hellblasters, I like the concept and the models. 8th appears to be the age of plasma, and these guys bring a lot of it. That said, they'll probably become a priority for your opponent to erase, and with only ten wounds and a 3+ they won't have a hard time doing so.

 

Inceptors, I love the models. If they had missile racks they'd be my mental image of Heinlein's Starship Troopers Marines. That said, they are pricey for six wounds, even with toughness five. I see them as a competitor for attack bikes, not assault marines. I'd keep them 18 inches from a target and just keep shooting. If I want to deep strike 9 inches from the enemy I'll use Cataphractii and hope for a lucky 9.

[General Strike]

I agree, unless we get some major flexibility and price changes for Primaris, they don't hold up to regular marines as a stand alone. This is coming from someone who loves the Primaris range, I just think I NEED regular astartes to get the job done. Guilliman didn't have to fit his crusade into 2000 points.

[General Strike]

The Inceptors did crazy well for me, it's this weird balance with them, they shoot really well against infantry, even with only three models, and if you get caught in CC they still hit GEQ hard and MEQ weakly, but they are also harder to wound by anything not CC dedicated. In my match, I got them locked in combat with Yarrick and a full squad of guardsmen, I ignored the guardsmen for the majority and tried to kill yarrick, and all my deaths came from his claw. To be fair, I forgot about fly and should've fell back and heavy boltered the crap out of him.

 

I think a 5+ invuln across the board would fix the major issues with them, which is why I am hoping Iron Hands will have something like that this edition.

Edited July 10, 2017 by HCMistborn

[Schlitzaf]

I want to iterate something said by Mistborn. Don't play Primaris stand alone. They lack numbers and flexibility needed on the tabletop. Marines, have been about combined arms. Long gone are the days of MEQ striding across the battlefield solo'ing (if those days ever really even existed. They haven't sense I started in 4th).

 

Primaris, Intercessors are Fire Support. And should be compared more so to 8-10 Man unupgraded Tacticals or Scouts. Then anything else. Their job is to run alongside your heavy hitters and provide fire support. While they are just bolters, the smaller size, allows better use of cover. Which is what Primaris start showing. Use them where you need Bolter Support but a small Squad footprint.

 

I haven't used Hellblasters but I imagine they are similar in role to Gaurd Veterans or Scions. Medium or Heavy Armor Infantry to Light Tanks. Are their prime targets. Interceptors I have I ironically found best used as Character Hunters. Their high mobility and small footprint compared to Assault Squads allows them to far easier make characters the closest target.

 

Additionally they can switch to cutting up MEQ or GEQ but start suffering vs 2 Wound Models Squad, and Heavy Infantry. I think pure Primaris wouldn't work. Shouldn't work. Who here takes pure Terminator Lists or pure Bikes? Not say those lists cannot be strong but generally a hybrid list using elements of various marine units are stronger than pure lists. Primaris are the same way.

[General Strike]

I was looking at it, a better way to run Primaris might be with a spearhead and run hellblasters in place of intercessors.

[sultansean]

I ran 

 

Captain in gravis

2x Lt
2x Intercessors
Hellblasters

 

Dakka Pred

Land Raider 

Scout Snipers 

 

Against Eldar, with two units of 5 Dark Reapers. One unit of reapers wiped out the Hellblasters in cover on turn 1. They are amazing against Primaris, with their missile launchers doing 2 wounds base. I really found that the 2 wounds were often being negated by multi wound weapons. The -1 AP of the Primaries bolsters only ever really counteracted the cover their targets were in which was not enough to do much.

 

I don't if adding a heavy or special weapon to the squad would be enough to make them better than Tacticals. I was expecting the hellbalsters to do some heavy lifting with the Captain and LT in support but they never of that chance.     

[Deadnaughty]

I think a unit of intercessors to hold a backfield objective in a more varied Marine list can be good. cheap 10 wounds and the extra range lets them have some more impact then normal bolter tacticals would.

Other then that I agree that Primaris on their own are not very good. Hellblasters are the only real workhorse units so they just get focussed and killed right away.

[Jackalwolf]

They will have plenty more options soon. Otherwise this looks pretty fab:

 

• 2-4 intercessor squads holding objectives
• 2 reiver squads deepstriking and stunning units
• 2 inceptor squads killing the stunned units
• Agressors in a Repulsor with the Dreadnought doing the heavy lifting against the main enemy CC threat

 

And that's with their current outlook. I'm sure they'll have more equipment options when the codex is here.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

So I actually decided to build a proper army for 8E and I noticed my list was like 2200...before adding the Primaris units I want. Hellblasters and such cost 200 a squad! How are you guys fitting them in your old armies? What are you cutting? Things like Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders have jumped in price by a lot (and justifiably so) so finding room is hard.