Unit of the Week: Dreadnoughts

[Lemondish]

That's if you're into Forge World ;)

I'll echo this sentiment. With how broken their rules are in 8th, nobody wants to play against them in my area. I'll have to stick to the Codex for my Dreadnought options, including staying away from the Mortis.

[Ishagu]

Thing is, Forgeworld aren't broken.

Certain units are overpowered, but the most powerful armies in the game feature no Forgeworld units.

 

Going back to topic, has anyone been using the Deredeo?

 

I feel it's a very well priced and accurate gun platform. The Anvillus Autocannon is great, especially with the impressive BS of 2+

The Ailos Missiles and Heavy Bolters assist with Hordes.

[Timur]

I'm sorry but forgeworld rules are flat out better than "standard" 40k datasheets.  You do pay more for the equipment, but the increase in lethality is worth it.

 

Someone will surely point out the random FW unit that is kinda derpy and overpriced, but that fails to debunk the fact that FW units in aggregate, preform better.  They have for years.  How would they sell expensive models and make money if it were just collectors buying?

 

I would love to use the contemptor mortis, leviathan, or relic contemptor but the fact is a lot of ppl. don't like playing FW in ad hoc games, and many tournaments big and small don't allow it.  (Full disclosure: I don't print money.  If I did I would buy them to stare at and play when I was allowed).

 

This should be telling: I played small local Storelord tournament last week.   Since the edition just started, proxing was allowed within reason (had to be models, no shoeboxes or tonka trucks).  So there were FW models being used to proxy "reg" 40k units, but FW rules were not allowed.

[Ishagu]

It's not up to players at pick up games to ban Forgeworld.

The rules are officially published by Games Workshop and available to everyone readily.

[Prot]

Guys, personal feelings on FW aside, how would you stack the Chaplain Dread against a HOG wielding Redemptor?

[Lemondish]

It's not up to players at pick up games to ban Forgeworld.

The rules are officially published by Games Workshop and available to everyone readily.

Well, it is up to them. Who publishes it is irrelevant. The rules are broken and overpowered for a lot of units, and because you can cherry pick them, it makes it extremely easy for entire gaming groups and local tournaments to ban them. It's doubly easy to do when they don't even sell the models in GW stores.

 

FW looks and acts like a separate third party entity, and that means they'll always carry that stigma. What actually ruins it is the imbalanced rules and errors that still haven't been resolved.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Lemondish

[Ishagu]

If I present an official book published by a division of Games Workshop with rules for various units, and put said units on the table, players don't have a leg to stand on to refuse to play them. Player opinion does not override official rules.

 

Of course in a tournament the TO can impose different rules and limitations.

 

Going back to Dreadnoughts, I run my Chaplain Dread with a Twin Lascannon and Storm Bolter, and a CC weapon. He's strictly anti Tank/monster in his firepower. Because of the good bs and WS he's very reliable even without re-roll auras.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If I present an official book published by a division of Games Workshop with rules for various units, and put said units on the table, players don't have a leg to stand on to refuse to play them. Player opinion does not override official rules.

 

 

 

Ummmm, a player has every right in any game and in any situation to decline to play a game.  You can't force them to play against you.  If someone doesn't want play against Forge World units, that is their right as a gamer, pure and simple.

[Captain Idaho]

Way I sees it, if FW was so balanced, we wouldn't get folk telling us the best units by a mile are FW units, eh.

 

Regardless, there is a player divide. If you want the best Dreadnought, get a Chaplain Dreadnought or Leviathan. If you want to use Codex only, use a Contemptor.

 

Simples.

[Ishagu]

I'm a big fan of the Redemptor actually. Yes, he's not accurate unfortunately so he needs aura support.

 

I think he might actually be best with Blood or Dark Angels. A Libby Dread moving behind one could cast an invul save on the Redemptor as it advanced.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Ishagu

[Firepower]

I'm not seeing the major appeal of the Chaplain Dread (much to my...dread).  The HQ character bit is kinda nifty, but it costs a lot, the re-roll 'aura' is only for units fighting the same thing in melee, and doesn't seem especially durable if he does get caught with his big metal bum in someone's cross hairs.  Soooo, what am I missing?

[Captain Idaho]

Honestly; I don't think buying a unit just because you need a character to make it work is a solid way to play 40K. The obvious way to play is just clump around characters and gunline/march slowly and hope you best the opponent's version of that.

 

I'm pushing a separate version of playing, one I believe is actually superior. Don't clump. Use movement and tactical placement to defeat those slow moving, ungainly clumps of armies.

 

The Redemptor is a clumping unit. It requires at least a Captain to be worth while, boosting its cost by a minimum of 74pts and crucial command points.

[Timur]

I've come to the same conclusion Mr. Idaho, sir. (Are you a Ginaz swordmaster?).  After fooling around with Redemptors (proxied), I like the dakka (a lot), but it's stat line does require some babysitting.  I've surprisingly come back to venerable versions of my old school ML/LC and rifleman dreads.  Moving or not, they tend to hit a lot more shots and I'm a bigger fan of reliable damage over streaky damage. 

 

I know there are dice involved, but I can make my output more reliable with choice of weapon/platform.

 

The bubble gunline style of play usually gives up board control, with the damage output suffering greatly on units caught out of the bubble.  More bubble bearers can be taken at the expense of more units/upgrades.

 

I do use a captain, but he is mobile (bike), and is there to back up whatever unit/units need a boost, instead of herding my units around.

 

Playing IH CTs so keep that in mind.  I understand UMs have been designed to use a bubble system, but the UMs I've faced have literally backed themselves into corners playing that retreating and shooting herd style.  The edition's new, ppl. will surely figure out how make a more fluid and mobile bubble army eventually.

 

*Contemptor for God Emperor 40,041*

 

-the peoples emperor.

 

-Kheres games!!!

[Captain Idaho]

It's quite funny actually because I've noticed the trend of some Ultramarines players clumping around a character bubble but I'm trying to buck that trend with more independent units and careful use of strategums. Hell, Ultramarines are strongest with this in mind as they have the Scions of Guilliman Strategum.

[Timur]

Regarding the redemptor, I'm becoming confused as to its role.  I understand its a dakka platform, but its immobile more or less w/ giant plasma.  The gatling cannon type can at least cover the low BS w/ rate of fire.

 

It's CC is fine.  Streaky though.  More of a def. asset than an offensive like the ironclad or contemptor.  Even a venerable equipped for CC is better for that role.

 

So if it's just gunna stand there and cost 200pts, why not just get a pred., or a landraider, etc?

[Captain Idaho]

Exactly it's problem. Sure it has counter attack potential but this edition is about attacking and divide and conquer for Space Marines though the problem is most people haven't caught on yet. People still want to count the guns and hang around their characters.

[TheDecay]

I've actually had amazing success using a "Dread-star" with the Deredeo, 2 Redemptors and a Chapter Master following close to give reroll 1's and 2's for the Redemptors.
Even on the move they are super accurate.
I've skipped the missiles on the Deredeo and taken the Automantic Pavais for the 5++ bubble.

Making the Redemptors more accurate and more tanky is insane value and pushes their usefulness far passed any of the other Dreads I've tried.

The list I'm using with them is 3-0 against some other pretty tough stuff.

[Ishagu]

I wish I hadn't glued the missiles onto my Deredeo. They're a lot less impressive in 8th, and the invul bubble is more beneficial now that vehicles are more durable.

[Ebon Hand]

I'm not seeing the major appeal of the Chaplain Dread (much to my...dread). The HQ character bit is kinda nifty, but it costs a lot, the re-roll 'aura' is only for units fighting the same thing in melee, and doesn't seem especially durable if he does get caught with his big metal bum in someone's cross hairs. Soooo, what am I missing?

The Chaplain Dreadnought buffs strength, not rerolls, and +1 strength is a magic number for a lot of SM units. You start to wound other T4 on a 3, your power axes start to wound Plague Marines and Bikes on a 3, and your power fists and thunderhammers start to would T8 stuff on a 3. If you stack it with Helbrecht and/or a Lieutenant, all your infantry suddenly hit like trucks in melee.

 

The Chaplain Dread isn't SUPER resilient as he's still T7, but he's a venerable Dreadnought with a 5+ inv, the 6+ die hard save and character status. At the least that character status can shield him from a lot of anti taco fire out there.

 

He's also got venerable stats, so a twin lascannon firing at 3+ to hit on the move is pretty nice. Finally, he's a Dreadnought, so the Wisdom of the Ancients can turn him into a temporary Captain to bug your units further.

 

I can't say how good he is as I haven't used him yet but I want to try him out with my Black Templars for sure.

[Ishagu]

I can tell you that he's exceptional :-)

 

I used him at a tournament and he performed very well. Being a character shielded him from many alpha Strikes and he was able to deal steady damage throughout each game - in fact he was never destroyed!

[Captain Idaho]

The character key word is amazing.

[Frater Cornelius]

The character key word is amazing.

 

Or increadibly broken, depending on the list your play *coughculexusspamcough*

[Ebon Hand]

Which do you think is a better monster hunter, a Venerable Dread, Ironclad or a Relic Contemptor?

 

The Relic Contemptor is obviously better overall of course, but it's also more expensive. The thing that really attracts me is the high movement, especially as a Black Templar player. I'm torn though because I also see the value in being cheaper, and I haven't had issues getting Dreadnoughts into cqc even with the normal 6 inch move, I just end up having to deploy them forward or use them to counter charge.

[Timur]

Regular Contemptor from the codex is cheap.  Has a great statline including a 3+5++.  Hits @ S14. Nobody can complain about FW, cause it's Codex.

 

Should bop a monster to death or I dunno what will.

 

2. Ironclad w/ CF (TH fist can work but is streakier in dmg.)

 

3. Ven Dread (w/ a CC arm.)

 

4. All of the Lascannons.  Maybe this is #1, but it's not as fun as crashing into a monster w/ a dreadnought.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes I'm feeling the Contemptor. Hitting on a 2+ and wounding on a 2+, with that juicy movement 9", should cause some grief.