Chapter Focus: The Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Black T

[Ciler]

How would you use the relic though ?

• On a Marshall : reroll 1s to hit
• On a High Marshal : reroll all failed rolls to hit (using the 3CP stratagem to bump up a captain)
• On a chaplain : reroll all failed rolls to hit in CC + Ld bubble 
• On a Castellan : reroll 1s to wound ?

[redmapa]

I would use it on a Castellan, rerolling 1s to wound is nice and rerolling 1s is much easier to get specially if you use Dreadnoughts as you can turn them into beacons to reroll 1s to hit within 6'' of it with a 1CP stratagem.

 

Now a Castellan is cheaper so you could just get two and save the relic for your 'High Marshall'. I dont think theres a wrong choice, it just depends on the rest of your army.

[Acebaur]

<p>

 

How would you use the relic though ?

• On a Marshall : reroll 1s to hit
• On a High Marshal : reroll all failed rolls to hit (using the 3CP stratagem to bump up a captain)
• On a chaplain : reroll all failed rolls to hit in CC + Ld bubble
• On a Castellan : reroll 1s to wound ?

I think it depends on what characters you are running. Like if you are taking Helbrecht a chaplain and the castellan I'd probably put it on the castellan.

[Kisada]

Also the new lieutenant is an option for that re-roll wound aura

[Banjulhu]

The relic to my mind is sort of a waste due to the current auras working on units with models in range meaning generally the extra range on the aura is likely only going to cover more models of units that were already benefitting from a characters aura and possibly cover one extra unit at best most of the time

 

Realistically what it mostly gives you is a bit more space to work with positioning wise but is that little extra room really worth it?

 

The model I would personally be more inclined to use the helm on if possible is a Chapter Ancient as one of his auras works on individual models and so has it's stock massively improved by the extra range

[redmapa]

Its a free relic, I think its worth it if you want to run your own custom High Marshall or a Lieutenant, 9'' aura rerolling 1s to wound is pretty damn good in my experience as you can easily cover 2-3 units, maybe more, with one model.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

But our's relic is taken for free with. O point's cost.... because you Beger psy for helmet:).

 

Ninjed:)

Edited July 24, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Banjulhu]

Its a free relic, I think its worth it if you want to run your own custom High Marshall or a Lieutenant, 9'' aura rerolling 1s to wound is pretty damn good in my experience as you can easily cover 2-3 units, maybe more, with one model.

 

You should be able to do 2 units with just a standard 12" diameter circle.

 

And yes it is free but takes up the one relic slot which I would be more inclined to use on the shield eternal.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Banjulhu

[Medjugorje]

If you want to go into close combat - then take a Chaplain

If you want better shooting - then may take the Captain and 3CP into a High Marshall.

 

But i am not sure if Helbrecht maybe better because of the 3 CP - and if you go with Assault-Terminators or Crusaders in a Land Raider,... always prefer Helbrecht.

[Lysere]

To me the helmet is best on Chaplains, Ancients, or whichever aura you have the least of.

 

The chaplain is most because he has two things, reroll hits in combat and the leadership bubble, ancients as mentioned have an aura that works on models as well as having two parts to theirs. Otherwise it's a matter of do I have more people with reroll hit auras or reroll wound auras, whichever I have less I'd take the helmet on them if I was using it.

 

Of course many of the other relics are quite good as well but I have a feeling I'll be taking 2-3 relics in most games anyway.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I think I'll be saving some CP's instead for additional rerolls in terms of charging, shooting or just those necessary saves that could turn the tide of the battle... I feel that if I use too much CP before the battle has begun I won't have enough when I really need it...

[Brother Christopher]

I remember reading a post about (our?) trait of some kind, which allows to restore a CP on a roll of 5+. Is this a thing (that we have access to) or did I just make this up?

 

Emperah! I really need the book to sort my project priorities right and build/paint a list of some sort!!

[Medjugorje]

I think I'll be saving some CP's instead for additional rerolls in terms of charging, shooting or just those necessary saves that could turn the tide of the battle... I feel that if I use too much CP before the battle has begun I won't have enough when I really need it...

 

with minimal Crusadersquads we have enough Options to get enough CP

 

 

Imperium: Battalion Detachment - 923 Punkte

 

**************  2 HQ  *************** 

Captain

+ - Combi-melta

   - Thunder hammer - - - > 118 Punkte

 

Lieutnant

+ - Bolt pistol

   - Power axe- - - > 79 Punkte

***************  3 Standard  *************** 

Crusader Squad

5 Initiates - 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol- Meltagun- Lascannon

+ Sword Brother

   - 1 x Bolt pistol - 1 x Combi-melta - - - > 126 Punkte

 

Crusader Squad

5 Initiates - 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol- Meltagun- Lascannon

+ Sword Brother

   - 1 x Bolt pistol - 1 x Combi-melta - - - > 126 Punkte

 

Crusader Squad

5 Initiates - 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol- Meltagun- Lascannon

+ Sword Brother

   - 1 x Bolt pistol - 1 x Combi-melta - - - > 126 Punkte

 

***************  1 Elite  *************** 

Honour Guard

- 2 x Power axe- - - > 52 Punkte

***************  3 Transporter  *************** 

Rhino

- Hunter-killer missile

- Storm bolter- - - > 80 Punkte

 

Razorback

- Twin assault cannon

- Hunter-killer missile

- Storm bolter- - - > 108 Punkte

 

Razorback

- Twin assault cannon

- Hunter-killer missile

- Storm bolter - - - > 108 Punkte

 

 

Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 923

Kommandopunkte der Armee : 6

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Medjugorje

[redmapa]

I remember reading a post about (our?) trait of some kind, which allows to restore a CP on a roll of 5+. Is this a thing (that we have access to) or did I just make this up?

 

Emperah! I really need the book to sort my project priorities right and build/paint a list of some sort!!

 

Thats the Ultramarine warlord trait.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

I think I'll be saving some CP's instead for additional rerolls in terms of charging, shooting or just those necessary saves that could turn the tide of the battle... I feel that if I use too much CP before the battle has begun I won't have enough when I really need it...

 

with minimal Crusadersquads we have enough Options to get enough CP

 

Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 923

Kommandopunkte der Armee : 6

 

 

 

-3 Command Points if Chapter Master, -1 point if multiple Relics...

 

2 Command Points left-over... leaving either 1 Orbital Bombardment or 2 chances to deny the witch...

 

Or not upgrade any and have 6 the entire game, but not have rerolls to Hit and Wound nor multiple relics... atleast we aren't Ravenguard which could use 1 per unit to Infiltrate, laving the army without CP even before the game starts...

Edited July 24, 2017 by Marshal_Roujakis

[Medjugorje]

 

 

I think I'll be saving some CP's instead for additional rerolls in terms of charging, shooting or just those necessary saves that could turn the tide of the battle... I feel that if I use too much CP before the battle has begun I won't have enough when I really need it...

 

with minimal Crusadersquads we have enough Options to get enough CP

 

Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 923

Kommandopunkte der Armee : 6

 

 

 

-3 Command Points if Chapter Master, -1 point if multiple Relics...

 

2 Command Points left-over... leaving either 1 Orbital Bombardment or 2 chances to deny the witch...

 

Or not upgrade any and have 6 the entire game, but not have rerolls to Hit and Wound nor multiple relics... atleast we aren't Ravenguard which could use 1 per unit to Infiltrate, laving the army without CP even before the game starts...

 

its just the basic of the army... we have good chars and good units were we can put some CP again in listbuilding... but you are wright,  I am not sure if we need that one because Helbrecht is very good

[Lysere]

If you don't need your warlord to be in the thick of it I honestly think the Damocles rhino is worth it. Just tried one out and the two extra command points I got helped win a game I probably should've lost.

[Banjulhu]

Oddly enough I could see the relic working best for an not very Tempar-like shooting heavy list. An Lieutentent with his buffed aura sitting between lots of small footprint hight output units such a centurions min dev squads with one or two pred tanks sitting just behind fireing over their heads.

 

You would possibly need some chaff which could be a few of drop podded crusader squads, at which point the merits or lack there of in the chapter tactic becomes moot as getting into melee would be a bonus rather than the goal even for the chaff

[SydonianDragoon404]

I believe the Captain/Castellan buff to be the best choice here over the Lieutenant. You have to hit them before you can try to wound them.

[Lysere]

I believe the Captain/Castellan buff to be the best choice here over the Lieutenant. You have to hit them before you can try to wound them.

Statictially rerolling a one has the same effect regardless of whether it's hits or wounds, in our case it's not as much of a choice as Imperial guard since they have to pick an order while we can get both anyway. I do agree that overall the hits would be better since we fail on ones and twos most of the time for hits while wounds are all over the place.

[balordazul]

I'm planing on using Helbrecht because he is really good even with the locked warlord trait.  EC and Castellan (Lieutenant) with the helm.  Add a vet squad with them so you can use combi-weapons and melee weapons to max effect.  

 

Also don't forget this combo now re-rolls to hit and wound rolls of a one for your transport as well.  Your LRC is even better now until the enemy chain locks it down in combat.  

 

Looking at some revised numbers and I hope some people might find this helpful.  This is taking into account the re-roll to hit, +1S and the re-roll of 1 to wound.  I'm doing it vs unit class, by weapon grouping (power weapons/ LC / -1 to hit weapons) I included LC but would not recommend them as the bonus to re-roll 1's do not work with them.  

 

I'm highlighting in red the best weapons per points via the index for quick reference.  

 

Vs MEQ

Power Sword (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 58% to do a wound

Power Axe (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 51% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 34% to do a wound

Relic Blade (honor guard) (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 58% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Siege Drill (88%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 85% to do 3 damage to a single model 

 

Lightning Claw (88%) -> To wound (83%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 55% to do a wound

 

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (75%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 63% to do damage

Eviscerator (75%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 73% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (75%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 73% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

 

Vs T3 w/5+ save

Power Sword (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigated = 68% to do a wound

Power Axe (88%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 85% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (88%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor medication 6+ (-16%) = 74% to do a wound

Relic Blade (honor guard) (88%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 85% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Siege Drill (88%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 85% to do 3 damage to a single model 

 

Lightning Claw (88%) -> To wound (83%) -> Armor mitigated = 73% to do a wound

 

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (75%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 73% to do damage

Eviscerator (75%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 73% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (75%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 73% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

Vs T5 w/3+ save

Power Sword (88%) -> To wound (50%+8%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 44% to do a wound

Power Axe (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 51% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 34% to do a wound

Relic Blade (honor guard) (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 58% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Siege Drill (88%) -> To wound (83%+14%) -> Armor mitigated = 85% to do 3 damage to a single model 

 

Lightning Claw (88%) -> To wound (75%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 52% to do a wound

 

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (75%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 50% to do damage

Eviscerator (75%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigated = 58% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (75%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigated = 58% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

Vs T8 w/3+ save

Power Sword (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 29% to do a wound

Power Axe (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 25% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 17% to do a wound

Relic Blade (honor guard) (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 29% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Siege Drill (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigated = 68% to do 3 damage to a single model 

 

Lightning Claw (88%) -> To wound (55%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 36% to do a wound

 

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (75%) -> To wound (50%+8%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 37.5% to do damage

Eviscerator (75%) -> To wound (50%+8%) -> Armor mitigated = 43.5% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (75%) -> To wound (50%+8%) -> Armor mitigated = 43.5% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

Vs T8 w/2+ save (land raider)

Power Sword (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation  5+ (-33%) = 25% to do a wound

Power Axe (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 17% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation 3+ (-66%) = 20% to do a wound

Relic Blade (honor guard) (88%) -> To wound (33%+5%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 25% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Siege Drill (88%) -> To wound (66%+11%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 58% to do 3 damage to a single model 

 

Lightning Claw (88%) -> To wound (55%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 24% to do a wound

 

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (75%) -> To wound (50%+8%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 33% to do damage

Eviscerator (75%) -> To wound (50%+8%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 37.5% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (75%) -> To wound (50%+8%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 37.5% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

 

My conclusion is based on weapon costs not changing as I have not seen the data on melee weapon point costs yet. 

The power sword, power axe and thunder hammer are the best bang for your points on consistent damage.  With chain fists being a good upgrade over a PF when thunder hammers are not available.  

 

Power Maul and Power lance are at the bottom of the lot as the sword and axe just outshines them.  

 

The Eviscerator and Relic Blade are not showing bad results but both of them being at a higher cost than a Thunderhammer they are an auto exclude.  

 

LC does not work with the secondary re-roll and for the point cost I do not feel that this weapon competes.  

 

Lastly the Siege Drill is the standout top dog on raw data but comes with a huge price tag bing on assault centurions.  This includes getting these guys across the table.  At least they can provide great short ranged fire support and high quality of melee attacks.  I'm not sure that is enough to see them on the table over adding more boots on the ground.  Plus I think they went up a few points as they seem to be listed now as 80 something.  

[Ciler]

One point to note, remember that rerolls apply before modifiers (see designer comments). This is a problem for heavy weapons after moving and things like power fists.

 

The problem is as follows, your marine has a BS/WS of 3+, you roll a 3 which is a success so you don't get a reroll, then the modifier (-1) applies and your result becomes a 2, meaning a fail which you can't reroll.

[balordazul]

That is messy and clunky.  Good eye on the goofy choice of wording they chose to use.  

[Marshal Mattias]

That's a really dumb bit of game design... like how you roll a 6 to hit with a power fist, but then have to modify it to a 5 before gaining Grim's extra attack, thereby limiting it arbitrarily.

It's just weird to make the rules so clumsy when they went to such efforts to streamline other things!

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I think it's not clumsy, i actually think it's well done. You pay through the nose for most models that get hit modifiers (think Eldar Rangers) and the opponent simply gimps that investment by bringing a few reroll characters. Reroll 1s would be even better if modifiers applied before. I however concur, that rules like Grimaldus' should apply to a roll of a "natural" 6, so even if it gets modified to a 5 you get bonus attacks (which in turn get the -1 hit modifier anyways...).

Also: Can we pick a relic on Helbrecht? I thought it wasn't allowed on named characters that already bring one (and the sword of High Marshals most certainly is a relic).