Chapter Focus: The Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Black T

[redmapa]

Isnt Grimaldus' bonus attacks on a natural  6s? The way I understand is that a 6+ is the ammount you should get when applying modifiers and 6s is what the dice rolled, I believe Overwatch works this way in that there no modifiers applicable as it works on 6s rather than 6+. I could be wrong and I agree its a bit clunky.

[Slackmaster]

 

LC does not work with the secondary re-roll and for the point cost I do not feel that this weapon competes.  

 

 

That's some pretty awesome analysis, thanks for doing the hard work! :) I'm curious though with regard to your opinion of Lightning Claws. Did you factor in the additional attack with a second claw? To me it seemed like a reasonable way to get a +1A power weapon with re-roll to wound, and I'm seriously thinking of putting them on Sword Brethren in squads.

[Ciler]

 

Also: Can we pick a relic on Helbrecht? I thought it wasn't allowed on named characters that already bring one (and the sword of High Marshals most certainly is a relic).

No. The codex explicitely states that named characters cannot have relics (the "in-game" rationale being that they usually already have one anyway).

[balordazul]

 

 

LC does not work with the secondary re-roll and for the point cost I do not feel that this weapon competes.  

 

 

That's some pretty awesome analysis, thanks for doing the hard work! I'm curious though with regard to your opinion of Lightning Claws. Did you factor in the additional attack with a second claw? To me it seemed like a reasonable way to get a +1A power weapon with re-roll to wound, and I'm seriously thinking of putting them on Sword Brethren in squads.

 

 

No I was looking at it via a single claw and this was independent of number of attacks.  Double claws do up your attack but also removes the model from having a pistol or a combi-weapon.  The major issue I find with lightning claws is the point cost as you get get two models a power sword or axe for the same cost.  Alternately a Thunderhammer out preforms many weapons because of the static 3 damage.  

 

Now this was all dealing with re-rolls, +1S and re-roll 1 to wound. 

 

Here is a look at LC without those buffs.  Keep in mind that for a single LC that is two cheaper power weapons and you need to work out what you fight against most.  Orks and Nid swarm a LC is not bad as it does not need to be concerned about strong armor saves.  I think the issue for pointing when it comes to them if they were 7 points for a single LC they would be much more appealing over a sword.  

 

I need to workout a formal of % success to point cost but my baby is being super needy right now.  

 

Vs MEQ

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 28% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 33% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 29% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (75%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 37% to do a wound

 

Vs T3 w/5+ save

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigated = 44% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigated = 44% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor medication 6+ (-16%) = 48% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (88%) -> Armor mitigated = 58% to do a wound

 

Vs T5 w/3+ save

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 19% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 25% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 29% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (55%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 27% to do a wound

 

Vs T8 w/3+ save

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (16%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 9% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 16% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 14.52% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (29%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 14% to do a wound

 

Vs T8 w/2+ save (land raider)

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (16%) -> Armor mitigation  5+ (-33%) = 8% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 14.5% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 3+ (-66%) = 13% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (29%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 13% to do a wound

Edited July 25, 2017 by balordazul

[Firepower]

Really annoyed to see where mauls land in those statistics.

[Lysere]

Isnt Grimaldus' bonus attacks on a natural 6s? The way I understand is that a 6+ is the ammount you should get when applying modifiers and 6s is what the dice rolled, I believe Overwatch works this way in that there no modifiers applicable as it works on 6s rather than 6+. I could be wrong and I agree its a bit clunky.

Unless it explicitly says it's not affected by modifiers it is, so no Grims bonus is affected by modifiers. On the flip side if we had a +1 to hit it'd trigger on a 5 or 6.

[Ebon Hand]

Mauls have been serving me well. One of my Sword Brothers has killed a Broodlord, the Visarch, and a few Wraithguard, statistics be damned.

 

I think it's just that with high strength being their boon, Mauls don't benefit from rerolls as much as weapons with more armor pierce since you can never make your opponent reroll his save so it's better to pierce it if you have the rerolls.

 

This is why my Maul Sword Brother rolls with my objective securing Crusaders with bolters and heavy weapons. They are often out of reroll range except when my Reclusiarch on Bike roars nearby.

 

Take note though... If the opponent has invulnerable saves (like the Broodlord for example) armor pierce can only do so much and a Maul will end up being preferable.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[Banjulhu]

Really annoyed to see where mauls land in those statistics.

 

When they spoiled the stats of the three basic power weapons during the build up to 8th I figured they thought that mauls would be a go to weapon when fighting guard equivalents without really considering that everything that can reliably land punch is a go to weapon for killing guardsmen and that anything on top is more or less a bonus. A cost reduction could help make it more attractive but that is a hard thing to do given the current cost of special combat weapons.

[Kastor Krieg]

Crozius the best vs Plague Marines? So noted.

[Ebon Hand]

Remember, the Crozius has different than a Maul now. +1 Str instead of +2, but 2 damage instead of 1.

 

It's better against multi wound models.

[Firepower]

That's...hm.  Not sure how to feel about that really.

[Marshal Mattias]

I feel strongly that it should have been +2str and 2 dmg, making it a slightly more deadly version of the maul, as befits a living embodiment of the Emperor's wrath.

 

But what do I know... ;)

[Ebon Hand]

Chaplains are only 72 points man. For that price, S5 -1AP 2 dam with rerolls to hit is pretty good. He hits like 1.00 calibre heavy bolter round except with twice the severity of the wound.

 

I've been using multiple Chaplains in every list since 8th edition and they haven't disappointed me yet. Let's not get greedy :D

[Banjulhu]

If I have my head around the weapon profiles and our special character buffs Helbrecht passing out +1 str benefits power sword users and lightning claw users in the typically marine heavy meta because a jump from S4 to S5 boosts the to wound roll in most cases from a 4+ to a 3+. Grimaldus is good for everyone but particularly paired lightning claws because more melee attacks means more chances of bonus attacks

[Ciler]

Isnt Grimaldus' bonus attacks on a natural  6s? The way I understand is that a 6+ is the ammount you should get when applying modifiers and 6s is what the dice rolled, I believe Overwatch works this way in that there no modifiers applicable as it works on 6s rather than 6+. I could be wrong and I agree its a bit clunky.

I've asked on facebook explicitely.

[Medjugorje]

Remember, the Crozius has different than a Maul now. +1 Str instead of +2, but 2 damage instead of 1.

 

It's better against multi wound models.

 

but better against models with fnp-rule.

[Ebon Hand]

The 'fnp' type rule happens when they take wounds, so if an attack does 2 damage and they have Iron Hands tactic for example, they would take their 6+++ save vs each wound they suffered.

 

If they have the tenacious survivor Warlord trait as well, they would get to use that 6+++ save as well, so that would mean two 6+++ saves against every wound suffered.

 

A crozius is definitely more likely to put down one wound models with fnp type saves like Plague Marines, but is even better against stuff with lower saves or invulnerable saves plus fnp, like Genestealers with catalyst or Dark Eldar. Chaplains love to kill xenos.

[Banjulhu]

A Chapies' Crozius may also prove to be a boon against the 2W Primaris marines we are likely going to see lots of.

[balordazul]

Hmmmm assault centurions dropped 20 points.