Chaos codex release date 8/5/17

[Gordon Shumway]

The FW 1.1 update added the Helbrute keyword to contemptors, Doritos and Levi's.

[Sception]

I have to say, this preview was fantastic, and only increases my eager anticipation for this book.

[Archaeinox]

It was a lot more detail than the CSM stuff for the Index lmao

[Khornestar]

Lulz, the rumor stew thickens:

 

 

Berzerkers against Armies of the Imperium would be absolute insanity.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Juggernut

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I have to say, this preview was fantastic, and only increases my eager anticipation for this book.

 

Since Black Legion are supposed to focus a fair amount on Chosen, the "Rapid Fire = Assault" thing is pretty awesome. Imagine a unit of Chosen dismounting from a Rhino, rolling up and advancing to fire both parts of their Combi-Flamers.....with Sorcerer/Lord/Abaddon support offsetting the penalties.

 

BL Terminators Advancing forward and unleashing hell in a similar fashion is going to be nasty too. Esp with a little help from Warptime. 

 

Large squads of Bikers w/Turbo Boost for removing horde infantry.

 

Plasma Raptors, anyone?

 

Then there's the idea of Advancing Rhinos laying down fire with multiple Combi-bolters. Or....ye gods.....Black Legion Rubricae from the Sons of the Cyclops.

 

Finally....+1LD? That means Termies with an IoV have LD 11. You gotta kill 6 guys and roll a 6 for them to care. Makes 10 man Undivided squads much more viable.....or allows marked squads to not worry about giving something up by having to take a different Icon.

 

As for Word Bearers rerolling morale......Cultists, baby. Put a Dark Apostle near multiple units and they have LD9, rerolling. Also makes Horde CSM units viable with Icon of Vengeance.

 

Night Lords = Yessssss. People will need to pack morale mitigation characters and they should be OK until they lose them. Stratagems will help too, so I don't think it's OP. A kick in the teeth, yes, but not broken IMO.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Looks like EC are going to be great this edition, good mix of a viable alternative cc army to bezerkers or a more shooting focused sonic weapons army. Can't wait for the codex, August 12th can come soon enough.

[Panzer]

Bloody hell that turned out better than I expected! FnP Psychic Power and a Stratagem that lets a unit shoot an additional time? I TAKE IT!

That's 60 Sonic Blaster shots in a unit of 10 if they are all equipped with Sonic Blaster. Combine that with the +1 to-wound Stratagem and watch Horde player cry! 

 

 

Oh and two wound Possessed are awesome news as well!

[Sception]

Since Black Legion are supposed to focus a fair amount on Chosen, the "Rapid Fire = Assault" thing is pretty awesome. Imagine a unit of Chosen dismounting from a Rhino, rolling up and advancing to fire both parts of their Combi-Flamers.....with Sorcerer/Lord/Abaddon support offsetting the penalties.

Eh, so far I've found that the rhino already makes it far enough forward not to need this, and in particular I'm often in position to charge on the turn I disembark from the rhino, so I wouldn't want to advance regardless.

 

BL Terminators Advancing forward and unleashing hell in a similar fashion is going to be nasty too. Esp with a little help from Warptime.

 

Terminators don't need to advance to get into shooting range, they /deploy/ in shooting range, and since their best ranged weapon is plasma they absolutely to do not want to be eating that -1 to hit penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons (assuming it applies, rumors haven't been clear yet).

 

Large squads of Bikers w/Turbo Boost for removing horde infantry.

 

This actually has some potential, though I don't traditionally think of Black Legion as a bike army.

 

Plasma Raptors, anyone?

 

Raptors don't need to advance to get into shooting range, like terminators they just deploy there.  And like terminators with combi plas, they can't afford to be taking any penalties to hit.

 

Then there's the idea of Advancing Rhinos laying down fire with multiple Combi-bolters. Or....ye gods.....Black Legion Rubricae from the Sons of the Cyclops.

 

Rhino has at most, what, one combi bolter and one combi plasma?  Honestly, I'd probably rather blow smoke.  Rubicae have potential, but... again, a rhino usually gets you where you're going already, no need to advance to get into range.

 

Finally....+1LD? That means Termies with an IoV have LD 11. You gotta kill 6 guys and roll a 6 for them to care. Makes 10 man Undivided squads much more viable.....or allows marked squads to not worry about giving something up by having to take a different Icon.

 

+1 leadership is nice, though you have to be running a pretty huge squad of terminators to even start taking morale tests, and multiple small units have been better so far.  Though that may change with the cacophony strategem, which absolutely favors the hugest units you can field.  Though if Abaddon is nearby then you don't care about leadership regardless.

 

As for Word Bearers rerolling morale......Cultists, baby. Put a Dark Apostle near multiple units and they have LD9, rerolling. Also makes Horde CSM units viable with Icon of Vengeance.

 

I don't know.  Even re-rolling the D6, just the sheer number of casualties you can take on a large bubblewrap may be enough that it doesn't matter what you role.  Probably better off skipping Word Bearers cultists and taking renegade cultists instead, which you can keep in place with enforcers.  But that's only the morale thing, there may be other benefits to Word Bearers cultists that we've yet to see.

 

Night Lords = Yessssss. People will need to pack morale mitigation characters and they should be OK until they lose them. Stratagems will help too, so I don't think it's OP. A kick in the teeth, yes, but not broken IMO.

 

Absolutely agreed, the night lord trait, if that's actually what it is, is fantastic, both mechanically and thematically.  I love it.  Get a bunch of squads in there, a character or two, and even a few casualties will have enemy units running for the hills en masse.

 

Just gotta be sure to snipe those comissars somehow.  Again a side detachment of renegades might be in order, this time for the marauders & their sniper rifles.

 

 

NOTE:  While I'm a bit skeptical of the usefulness of some of the rumored traits, I don't mean any of this to be negative overall!  I'm still super excited all round.  Even if the BL trait is a bit meh, there's still room for the command ability, stratagem, and artifact(s?) to make up for it, and even if they don't I'm still ok with that so long as the base rules are good to start, and +1 wound on possessed, at no point change, is a promising sign on that front, imo.

Edited July 31, 2017 by malisteen

[Custodian Athiair]

From intense peering at White Dwarf - why can't I find a magnifying glass! - I genuinely think the Iron Warriors have been given a copy-paste job with the Imperial Fists. Which honestly sickens me a little.

 

Obviously I don't know what a more viable option would be, but honestly I'm beyond disappointed. Iron Warriors = spiky Imperial Fists more than ever. 

 

Although I can see the irony in it, the Iron Warriors sided with Horus because everyone liked the Imperial Fists more than them

[Panzer]

From intense peering at White Dwarf - why can't I find a magnifying glass! - I genuinely think the Iron Warriors have been given a copy-paste job with the Imperial Fists. Which honestly sickens me a little.

 

Obviously I don't know what a more viable option would be, but honestly I'm beyond disappointed. Iron Warriors = spiky Imperial Fists more than ever. 

 

Although I can see the irony in it, the Iron Warriors sided with Horus because everyone liked the Imperial Fists more than them

I honestly wouldn't mind IW getting the same trait as IF. It fits and is pretty damn strong on the right boards. Warlord Traits and Stratagems will make the difference here.

[Sception]

Well, even if their trait is lackluster, there's still room to make up for it with their command ability, stratagem, and artifacts.  We'll see.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

The Word Bearers trait is pretty disappointing. I don't know why GW doesn't give them some kind of bonus to using keyword Daemon units or buffs to their ability to summon. Possibly too OP? 

 

I'm still a bit new to all things Chaos.. Renegades means Renegade Guard is back?

[Panzer]

 

I'm still a bit new to all things Chaos.. Renegades means Renegade Guard is back?

Renegades means Space Marines that turned traitor but aren't part of any of the Traitor Legions in this case. A popular example would be Red Corsairs.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Darn, I was thinking we were going to have access to cultist with more dakka!

Edited July 31, 2017 by Bloody Legionnaire

[MyD4rkPassenger]

Darn, I was thinking we were going to have access to cultist with more dakka!

 

I will definitely recommend checking out the Renegades and Heretics list from forgeworld if you're interested in traitor guard.

[Panzer]

Yeah I kinda wish they would've given us access to Astra Militarum the same way GSC got. Maybe with some restrictions of course. Then again that would be the "cheap" way and I'd much rather prefer a proper R&H Codex from GW at some point in the future.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

 

I'm still a bit new to all things Chaos.. Renegades means Renegade Guard is back?

Renegades means Space Marines that turned traitor but aren't part of any of the Traitor Legions in this case. A popular example would be Red Corsairs.

 

I think he means, just that, Renegade Guard. And yes, is back, in the FW Astra Militarum Index :)

[Sception]

Sorry, I meant 'renegades' as in 'renegades & heretics', the FW traitor guard faction.  With renegade chaos marine chapters, that term's getting a bit overloaded...

 

But anyway, yeah, R&H aren't exactly the most impressive force on their own, but they have some tools that make them an interesting side detachment choice for a CSM army, including:

 

the same cultists as us, except the enforcers solve their morale issues

 

enforcers - traitor comissars - to limit morale casualties to d3 per unit per turn

 

the same cultists as us, minus the heretic astartes and legion keywords, but benefiting from enforcers

 

even cheaper (though much junkier) infantry bubble wraps in militia and mutants who also benefit from the enforcers

 

elite slot marauders, a cheap squad with two sniper rifles and extra save in cover

 

heavy slot earthshaker batteries - basically cheap immobile basilisks

 

some other stuff

 

 

A bit off topic from this thread, particularly as they won't benefit from the new legion rules, but they still might compliment some legion choices well, or even invalidate some others.  Again, word bearers trait and an apostle won't keep big cultists blobs around half so well as a couple of enforcers will.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Since Black Legion are supposed to focus a fair amount on Chosen, the "Rapid Fire = Assault" thing is pretty awesome. Imagine a unit of Chosen dismounting from a Rhino, rolling up and advancing to fire both parts of their Combi-Flamers.....with Sorcerer/Lord/Abaddon support offsetting the penalties.

Eh, so far I've found that the rhino already makes it far enough forward not to need this, and in particular I'm often in position to charge on the turn I disembark from the rhino, so I wouldn't want to advance regardless.

 

BL Terminators Advancing forward and unleashing hell in a similar fashion is going to be nasty too. Esp with a little help from Warptime.

 

Terminators don't need to advance to get into shooting range, they /deploy/ in shooting range, and since their best ranged weapon is plasma they absolutely to do not want to be eating that -1 to hit penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons (assuming it applies, rumors haven't been clear yet).

 

Large squads of Bikers w/Turbo Boost for removing horde infantry.

 

This actually has some potential, though I don't traditionally think of Black Legion as a bike army.

 

Plasma Raptors, anyone?

 

Raptors don't need to advance to get into shooting range, like terminators they just deploy there.  And like terminators with combi plas, they can't afford to be taking any penalties to hit.

 

Then there's the idea of Advancing Rhinos laying down fire with multiple Combi-bolters. Or....ye gods.....Black Legion Rubricae from the Sons of the Cyclops.

 

Rhino has at most, what, one combi bolter and one combi plasma?  Honestly, I'd probably rather blow smoke.  Rubicae have potential, but... again, a rhino usually gets you where you're going already, no need to advance to get into range.

 

Finally....+1LD? That means Termies with an IoV have LD 11. You gotta kill 6 guys and roll a 6 for them to care. Makes 10 man Undivided squads much more viable.....or allows marked squads to not worry about giving something up by having to take a different Icon.

 

+1 leadership is nice, though you have to be running a pretty huge squad of terminators to even start taking morale tests, and multiple small units have been better so far.  Though that may change with the cacophony strategem, which absolutely favors the hugest units you can field.  Though if Abaddon is nearby then you don't care about leadership regardless.

 

As for Word Bearers rerolling morale......Cultists, baby. Put a Dark Apostle near multiple units and they have LD9, rerolling. Also makes Horde CSM units viable with Icon of Vengeance.

 

I don't know.  Even re-rolling the D6, just the sheer number of casualties you can take on a large bubblewrap may be enough that it doesn't matter what you role.  Probably better off skipping Word Bearers cultists and taking renegade cultists instead, which you can keep in place with enforcers.  But that's only the morale thing, there may be other benefits to Word Bearers cultists that we've yet to see.

 

Night Lords = Yessssss. People will need to pack morale mitigation characters and they should be OK until they lose them. Stratagems will help too, so I don't think it's OP. A kick in the teeth, yes, but not broken IMO.

 

Absolutely agreed, the night lord trait, if that's actually what it is, is fantastic, both mechanically and thematically.  I love it.  Get a bunch of squads in there, a character or two, and even a few casualties will have enemy units running for the hills en masse.

 

Just gotta be sure to snipe those comissars somehow.  Again a side detachment of renegades might be in order, this time for the marauders & their sniper rifles.

 

 

NOTE:  While I'm a bit skeptical of the usefulness of some of the rumored traits, I don't mean any of this to be negative overall!  I'm still super excited all round.  Even if the BL trait is a bit meh, there's still room for the command ability, stratagem, and artifact(s?) to make up for it, and even if they don't I'm still ok with that so long as the base rules are good to start, and +1 wound on possessed, at no point change, is a promising sign on that front, imo.

 

Points in order:

1. Against armies like Tau that have massive Overwatch, it can many times be better to just roll up and blast them at point blank range and not even charge. Also, Hammer and Anvil or certain other deployments can sometimes make distance an issue.

 

2. Terminators do not always deploy in shooting range. If you're playing a terminator-heavy army, some will need to start on the table. Additionally, there are things like Early Warning Override, etc that can react to appearance from "Deep Strike." Finally, I'm getting sick of watching Guard players use Sentinels and Valks (or Marine players using tons of Scouts) to basically make mid-game deployment a non-event. This helps counter that. Hopefully the wording doesn't take away the additional shots for Rapid Fire.

 

3. With Raptors, point 2 applies. Additionally, since they can FLY, you can leap over enemies during the advance and put a small squad in a place that is NOT more than 9 in from the enemy.....in position to assassinate an important character or contest an objective, while still firing at low charge.

 

4. Rhinos.....Reece from Frontline Gaming has had great success running "Dakka Rhinos" with 2x Combi-Bolter and a Havoc for shredding infantry with 8+1d6 shots at close range.

 

5. Large squads....Presience, Warp Time, Strategems, other buffs are usually placed on a single squad. Having that squad be huge gives you more bang for your buck. For Cultists, it might actually be good instead to run them in some middle size, like 20, where that LD 9 with reroll will result in 10 kills giving you only maybe 3-4 additional removals so that your Flamers can survive, for example.

 

However, regarding Cultists, they are indeed better with Enforcers unless you're going to take advantage of Legion bonuses like rerolls, etc, as well as Dark Hereticus powers. Apart from those two cases, R&H is the way to go. WB cultists would be if you wanted to use Dark Apostles or Lords/Princes to make them roll better and try to use them to actually fight. R&H is if you want true bubble wrap and thats it (for cheaper, I might add, given the lower prices that R&H pay for certain gear, like Flamers).

 

BTW: I'm also really excited and as an IW player since Index Astartes, I'd be happy with "Spiky Imperial Fists" as long as the Stratagems and Relics were good.

Edited July 31, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Sception]

I was about to argue that, despite dakka rhinos being good, the havoc launcher that is a big part of their output is a heavy weapon and wouldn't benefit from the trait, but then I remembered that rhinos aren't infantry, bikes, or helbrutes, and thus they don't benefit from the trait, anyway.

 

As for shooty armies like tau, unless they're full of fliers (as, admittedly, tau can be), you're still probably better off charging, to force withdrawals on the following turn, temporarily shutting some of those guns up.

Edited July 31, 2017 by malisteen

[Prot]

The one thing I can think of doing with the Black Legion trait is going with my Abaddon + Termie + Sorc drop.... use Warp Time to get a 'free' move + Advance with Melta shots, Abe advances lending Aura. Combi weapons all the sudden become more reliable + Melta gets a better chance at actually being in melta range. Assaults are almost assured at this point.

 

(still hoping Abaddon comes in about 210)

 

I'm still hung up on Oblits. REALLY want to see massive changes there.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Prot

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I was about to argue that, despite dakka rhinos being good, the havoc launcher that is a big part of their output is a heavy weapon and wouldn't benefit from the trait, but then I remembered that rhinos aren't infantry, bikes, or helbrutes, and thus they don't benefit from the trait, anyway.

 

As for shooty armies like tau, unless they're full of fliers (as, admittedly, tau can be), you're still probably better off charging, to force withdrawals on the following turn, temporarily shutting some of those guns up.

Oops. Totally forgot about the Rhinos. Good catch.

 

Tau can largely withdraw without anything in the Flier battlefield role and still shoot you. Devilfish and almost all of the suits have the FLY keyword, and can therefore do so. Dunno if that's what you meant. Suitspam (particularly multiple Commanders) is a big thing right now....and multiple Commanders with Counterfire Defense System and 3 weapons each will do serious damage in Overwatch.

[Sception]

That is what I meant, though fire warriors can't pull the same trick.

 

Anyway, my understanding is that you can't advance with warptime.  And even if you can, then deep strike plus warptime should get you into short melta range anyway.  And if it won't due to bubble wrapping, then advance probably won't make the difference.  And if you're deep striking and warp timing, you might as well charge too, which, again, no advancing.

 

Maybe if there's a general 'advance and charge' stratagem that isn't too pricey?  We'll see.  Again, I'm not ruling the BL trait out, I'm just skeptical at the moment.

Edited July 31, 2017 by malisteen

[Panzer]

 

I was about to argue that, despite dakka rhinos being good, the havoc launcher that is a big part of their output is a heavy weapon and wouldn't benefit from the trait, but then I remembered that rhinos aren't infantry, bikes, or helbrutes, and thus they don't benefit from the trait, anyway.

 

As for shooty armies like tau, unless they're full of fliers (as, admittedly, tau can be), you're still probably better off charging, to force withdrawals on the following turn, temporarily shutting some of those guns up.

Oops. Totally forgot about the Rhinos. Good catch.

 

Tau can largely withdraw without anything in the Flier battlefield role and still shoot you. Devilfish and almost all of the suits have the FLY keyword, and can therefore do so. Dunno if that's what you meant. Suitspam (particularly multiple Commanders) is a big thing right now....and multiple Commanders with Counterfire Defense System and 3 weapons each will do serious damage in Overwatch.

 

I wouldn't overestimate T'au Overwatch tbh. They can't use Markerlights to hit better than 6+ anymore so the best thing they can do is getting re-rolls of 1s and helping with nearby units (which can't Overwatch that phase then anymore!).

Also nobody really takes Counterfire Defense System as T'au. Other Support Systems or even just an additional weapon is usually a much better choice. The real problem, as already mentioned, is that you can't really bind T'au in melee anymore and that their Suits are pretty damn durable now. Especially with Drones nearby. ;)

 

Anyway, my understanding is that you can't advance with warptime.  And even if you can, then deep strike plus warptime should get you into short melta range anyway.  And if it won't due to bubble wrapping, then advance probably won't make the difference.  And if you're deep striking and warp timing, you might as well charge too, which, again, no advancing.

 

Maybe if there's a general 'advance and charge' stratagem that isn't too pricey?  We'll see.  Again, I'm not ruling the BL trait out, I'm just skeptical at the moment.

I'd agree. It clearly says "move" not "advance". Those are two different actions in the movementphase. And if you advance you can't charge a nearby unit which means the enemy can shoot at you without having to fall back with a unit.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Just had a read though the White Dwarf & in case of any worry, Cypher & the Fallen are still part of codex Chaos Space Marines.  Page 147 comment on this in the White Dwarf.