Chaos codex release date 8/5/17

[Lord Abaia]

Am I the only one underwhelmed by the Night Lord's rumored ability? I haven't seen leadership and morale play hardly any role in games in 8th so far.

I don't know. I've only played against a few armies in 8th, but I've been able to make Grey Hunters and Necron Warriors turn tail and run without any special Legion rules yet.

[Goreshed]

Can we please get over the oblits? Seriously. We get it. Everyone gets it. Everyone has a bunch of them or converted a bunch of them because they were an end all be all of the last editions. GW has turned it around and made oblits a medium ranged power as opposed to a long range one. We are returning to the early days of chaos were we didn't have answers to long range units, we were an assault force and you know what assault forces didn't have? Long ranged weaponry. Time to start thinking about using those oblits outside of the box.

 

Am I stoked about all of the IW release? The building bit is a tad pointless as I have yet to see a single game where anyone used building rules. But I supposed if someone wished to use them and then on top of that wished to also spend units in destroying that building then I could see it as a bonus. I would have much rather seen it act more like tank hunters used to.

 

But all in all I'm just glad every legion is getting love and you know what is better? GW is standardizing the armies. They are giving us our Legions, they are giving the loyalist scum their chapters, they will most likely give orks their clans and nids their hive fleets but at the end of the day they aren't charging us anything to do that. No force org limits, no extra points, no nothing. This means that when you actually sit down and play a game the other guy doesn't have a leg up on you just for playing a certain army. They are finally saying "here play that army you love, we wont make you pay more".

[Sception]

They're not really medium ranged powers, though.  Even with average rolls, they're decidedly lackluster for their points.  I'm not objecting to them being toned down (though really in the last edition they hardly warranted much fuss), nor do I object to changing their overall roll, honestly I think making them deep striking medium range firepower, with havocs taking over the long ranged support role, is a perfectly good direction to take them.  They just undershot the firepower they needed to pull that off, and then made it unreliable to boot.

 

The codex doesn't live or die on whether they're good, but hopefully they get something, the way possessed did.  Especially since, in the index, oblits are if anything worse than possessed.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Oblits were silly in the past because they were too flexible. Now they are silly because they are too random to ever be worthwhile. They either need to get cheaper, or have more options.

 

Instead of their weapon being totally random, it should have several profiles to choose from. But those profiles shouldn't be overshadowing actual heavy weapons in the way they used to.

[Sception]

there are bunches of ways to fix oblits, from changing how their weapons work to just giving each oblit two of them so that you at least have a reliable volume of fire even if you roll naff for the gun's stats that turn.  As long as the end result is a more usable unit, I don't care how the designers go about it.

 

Again, even if they don't get fixed, my opinion of the codex overall doesn't really hang on them.  I actually don't have any right now, anyway.  I just prefer there not to be any obvious duds in our unit selection.

[Cryptix]

there are bunches of ways to fix oblits, from changing how their weapons work to just giving each oblit two of them so that you at least have a reliable volume of fire even if you roll naff for the gun's stats that turn. As long as the end result is a more usable unit, I don't care how the designers go about it.

 

Again, even if they don't get fixed, my opinion of the codex overall doesn't really hang on them. I actually don't have any right now, anyway. I just prefer there not to be any obvious duds in our unit selection.

Wait, they DON'T have two of them?

Whoopsie...

[Sception]

HA HA No!  omg no, I wish.  

 

I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with them if they had two.  They'd be armed with, at worst, reaper autocannons then, which wouldn't be that bad.

Edited August 2, 2017 by malisteen

[Panzer]

And tomorrow the best legion!

We're traveling back in time and get the EC article again? :P

 

Am I the only one underwhelmed by the Night Lord's rumored ability? I haven't seen leadership and morale play hardly any role in games in 8th so far.

Dunno. Leadership didn't matter much so far because it was easy to pass the tests. With a heavily reduced Leadership it won't be as easy to pass the tests anymore and might actually start to matter against Night Lords.

Edited August 2, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Sception]

Main problem I have with leadership is that too many of the tools to mitigate leadership ignore it completely (eg: comissars) rather than simply shoring it up (eg: apostles).  It's not as bad as in the past, since once of the most ubiquitous tools for mitigating morale, ATSKNF, was changed from the former kind to the latter kind, but it's still a problem.

 

That said, the kinds of leadership debuffs night lords seem to be capable of stacking - should easily get to -3 from the trait, potentially more from raptors and/or spawn - should make even small unit / high leadership armies start to take morale seriously.

 

I think there's room for it to be useful, and it's certainly fun & thematic.  In the long run, though, sure it looks to be one of the weaker legion traits, but artifact, warlord ability, & all could make up some difference.

 

And I still don't see it as the weakest trait, even if it is on the lower end of the scale.  It's at least directly relevant to their fluff.  Setting aside why you would ever even want to, what does firing rapid fire weapons as assault weapons have to do with the Black Legion?

[Panzer]

I agree. And that they can 'hide' such key units too easily. I mean if Sniper units would work properly (and if we had access to them) it would be cool since everybody had a counter mechanic for such characters and the enemy would actually have to bring more than a single Comissar for 120 conscripts but yeah it unfortunately is not like that.

Our only hope is to snipe such a character with the psychic powers with rather short range that hopefully deal enough Mortal wounds to take care of them..

 

So far Night Lords have the best (and kinda the only) chance to make the enemy feel like his leadership actually matters....at times. Which is cool for Night Lords but bad for the game.

[olsol]

Am I the only one underwhelmed by the Night Lord's rumored ability? I haven't seen leadership and morale play hardly any role in games in 8th so far.

As a Night Lords player, I'm not to happy about it. Although used right with some raptors won't be that bad I was expecting something in addition like 'always gains the benefit of cover on the first turn' to represent night fighting. Oh well. Hopefully their relics and WT's are not that bad

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've found morale to matter quite a lot when playing as Dark Eldar. It's very annoying to have a few of my warriors get killed, and then lose another 2-3 models in the morale phase. It makes ablative wounds for special weapons much weaker. In the past, losing half my squad didn't mean much. Now I lose half my squad, and I'm liable to have the rest of it just die to morale.

 

Sure,  morale isn't as big of an issue for marines. But that doesn't mean it's not working.

[Plaguecaster]

Should be interesting what the NL traits and strategems are as Imagine how awesome it'd be if there was a trait or stratagem which ignored any other moral abilities (like Commissars) for a turn

[helterskelter]

The stratagem i' d like to see is board wide night fight for a turn. Bringing the Night is our deal yo.

[Brother Aiwass]

We need to find a way to kill those synapse commissorks. Is not that this shouldn't be a priority anyway. Marauders are a choice, but not the best and now we're talking about taking non-legion units -and not a specially good one, with only 2 snipers per unit. Infernal Gaze may work, but that's at best one sniped char per turn, which isn't great.

 

And while I can understand the "our legion trait is weak" we need to take in account that when we're at the army building stage. Not every foe have the same weaknesses and we shouldn't one-trick-pony every army we face. We have the tools to deal* with horde armies thanks to FW and now -if the trait is true- we can frighten those cocky Ultramarines, eldar of all kind, tau and whatnot to make them run for their lives**

 

I do think our trait is fluffy and useful and it can be very powerful against non synapse commissork armies. Two units of raptors*** would bleed Ld like no ones business: -1 or 2 fearsome visage (if stacks with itself), -2 for being NL, and an addiotional -1 or 2 if you go the Nurgle**** flag party way. So that's a minimum of -4 Ld to a hopeful -6 Ld. With that in mind, Butcher Cannons are our friends.

 

We have tools at our disposal, we best use'em!

 

P.S: And yet we have to see when codex Imperial Blobs is launched, if is there any nerf to those longcoat morale dealers.

 

* note that I've said "deal" instead of "roflstomping"

** like that is going to work, poor fools

*** inb4 "but we're not the raptor legion!"...

**** and "but NL don't have marks, how you dare?!"

Edited August 2, 2017 by Brother Aiwass

[DreamIsCollapsing]

We need to find a way to kill those synapse commissorks. Is not that this shouldn't be a priority anyway. Marauders are a choice, but not the best and now we're talking about taking non-legion units -and not a specially good one, with only 2 snipers per unit. Infernal Gaze may work, but that's at best one sniped char per turn, which isn't great.

 

 

I would love to see a Night lord army with Raptor + Sorcerer. Give sorcerer Gift of Chaos & Infernal Gaze psy power (or Gift of Chaos & Warp time).

Snipe the commissorks with Gift of Chaos, charge with the raptor, charge with the Spawn, charge with the Sorcerer -> Enjoy the -4 Leadership debuff (-5 if the Sorcerer made it to close).

Add the Icon of Despair for much fun.

[Panzer]

I just go with the Emperor's Children mindset. Foes that don't run are more fun to kill as long as they don't stop screaming. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Tho I admit I can afford to say that because twice shooting ObSec Noise Marines that can get a 5+ FnP and horde butchering DP/Helbrutes (if the translated Stratagem turns out to work just like that) gives me a VERY warm&fuzzy feeling.

Edited August 2, 2017 by sfPanzer

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I just got with the Emperor's Children mindset. Foes that don't run are more fun to kill as long as they don't stop screaming. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Tho I admit I can afford to say that because twice shooting ObSec Noise Marines that can get a 5+ FnP and horde butchering DP/Helbrutes (if the translated Stratagem turns out to work just like that) gives me a VERY warm&fuzzy feeling.

 

Well as i said, i will love to see a Night Lord army working on this kind of combo.

But as an EC i will love give the enemy a taste of a Raptoricide. Get those raptor at 11" of a juicy enemy units, equip them with 2 meltagun and one combi-melta.

Fire 5 shot.

Use stratagem.

Fire 5 shot.

 

On a Land raider that's about 3,7 wound, who will do on average 10 wounds (more in fact, didnt take into account melta are the better of two rolls at this distance).

 

Or give them plasma against terminator. Or two units with flamers against horde. Walk them at 8" of the horde, fire 12D6 flamer shot, then overwatch, and one unit will still attack first.

 

Slaanesh give our units so much punch.. More attack on melee (even if i want so much change on IoE), even more attack on melee and double fire power out of nowhere.. We can surprise-butsex the opponent so easily.

Edited August 2, 2017 by DreamIsCollapsing

[Brother Aiwass]

For flamer spam (or any special) havocs are still my favorite. While they lack the mobility of raptors, 2x5 havocs with flamers in a rhino would provide 5D6 flame attacks each, that's 20D6 with the stratagem, and that's nuts.

 

70 hits

42 wounds on GEQ or 35 on MEQ

31 kills on GEQ or 11 on MEQ

 

If I did the math right, that is :P

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

I just got with the Emperor's Children mindset. Foes that don't run are more fun to kill as long as they don't stop screaming. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Tho I admit I can afford to say that because twice shooting ObSec Noise Marines that can get a 5+ FnP and horde butchering DP/Helbrutes (if the translated Stratagem turns out to work just like that) gives me a VERY warm&fuzzy feeling.

 

Well as i said, i will love to see a Night Lord army working on this kind of combo.

But as an EC i will love give the enemy a taste of a Raptoricide. Get those raptor at 11" of a juicy enemy units, equip them with 2 meltagun and one combi-melta.

Fire 5 shot.

Use stratagem.

Fire 5 shot.

 

On a Land raider that's about 3,7 wound, who will do on average 10 wounds (more in fact, didnt take into account melta are the better of two rolls at this distance).

 

Or give them plasma against terminator. Or two units with flamers against horde. Walk them at 8" of the horde, fire 12D6 flamer shot, then overwatch, and one unit will still attack first.

 

Slaanesh give our units so much punch.. More attack on melee (even if i want so much change on IoE), even more attack on melee and double fire power out of nowhere.. We can surprise-butsex the opponent so easily.

 

 

You're thinking too small, mate.

 

Drop a squad of combi plasma terminators. Buff them with prescience. Then use the stratagem for +1 to W (depending on target) and the one to have them shoot twice. Have your second power be FNP.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Yea i was thinking small point value coz i also want Noise marine, possessed with FNP5+, Noise marine hellbrute... i want Chosen to have some cool special rules so i can take a Palatine squad with IoE, rush in with prescience and Exces of Violence stratagem and oh God.. 2 attack per men, hitting on 2+, +1 attack for each 4+, +1 attack for each unit killed..

 

So much envy..

[Panzer]

 

I just got with the Emperor's Children mindset. Foes that don't run are more fun to kill as long as they don't stop screaming. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Tho I admit I can afford to say that because twice shooting ObSec Noise Marines that can get a 5+ FnP and horde butchering DP/Helbrutes (if the translated Stratagem turns out to work just like that) gives me a VERY warm&fuzzy feeling.

 

Well as i said, i will love to see a Night Lord army working on this kind of combo.

But as an EC i will love give the enemy a taste of a Raptoricide. Get those raptor at 11" of a juicy enemy units, equip them with 2 meltagun and one combi-melta.

Fire 5 shot.

Use stratagem.

Fire 5 shot.

 

On a Land raider that's about 3,7 wound, who will do on average 10 wounds (more in fact, didnt take into account melta are the better of two rolls at this distance).

 

Or give them plasma against terminator. Or two units with flamers against horde. Walk them at 8" of the horde, fire 12D6 flamer shot, then overwatch, and one unit will still attack first.

 

Slaanesh give our units so much punch.. More attack on melee (even if i want so much change on IoE), even more attack on melee and double fire power out of nowhere.. We can surprise-butsex the opponent so easily.

 

Keep in mind that the double shooting is only for infantry and bikes. ;)

[Ghorgul]

I have to eat up my negative words about Night Lords a little, their Legion Trait is not that bad actually.

 

It's about how the re-rolls work, for example Marines with ATSKNF, the re-roll can be made on failed Morale Test. Re-rolls however happen before modifiers. So if 5 man Tactical Squad takes 2 casualties and is in close combat with Night Lords Raptor unit (-2 Ld total) and they then roll for morale test. Now the test is actually failure at roll of 5 and 6, because 5+2+2 = 9 and sergeant Ld is 8. Modifiers however are added only after re-roll, so technically roll of 5 or 6 in this case is still a successful morale test! 6+2 = 8.

 

So the Night Lords trait is quite powerful after all, and then if you start stacking it up with multiple units, Raptors' Fearsome Visage (un-stackable?) and Butcher Cannon you can actually wipe out Space Marine units with minimal inflicted casualties as the ATSKNF does not trigger.

 

Raptors' Fearsome Visage also looks like it should stack with multiple Raptor units because of the wording.

[Brother Aiwass]

But, the modifiers of the trait are to the Ld characteristic, not to the roll. In the example you provided, the SM unit should have Ld 4 (8 standard with -2 for debuff and -2 casualties) I think, so ATSKNF still triggers?

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Keep in mind that the double shooting is only for infantry and bikes.

 

Raptor aren't infantry ?