The Black Legion

[Khornestar]

 

I could never finish this novel... not nearly as good as the last one. Story is not nearly as detailed and well thought... seems like he was just going for the easy play to his fanboys.

 

 

You can think something sucks. More power to you! But inventing reasons for why it sucks, that are obviously based on ridiculous insults without any evidence... What do you get out of that?

 

"An easy play to his fanboys." Christ alive, imagine actually believing that. Imagine how shamefully cynically you need to see the world to even frame that as a possibility.

Hey, compared to the dumps people on the forums (Dakka moreso than B&C) take on other BL writers, you got off easy!

 

The elitist vein that runs through the hobby, especially when it comes to the background narrative, is one of the worst aspects of the fandom. It’s a small subset of a normally awesome group of people, as evidenced by the mostly constructive discussions in the thread. Sometimes people convince themselves that the way they see things is representative of reality, for some reason.

 

But I’m just a fanboy, so what do I know? :P

[Draakur]

Still in my top 3 hobby-related books, easily... I absolutely cannot wait for the series to continue (it's... it's continuing right, A D-B? ... right? :cry:) The idea that it could somehow have looked "not nearly as detailed and thought out" is genuinely baffling to me. I feel as if there's plentiful evidence, in basically every chapter, suggesting that that was not the case.

[JH79]

Black Legion was a very different kind of experience, but maybe that was the whole point. To tell it's story Black Legion would have suffered if it had been approached from the same slow paced introspection of Talon. We had the odd glimpse of Talons style and pace here and there and that was enough for me.

 

I should imagine that the 3rd book in this series, should ADB & BL wish to continue with it, will be slightly different in it's style again, after all variety is the spice of life!

[b1soul]

@Black Orange

 

Could you please elaborate?

 

Why did you enjoy Talon so much more than Black Legion?

[bluntblade]

I also don't see what's so easy about it. Not as if it's the Black Legion stomping everything in sight.

[MrDarth151]

 

You can think something sucks. More power to you! But inventing reasons for why it sucks, that are obviously based on ridiculous insults without any evidence... What do you get out of that?

 

"An easy play to his fanboys." Christ alive, imagine actually believing that. Imagine how shamefully cynically you need to see the world to even frame that as a possibility.

 

You get rationalisation. It's an easy way out. 

 

Literary analysis, that's actually a decent level, is a pain in the arse to conduct.

 

Also, your writing style lends itself well to this kind of criticism.

 

Edit.

 

To clarify, I mean "playing to his fanboys" part.

[A D-B]

 

 

You can think something sucks. More power to you! But inventing reasons for why it sucks, that are obviously based on ridiculous insults without any evidence... What do you get out of that?

 

"An easy play to his fanboys." Christ alive, imagine actually believing that. Imagine how shamefully cynically you need to see the world to even frame that as a possibility.

 

You get rationalisation. It's an easy way out. 

 

Literary analysis, that's actually a decent level, is a pain in the arse to conduct.

 

Also, your writing style lends itself well to this kind of criticism.

 

Edit.

 

To clarify, I mean "playing to his fanboys" part.

 

 

On the contrary, literally every author in an IP gets that accusation, and many get it far more than I do. You even see codex authors getting it en masse. The ubiquity of it across all IPs-- especially 40K-- is just one of the many ways to know it's nonsense. Authors don't portray their favourite things as "better", and they don't play to their "fanboys". Indeed, 99% of the time, "fanboys" are just readers who like what someone wrote or directed, and they're just called "fanboys" by people angry that something is popular.

 

As usual, both things are famously things only bitter fans of various IPs tend to think or assume, and have no space in any professional's mindset. Or, indeed, reality. But it's almost always the first line of accusation for drek-level criticism, and the line of nonsense all authors ignore. Y'know when authors/directors/musicians say "Not all criticism is equally valid"? This is the front lines of what we mean.

[bluntblade]

It is worth noting that, essentially, the Black Legion had to do this:

https://goo.gl/images/vEu58e

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

You can think something sucks. More power to you! But inventing reasons for why it sucks, that are obviously based on ridiculous insults without any evidence... What do you get out of that?

 

"An easy play to his fanboys." Christ alive, imagine actually believing that. Imagine how shamefully cynically you need to see the world to even frame that as a possibility.

 

You get rationalisation. It's an easy way out. 

 

Literary analysis, that's actually a decent level, is a pain in the arse to conduct.

 

Also, your writing style lends itself well to this kind of criticism.

 

Edit.

 

To clarify, I mean "playing to his fanboys" part.

 

 

On the contrary, literally every author in an IP gets that accusation, and many get it far more than I do. You even see codex authors getting it en masse. The ubiquity of it across all IPs-- especially 40K-- is just one of the many ways to know it's nonsense. Authors don't portray their favourite things as "better", and they don't play to their "fanboys". Indeed, 99% of the time, "fanboys" are just readers who like what someone wrote or directed, and they're just called "fanboys" by people angry that something is popular.

 

As usual, both things are famously things only bitter fans of various IPs tend to think or assume, and have no space in any professional's mindset. Or, indeed, reality. But it's almost always the first line of accusation for drek-level criticism, and the line of nonsense all authors ignore. Y'know when authors/directors/musicians say "Not all criticism is equally valid"? This is the front lines of what we mean.

 

 

Just to be clear: I didn't mean to imply that said criticism was really valid. While art is subjective, logic is not. Arguments should still be well made.

 

That said, most people don't have access to writers. Or indeed, have much idea about writing process at all. We often intuitively feel things that are really not true.

 

With that said, the creative freedom allowed Black Library writers tends to work towards the idea of illusion that people are playing favourites.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Black orange literally only trolls. You can see it earlier in the thread talking about how the black sword is a better sword than drachnyen because of its stats in 30k. Look at any comment made by him for more examples.

 

Just hit report

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Rather than reporting him, as it’s debatable if he’s trolling or extremely biased, use the Ignore function.

[LJF]

I'd say that ADB's recent novels lack in quality compared to his earlier ones, but with exception of one I never noticed any fanboyism or bias in his books. They would be considered quite controversial by fanboys since his characters are far from perfect and often screw up.

 

His Night Lords completely suck for example, they are so incompetent they aren't even worth being called adeptus astartes and I cannot imagine any NL fanboy would be pleased by the NL trilogy. And yet it's GREAT, in fact Void Stalker is so insane that it's probably the best trilogy ending book that i've ever read.

 

And if I am a fanboy then I definetely wasn't pleased that much with ToH and BL and the series better be just warming up because it still has some ways to go before it tops the NL trilogy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

How do they suck? They're still Astartes, doing Astartes-level things, it's just that they're raiders. They understand that weight of numbers is a thing, so won't try to solo whole planets. When you've only got 30 or so guys, you need to be realistic about what you're capable of doing without further crippling your strength.

[mc warhammer]

How do they suck? They're still Astartes, doing Astartes-level things, it's just that they're raiders. They understand that weight of numbers is a thing, so won't try to solo whole planets. When you've only got 30 or so guys, you need to be realistic about what you're capable of doing without further crippling your strength.

 

 

they "suck" in superficial terms as in they don't fit the usual ideas of hardcore kick a$$

 

which is to say, they don't suck at all

[mc warhammer]

 

. The ubiquity of it across all IPs-- especially 40K-- is just one of the many ways to know it's nonsense. Authors don't portray their favourite things as "better", and they don't play to their "fanboys". Indeed, 99% of the time, "fanboys" are just readers who like what someone wrote or directed, and they're just called "fanboys" by people angry that something is popular..

 

 

 

i spend a fair bit of time on different forums across a range of ips, genres and mediums and this type of "complaint" crops up repeatedly on them all. the content is general but it almost always includes some sort of imagined insight into the creative process or creator's mind and its almost always negative and insulting. 

 

it's to appeal to fanboys or to troll fans or to stroke their own ego or to make their mark at the expense of all thats holy or...

 

somehow it's never to tell the best story they know how

[Lord_Caerolion]

And "no Night Lords fanboys would like the series"? Dude, LJF, you have not seen the Night Lords players and how much they love the books, have you?

 

Sure, Black Legion wasn't the most action-packed book, but that's because A D-B has never seemed to really like writing "and then they got into a big fight, and this guy shot that guy, and then he stabbed this other guy, and another guy tried to stab him back, but because the first guy was awesome he ended up being stabbed himself". Instead, we got a real, actual look at how the Chaos Legion operates in its day-to-day life, how it rose from infancy, slowly becoming the apocalyptic threat that it is currently. How Abaddon rose from being just some Champion into being the literal anti-christ. People say Daravek was a weak villain, but it's what he represents that's the threat. He's the past refusing to die, clinging to the old beliefs of the 9 Legions, the antithesis of the Black Legion. He wants to literally be a new Horus, enslaving himself to the Gods, the Legions beaten and broken to fight together as individual Legions under his boot, rather than fighting as one brotherhood under a leader they respect.

A D-B can do action. Betrayer showed us that. More important to him, from what I can see, is why the fights are occurring, what is being gained or lost, and Black Legion does that spectacularly.

[Khornestar]

I'd say that ADB's recent novels lack in quality compared to his earlier ones

 

By what metric are you measuring quality between earlier books and Black Legion? How much you liked them?

[bluntblade]

Daravek comes within a whisker of destroying the Black Legion. I don't call that weak

[Phoebus]

Daravek... was the wrinkle in the novel for me.

 

I enjoyed Black Legion a great deal. I think it was a great entry to an already great series, which I hope will continue for the foreseeable future. Daravek, though, just didn't do it for me. There's every chance I missed crucial details, but it felt as if his power and clout were undeserved. Daravek barely escapes the systematic and comprehensive and ruthless destruction of one of his warbands and strongholds at the start of the novel. We shouldn't take for granted the amount of preparation of effort Khayon put into his intended assassination, but the takeaway from this for me was that Abaddon genuinely expected that the sorcerer was capable of eliminating Daravek. It's qualified that Daravek has clout and wields considerable power both personally and in terms of his hosts, but the impression Abaddon gives is that this is a rival to be squashed -- not a proper threat. The increasing threat Daravek poses as the novel progresses thus left me, I don't know, wrong-footed.

[DarKnight]

Daravek... was the wrinkle in the novel for me.

 

I enjoyed Black Legion a great deal. I think it was a great entry to an already great series, which I hope will continue for the foreseeable future. Daravek, though, just didn't do it for me. There's every chance I missed crucial details, but it felt as if his power and clout were undeserved. Daravek barely escapes the systematic and comprehensive and ruthless destruction of one of his warbands and strongholds at the start of the novel. We shouldn't take for granted the amount of preparation of effort Khayon put into his intended assassination, but the takeaway from this for me was that Abaddon genuinely expected that the sorcerer was capable of eliminating Daravek. It's qualified that Daravek has clout and wields considerable power both personally and in terms of his hosts, but the impression Abaddon gives is that this is a rival to be squashed -- not a proper threat. The increasing threat Daravek poses as the novel progresses thus left me, I don't know, wrong-footed.

In this time leading up to Abaddon receiving the blessing of Chaos Ascendant, they were the two preeminent warlords in the Eye, so do you think Khayon could've killed Abaddon with the same preparation? Because I don't.

[LJF]

And "no Night Lords fanboys would like the series"? Dude, LJF, you have not seen the Night Lords players and how much they love the books, have you?

 

 

 

I love the books themselves as well and if they love the NL for their inability to get :cuss done and always running away then I won't judge

 

 

I'd say that ADB's recent novels lack in quality compared to his earlier ones

 

By what metric are you measuring quality between earlier books and Black Legion? How much you liked them?

 

With the earlier books I'm always excited to read them again even 3 or 4 times. However when I finished Ragnar Blackmane or Black Legion i was like: "This took a year to write?....Okay" Hardly managed to finish them twice. They are still good but not "Better spend 12 months on this and make sure it's worth it" good. I've read books with simalar length and quality which took 3-4 months to write. Just saying.

[Phoebus]

In this time leading up to Abaddon receiving the blessing of Chaos Ascendant, they were the two preeminent warlords in the Eye, so do you think Khayon could've killed Abaddon with the same preparation? Because I don't.

What I’m trying to say is that the opening chapters didn’t give me the impression that Daravek was one of two preeminent warlords in the Eye. It felt jarring for him to go from being hunted down by Khayon, his warriors being systematically taken apart, at the start of the novel to having the Black Legion on the run later on.

 

What I need to do is re-read the book — both for personal pleasure, because it was great, and to make sure I didn’t miss something glaring the first time around!

[A D-B]

 

In this time leading up to Abaddon receiving the blessing of Chaos Ascendant, they were the two preeminent warlords in the Eye, so do you think Khayon could've killed Abaddon with the same preparation? Because I don't.

What I’m trying to say is that the opening chapters didn’t give me the impression that Daravek was one of two preeminent warlords in the Eye. It felt jarring for him to go from being hunted down by Khayon, his warriors being systematically taken apart, at the start of the novel to having the Black Legion on the run later on.

 

What I need to do is re-read the book — both for personal pleasure, because it was great, and to make sure I didn’t miss something glaring the first time around!

 

 

You also nailed it though, in a way. Daravek was less "The One Rival to Abaddon", so to speak, and more an introduction to the threat that rivals were possible. He had a big-ass host, but even then, it rivalled the Black Legion in size when the Black Legion was technically still pretty small, by its modern/current standards. 

 

tl;dr -- You're right, Pheebs. But there's a bit more to it, too.

[Phoebus]

Indeed there is, and reading Black Legion again is already addressing the concerns I had. I mean, with the benefit of hindsight, what I did was allow Khayon’s masterful defeat of Daravek’s men affect how I read the confrontation between those two. Yes, Daravek leaves the battlefield, but that’s not the same as him fleeing.

 

Here’s what we’ll do: let’s pretend that it was totally Ruinstorm, The Crimson King, and Warmaster that got in the way of me doing my homework, and absolve me of responsibility on this matter. Deal? Deal!

[b1soul]

@ LJF

 

"His Night Lords completely suck for example, they are so incompetent they aren't even worth being called adeptus astartes and I cannot imagine any NL fanboy would be pleased by the NL trilogy."

 

First Claw was highly formidable at the squad level. They generally butchered loyalist SM and fellow NL with few or no losses. His NL were only weaker at a macro level...so there's some balance.