New Codex Incoming!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Define fail, though. There's degrees of failure in Morale now. Plus if you bump up the Ld, then you didn't fail, and so do you shoot the guy at all?

[olcottr]

Conscripts aren't broken. It's just that players have forgot how to deal with hordes.  The last couple of editions have been so elite-friendly. They just have to get used to the new meta.

[olcottr]

A brigade consists of 3 battalions, and a battalion consists of 3 companies.  So by the current detachment rules, one company can consist of 1 infantry squad. Something needs to be fixed there.  Maybe unique AM detachments?

 

A company would be 1 company commander, 2-3 platoon commanders, and 2-5 infantry squads for each platoon commander.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

For my Part I'm hoping for unique regimental units. I know that I'm not in the minority on this one but I want to see kasrkin return.  As much as I like the way scions are now, giving Cadians back their Kasrkin (and make them troops please), would be great.

[Halfpint100]

I would love for a plastic rough rider kit to come with the codex!

[Withershadow]

For my Part I'm hoping for unique regimental units. I know that I'm not in the minority on this one but I want to see kasrkin return. As much as I like the way scions are now, giving Cadians back their Kasrkin (and make them troops please), would be great.

I doubt Cadians will be the poster boys this edition, they have no base of operations anymore, and all their characters are dead or MIA. :P

Edited September 6, 2017 by Withershadow

[olcottr]

Hmm, new plastic regiment models?

[TheShredder]

Regarding Conscripts, I think removing the interaction with Commissars (or nerfing Commissars to hell by making them shoot a model just to give a pitiful Ld8) will kill Conscripts entirely.

 

Their sole function is to be a bullet-screen, but this will basically halve the firepower required to kill them - as any and all morale checks will basically double their losses (regardless of whether or not a Commissar is around).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

For my Part I'm hoping for unique regimental units. I know that I'm not in the minority on this one but I want to see kasrkin return. As much as I like the way scions are now, giving Cadians back their Kasrkin (and make them troops please), would be great.

I doubt Cadians will be the poster boys this edition, they have no base of operations anymore, and all their characters are dead or MIA.

 

I can see your point, but at the same time, some ~60% of the Imperial Guard is derived from Cadian doctrine according to fluff, so it wouldn't be unreasonable... Still, I suppose I'll have to make do with a combined force of Tempestus and Cadians...

[banis]

There will be some kind of change to conscripts or comminsars for sure. But if anything we should be happy about it. The whole conscript spam everywhere is getting boring. I even found myself taking them along my ad mech. a cheap "fearless" screen is a very potent defense now. 

I see alot here comparing how hordes used to work in the previous editions and it is a fallacy. 8th is a whole different game.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

There will be some kind of change to conscripts or comminsars for sure. But if anything we should be happy about it. The whole conscript spam everywhere is getting boring. I even found myself taking them along my ad mech. a cheap "fearless" screen is a very potent defense now.

I agree. Although Guard and Admech is a fairly fluffy combo. Guard and Marines, outside of a large campaign is less so. Though I find myself allying marines into my guard lists to add some CC power so...

 

 

I see a lot here comparing how hordes used to work in the previous editions and it is a fallacy. 8th is a whole different game.

It's not fallacy. We have only previous editions to draw upon as we figure out the new mechanics. Is 8th a whole different game, yes, but unless we compare and contrast with what we know we won't figure things out. Fair though since we no longer have templates we can't delete hordes as easily, and so massed fire is the best way to deal with it. That or slamming a CC unit into it.

[Tirak]

There will be some kind of change to conscripts or comminsars for sure. But if anything we should be happy about it. The whole conscript spam everywhere is getting boring. I even found myself taking them along my ad mech. a cheap "fearless" screen is a very potent defense now. 

I see alot here comparing how hordes used to work in the previous editions and it is a fallacy. 8th is a whole different game.

 

I've only spoken about how hordes work now. Why should a guard horde player be penalized for making use of a very fluffy and viable method of playing guard? I would have no issue with them limiting conscripts to somehow being linked only with Imperial Guard (and perhaps an exception for the Sisters), but trying to break up their utility as you described is a move to punish the guard to spite other armies, and that is not how balance should be worked.

[HenricusTyranicus]

 

There will be some kind of change to conscripts or comminsars for sure. But if anything we should be happy about it. The whole conscript spam everywhere is getting boring. I even found myself taking them along my ad mech. a cheap "fearless" screen is a very potent defense now.

I agree. Although Guard and Admech is a fairly fluffy combo. Guard and Marines, outside of a large campaign is less so. Though I find myself allying marines into my guard lists to add some CC power so...

 

 

 

Eh? Like half the time we see marines doing anything at all there are a bunch of guardsmen in the background. Usually dying, but that's besides the point.

[TheTrans]

Guys, lets be honest.

Looking at the crazy mortal wounds for days stuff that is coming out for the death guard...

 doubt we'll see a nerf... especially for a unit that sells so many models. GW love encouraging large units (look at what happened with 8th ed fantasy), Conscripts will stay the same...sans maybe losing the ability to be ordered, they're worth too much for product movement purposes.

[Lord Marshal]

Conscripts being so powerful is just a consequence of losing templates. If they still existed then they'd be getting wiped off the board Turn 1.

 

Give 'em a rule where Summary Execution requires a 1d6 roll for models executed rather than just the one if they're above 30, which turns into a 1d3 if they're below it and returns to just the one below 20. It makes some sense a Commissar might need to shoot dead a few more men to make his point 'seen' when there's a huge thong of panicking men are going in every direction and it also serves to pick up some of the slack from 8th's lack of effective horde clearance. 

 

I agree losing Orders seems dumb. They're not servitors or jibbering morons who can't understand "Focus fire on that target!" or "Everybody get down!" Their stats already do a good enough job of expressing their inexperience. I do also like the idea of (re)implementing an Infantry Squad tax before you an add a unit.

 

Honestly though, the whole "OMG CONSCRIPT SPAM" seems an overblown meme right now that people are running to for sake of getting Guard nerfed across the board. The only people who are going to have THAT many models are long time Guard players, of whom I doubt many will regularly use such a cheesy list and a number of WAAC players who have the money and energy to buy/build/paint 150 Cadian Infantry. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Lord Marshal

[FallenSoldiers]

What doesn't make sense to me is why people are focused on how conscripts ignore morale.

 

As was pointed out earlier in this thread:

 

Ork Boyz are way scarier en masse and they can be leadership 30, effectively fearless.

 

Tyranids don't take morale while they've got synapse or whatever it's called now.

 

Conscripts aren't really the problem, people not knowing how to actually build 8th edition lists is the problem.

[Altasmurf]

Actually it's more that conscripts can be used imperium wide that causes the issue. Most competitive imperium list are grabbing them for cheap fodder. More elite armies can now play the attrition game by just grabbing 100 conscripts and some commissars for cheap and that's what is giving them a bad name.

Yeah the orks have great hordes but that's kind of it, tyranids I haven't faced so I don't know what their like.

 

It's not that conscripts are powerful it's that their a force multiplier for multiple different forces and that's what makes them so good. As guard we don't see the value as much because our infantry, and vets don't cost a whole lot more. But if suddenly you have massive board control with you space marine army for less then 200 points it's a hell of a thing.

 

I'm not going to say I know a fix because I don't. I'd probably just make them 4 points each just like infantry. (The ability to blob actually has a lot of value). But I would like to see some kind of tweak so they're not in every list of the imperium.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Altasmurf

[gunnyogrady]

Boy howdy, if you want to take a look at how prolific conscripts have become in this post-index, pre-codex, Imperial Soup world, take a look through these lists. It's a breakdown of the top couple dozen NOVA 2017 lists. It's amazing how similar the Imperial lists are, and how many are taking 60-120 conscripts (all of them?).

 

https://mismatchedplay.com/2017/08/31/nova-invitational-lists/

 

The only thing comparable to the conscript spam is the mortar HWS spam. One list has 27 mortars, along with 6 earthshaker carriages! Woah!

 

Also, it seems people are having a lot of luck with Primaris Psyker smite-spam.

 

But the proof is in the pudding, if you want to run our best units, these seem to be the ones spammed across multiple lists, in order of most often to less so:

 

-Conscripts w/ Commissar Support

-Mortar Heavy Weapon Squads

-Primaris Psykers

-Scion/Elysian (Command) Squads w/ Plasma

-Taurox Prime w/ twin HSVG and Gatling Cannon

-support from Celestine

-support from Guilliman

-bare bones Elysian Snipers/Ratling Snipers

-Maticores/Earthshaker Batteries

 

You know what I don't see? Rough Riders. Infantry Squads. Vets. Ogryns. Valks/Vendetts. ANY of our Leman Russ or Superheavy tank variants. Only the Manticore or Earthshaker battery/carriage for our artillery.

 

It's a brave new world that has such minis in it!

 

Honestly, I'm not sure if the new Guard 'dex will be a response to the newly burgeoning meta. The thing was probably done, or close to done, by the time 8th came out. I anticipate they will nerf and buff some units that we're not even thinking about, that they anticipated would need changes before the meta played out. We shall see!

Edited September 7, 2017 by gunnyogrady

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Honestly, I'm glad for the spearhead detachment, because now I can field leman russes with my Space wolves again!

[NatBrannigan]

Is it just when conscripts are being used in marine / mixed Imperium armies that they become powerful? It just seems like such an over reaction otherwise!

 

If that is the case then some of the ideas already mentioned work nicely. Stick 'em back in Platoons so it's at least 2 Infantry Squads per Conscript Squad. Change their summary execution rule to D3 or D6 models lost rather than a flat 1. Just limit them to being used in an army where the Warlord is a Guard character.

 

If you add a point why wouldn't you just use Infantry Squads instead?

 

I have to say, I actually miss being the underdog in every game...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tbh I think Imperium working as one is the problem. Conscripts aren't really all that when ran in Guard, my armies have no problems chewing through my mates force of 2x30 plus Commissars. I don't even have Snipers, I just burn through the horde with anti-infantry firepower.

 

However, when they're a cheap screen being used to supplement characters that weren't designed with 100 expendable bodies in mind, then it becomes a problem.

[Are Verlo]

when all you face is 60 conscripts (2x30) its no issue. Most lists chew through that really fast. On the other hand 150 conscripts (or more), backed by artillery is crazy. 

it is not like players " dont know how to handle hordes". You have to tailor heavily to beat 150 conscripts while 800 points worth of artillery is pounding you.

 

I am not saying it can not be done, but I am sure lot of lists just cant to that while sustaining losses from the artillery and having their key units damaged/killed by scions.

[NatBrannigan]

I'm gosh darned excited about this codex you know! I actually hope we go down a little in power so I'm not sure how they can muck it up!

 

If Leman Russ tanks become a bit more relevant either though improved firepower or reduced points and there are some kind of Lasgun improving regimental tactics for my Praetorians (I'm obviously not expecting Praetorian specific tactics) I'll be happy.

 

I also hope the option to mix Imperium forces stays for the long term because there are many of us who use it to make a nice, fluffy army rather than a hideous, conscript bloated monstrosity of an army. Adding Tactical squads to my Guard actually makes it harder to win but I'd still like the option.

 

Haven't been this excited for a codex for a very long time, and we don't even really "need" one at the moment.

[FallenSoldiers]

I'm starting to see my local meta tournaments shifting to be "you need more than just <imperium> across your whole army to make it legit.

 

I agree that GW opened the doors to a broken system allowing these lists of 100 conscripts and 15 characters ranging from assassins to commissars to Primarchs.

 

The Guard shouldn't lose conscripts in their current form because people use them as a tool to break the game. I don't think the codex will fix this, the codex was most likely completed long before this "issue" arose. I'd wager you'll see an FAQ addressing it sometime though. Hopefully not in a way that screws IG players who are just trying to use a tool from out toolbox.

[NatBrannigan]

I do sympathise with GW here. They need to please the people who play for fun and will avoid a broken combo AND the people who play to win and love a broken combo with the same ruleset. They tried to do this with power levels and narrative play but AoS showed that just because someone likes to play for fun, doesn't mean they don't want two at least roughly evenly matched forces at the start of the game.

 

Frankly I'd say the people that play some crazy conscript with special character army probably come up against multiple Storm Ravens or whatever other overpowered thing is the current favourite so just let them get on with playing the way they want.

 

No different to other games, Magic the gathering for example. I often play with a couple of friends with our silly decks that are fun to play with and fairly evenly matched. Good times had by all. We once took our strongest decks to a tournament and all lost every game, heavily. I mean an utter slaughter, every single time. But those guys who played to win were having fun so good on them.

 

I'm not sure what my point is really. If the codex gives you a unit or combo that surpasses everything else, you don't have to take it? That'll do!