Stratagems and the Ultramarines

[Captain Idaho]

An interesting discussion...

 

How do we get the best out of Stratagems when using the Ultramarines?

 

Mentioned in another thread, should we burn through our Stratagems quickly whilst we have the units still alive or save them for later on to for something decisive when both sides have lost a lot of models?

 

I'm thinking it's a matter of using the Stratagems as soon as possible, providing the benefit of doing so is measurably worthwhile. What does this mean?

 

Well, be bold. If you want your Tactical squad jumping out of a Rhino with plasma and Grav Cannon to attack a powerful target then do it while you can soon as you can! Wait too long and the opponent might stop you or blunt the attack.

 

Conversely, save the Command Point if your Sternguard are shooting at stragglers of a unit instead of using Masterful Marksmanship. That's an obvious waste but there will be times when you have similar options.

 

Ask yourself "would I benefit from this Stratagem above and beyond the alternative of not using it?"

 

I want a minimum of 7 Command Points in a 2000pts game, 6 in a 1500pts game. With 7 Command Points, I'll spend them a couple a turn until I have only a couple left then evaluate what I absolutely need to keep the CPs for.

 

I'm not big on the 3 CP Stratagems personally. They are mostly over costed but one exception could be a counter charge with a Terminator squad against something beastly and using Honour the Chapter. Imagine charging into Mortarion with a Terminator squad and Dreadnought. He is unlikely to kill both and if he goes for the Dreadnought then you could hit him with Honour the Chapter. Potentially game winning.

 

Death to the Traitors! looks interesting in a similar manner.

 

I build my list now to use the Stratagems as best I can. It's our strength thanks to Scions of Guilliman, our Warlord Trait and every unit being able to hurt every unit.

 

I make sure I have at least 1 Heavy Bolter so I can use Hellfire Shells. I try to use Sternguard so I can use Masterful Marksmanship. I have strong Tactical squads so I can benefit from Scions of Guilliman. I have Terminators for assault so I can use Death to the Traitors! and Honour the Chapter.

 

Lastly, we have the best Warlord Trait for an army built for Stratagems. Refunds are amazing and will frustrate your opponent. Take Adept of the Codex EVERY TIME people!

 

I'm interested in hearing other peoples musings on the subject. :)

[Frater Cornelius]

In my Guilliman list, I usually have 9CP. I always keep 3 of those back, so that Guilliman can hit back when he dies in melee and re-roll getting up or the anount of Wounds he will get back.

 

Beyond that, I use the Hellfire Stratagem pretty much every turn. And I make liberal use of my re-roll Stratagem in every single phase.

Armour of Contempt is another favourite that I use at the slightest provocation. Usually, there is also 1CP for the second relic.

Interestingly enough, Scions of Guilliman and Wisdom of the Ancients is something I tend to use rather late into a game, after the army spreads out and isn't concentrated around Guilliman anymore.

 

The thing is, between not having as many Stratagems I can use and getting them back on a 5+, I literally spam all I possibly can in every turn. This makes it really frustrating for the opponent, as between the full re-rolls that Guilliman and all the extra optimizations from the CP use make the army really efficient.

 

Having said that, if you want an army built around Stratagems, you are better of with miniMarines, seeing as GW decided to make Primaris to be anti-synergetic with their own Codex.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I did wonder why Primaris get basically no Stratagems besides Scions of Guilliman. I suppose they can use some but they don't really have the powerful combat units for things like Honour the Chapter or Death to the Traitors! so I guess it means towards only a few specific Stratagems.

 

The Sternguard one is amazing though. Wounding anything T7 on a 4 at least, you can really shred targets with a Rapid Fire attack.

[Stoic Raptor]

I believe that an early advantage takes you further than a late-game reaction.  Taking out a unit means fewer hits and wounds on you every turn, for example.

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed. Though I would say that having a CP spare for late game can be decisive.

 

We, as Adepts of the Codex, can reap the benefits of spending our CPs and still having 1 or 2 in the bank later on.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah I did wonder why Primaris get basically no Stratagems besides Scions of Guilliman. I suppose they can use some but they don't really have the powerful combat units for things like Honour the Chapter or Death to the Traitors! so I guess it means towards only a few specific Stratagems.

 

The Sternguard one is amazing though. Wounding anything T7 on a 4 at least, you can really shred targets with a Rapid Fire attack.

 

To be fair, I am beginning to wonder, why Primaris are even a thing in their current iteration :D

 

How do you get your Sternguard close to make optimal use of their Stratagem? Rhino? LR? Pod? Well, probably not the latter :P But yes, I really like that one. Very potent, against almost any target.

[Welf1984]

Definitely use them as soon as possible. If you use them early you are more likely to destroy units that the other party needs for their strategy, and their stratagems. I recently could have turned a strong turn 1 into a real brutal blow for my opponent if I had used Scions and Wisdom; instead I got tabled at end of turn 3 with 4 CP left.

[Stoic Raptor]

While it's good to have an ace in the hole, if you end the game with CP left (win or lose), you weren't using them often enough.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Yeah I did wonder why Primaris get basically no Stratagems besides Scions of Guilliman. I suppose they can use some but they don't really have the powerful combat units for things like Honour the Chapter or Death to the Traitors! so I guess it means towards only a few specific Stratagems.

The Sternguard one is amazing though. Wounding anything T7 on a 4 at least, you can really shred targets with a Rapid Fire attack.

 

 

To be fair, I am beginning to wonder, why Primaris are even a thing in their current iteration :D

 

How do you get your Sternguard close to make optimal use of their Stratagem? Rhino? LR? Pod? Well, probably not the latter :P But yes, I really like that one. Very potent, against almost any target.

Definitely the Rhino. Along with a Captain with relic blade and Santic Halo.

 

It's actually a really solid assault force too. Shoot target, charge and cackle maniacally.

 

I put a lightning claw on the Sergeant by the way.

[Grim Dog Studios]

 

 

Yeah I did wonder why Primaris get basically no Stratagems besides Scions of Guilliman. I suppose they can use some but they don't really have the powerful combat units for things like Honour the Chapter or Death to the Traitors! so I guess it means towards only a few specific Stratagems.

The Sternguard one is amazing though. Wounding anything T7 on a 4 at least, you can really shred targets with a Rapid Fire attack.

 

To be fair, I am beginning to wonder, why Primaris are even a thing in their current iteration

 

How do you get your Sternguard close to make optimal use of their Stratagem? Rhino? LR? Pod? Well, probably not the latter But yes, I really like that one. Very potent, against almost any target.

Definitely the Rhino. Along with a Captain with relic blade and Santic Halo.

 

It's actually a really solid assault force too. Shoot target, charge and cackle maniacally.

 

I put a lightning claw on the Sergeant by the way.

 

 

I run the pretty much the same unit, 9 Sternguard with 2 Plasmaguns, Power Sword on the Sergeant and then Relic Blade and Santic Halo equipped Captain all in a rhino. They've worked great in every game I've played with them, especially with the Stratagem. 

[Captain Idaho]

Interesting to use 2 plasma guns. They're amazing weapons of course but I fancy maximising the Special Issue Bolters for cheap.

 

Now you've mentioned it though I might HAVE to add a couple guys with heavy flamers/Grav guns/plasma guns. Curses.

[Brother Captain Ed]

While it's good to have an ace in the hole, if you end the game with CP left (win or lose), you weren't using them often enough.

 

I've given this a ton of thought.  On any given game (minus one where I rolled totally bonkers and regained 8 of 11 CP) I've noticed that I usually have 3-5 CP left after any given game (using Adept of the Codex). 

 

Long story short:  I think that our warlord trait frees us from the troop heavy detachments.  Guilliman and a battalion is worth 9.  If that becomes, say, Guilliman, a Vanguard Detachment and a Spearhead Detachment, it's 8.  Or with Calgar it's 7.  With Adept of the Codex, it's a truly minimal loss. 

 

This is not to say troops are bad.  But it leaves us in a unique position to go for the power models without the 300-ish auto-spent points on troops.

[Captain Idaho]

I enjoy the Tactical squads in this edition mind. I like how they're kinda elites for our troops choice whilst previous editions Tactical Marines were distinctly average.

[Bremon]

I've always had a soft spot for tactical marines, but I enjoy troops heavy armies. Re: CP, I think they are best used early for maximum effect. Re: sternguard I feel storm bolters are a better option to special issue, though this thread's mention of stratagem has me rethinking that stance.

[Kallas]

Re: sternguard I feel storm bolters are a better option to special issue, though this thread's mention of stratagem has me rethinking that stance.

With Adept of the Codex and a decent amount of CP (7+) I've been happily using Masterful Marksmanship (Sternguard Stratagem) and Killshot (Predator Stratagem) pretty much all game.

 

Masterful Marksmanship is such a good boost. I've been running a ten-men squad out of a Stormraven with a Lieutenant and then Calgar dropping in/a regular Captain (or just Scions of Guilliman if need be!) It's a great unit. While they're not tank hunters they'll shred basically any TEQ or lower grade unit they aim at.

 

Also, I've been theorising about using Sternguard as a stand off unit. At 30" with Scions/Captain and an Lt nearby (presumably also buffing other stuff, though not even necessarily!) they should put down 7/8 GEQs, or 3/4 MEQs. While not particularly incredible on paper, that's pretty much a Guard Infantry Squad or Combat Squad gone.

 

Combine that with their 36" area of effect (ie, 6" move then 30" range) they can hit that unit first and receive only light return fire from similar units in return. Hell, you could always buy an Aegis Defence Line for 75pts and have them deploy late across from some regular infantry, and watch them mow them down

[Captain Idaho]

Storm Bolters in large numbers is obviously good, having 40 shots each is 40 shots coming from a Rhino. Wounding on a +1 though with -2 AP is hard to pass up. Half as many shots yes but it's these stats that are the bigger deal.

 

You're wounding a Land Raider on a 5+!

[Bremon]

Yeah, it has its place, stormbolters are versatile but stratagem-powered SIBs are better against MEQ and above. Without the strat they are identical against MEQ, stormbolters better against GEQ and SIB against TEQ.

[crazyterran]

Even if you only end up with 7 or 8 SP to start the game with Guilliman or Calgar, that ends up becoming 10 to 12 SP over the course of the game, which is far more than most armies get period, beyond the spammiest of Guard. As mentioned above, this frees us from the constraints of the necessity (though troops are always nice to have) more troop heavy detachments. Spearhead Detachments (since it seems, to me, this edition that Heavy Support is the most powerful section for the Space Marines) backed by Guilliman or Calgar might be the way to go.

 

That being said, as Idaho and others have attested to, the power of objective secured wins games. It seems to me that it isnt as powerful as it was in 7th, however, due to the heavier emphasis on tabling your opponent and the increase in firepower we are seeing.

 

Now that I know that Killshot works on all of the Predators involved, combined with Chronus and the sheer silly amount of rerolls we can hand out, im starting to think that the Ultramarines might be the tank Chapter of this edition. Iron Hands, while having the nice Strategem for a vehicle a turn, I believe that the UM do it much better. The main downside to tanks is that they do not have the same amount of support characters that vehicles get, and barring Dreadnoughts, no access to Chapter Tactics. Though, i cant see any infantey unit putting out the pain point for point compared to a vehicle.

 

Most of our strategems are designed to work on infantry... but most of our strategems are a solid meh. Perhaps im missing something?

[Stoic Raptor]

ObSec meant more before the Chapter Approved thing basically handed out "Defenders of the Imperium" to every single faction.

[Captain Idaho]

I'll do a break down in the order of the book for us Ultramarines:

 

Relics of the Chapter - a niche depending on your army build. In most games you don't really need more than the 1st free Relic, so I wouldn't use this one. However, some players might want the Sanctic Halo AND a model with The Primarch's Wrath/Teeth of Terra so I appreciate that. A 3rd Relic is very wasteful for just about everyone though. You can use your points for much of the Relic choices. As an example, take a Relic Blade for just 21pts instead of the Teeth of Terra or Burning Blade. Saves a Relic place for the Sanctic Halo.

 

A special mention does go to Primaris Marines. Their characters are shockingly inflexible and there are some decent choices for them in the Relics selection. The Armour Indomintus is one example that makes a Gravis Captain pretty tough with his toughness 5.

 

Linebreaker Bombardment - I think this is utter rubbish. Hitting on a 4+ against most targets, 3+ against large units or 5+ against characters just makes it a waste of a Command Point and 3 Vindicators. Seriously, just fire the 3 Vindicators individually as you'll hit more with S10 and do multiple damage. Skip this.

 

I've edited this to explain that I can see some circumstances where can work, namely against a heavily clumped up army. However, characters aside there are seldom going to be more than like 2 units next to each other like that. I'd still skip it unless you find the perfect shot and are taking 3 Vindicators anyway. Which you won't be.

 

Killshot - If you're taking 3 Predators then this is incredibly powerful. Even just armed with Heavy Bolters you'll see massive damage on any large target. I recommend taking some aggressive Dreadnoughts (Contemptors) or Land Raiders to soak up the opponent's attention. Obviously if you aren't using 3 Predators this is worthless, but it does make our armoured forces very powerful. Re-rolls occur before modifiers so consider Lieutenants and Captains (or Dreadnoughts wink wink) as commanders for this fire support element.

 

Take Chronus too. Keeping friends is over rated.

 

Chapter Master - I don't particulary rate this myself since we get re-rolls of 1s for everything from Captains and most of out attacks hit at least on a 3+ anyway. If it was 2 Command Points then I'd consider it but at 3 it's just too much. If you want your Power Fists to hit more often then you need a Chaplain and that won't help with the modifier if you roll a 3. Some people like it but I think most players will miss this one.

 

Scions of Guilliman - Now we're talking! Absolutely amazing. This Stratagem is what enables our "average" Troops choices to perform outstanding. Consider that moving and firing a Grav Cannon is still worthwhile as you'll rerolls 1s and 2s anyway. Plasma weapons love this Stratagem, obviously considering Overcharge.

 

This Stratagem also adds to the flexibility of our Chapter on the table. All of a sudden our Tactical squads no longer need to be babysat with a character.

 

Orbital Bombardment - Uh another wasted opportunity. 3 Command Points for an attack that only hits on a 4+ and does a piddily D3 Mortal Wounds? Pass!

 

Cluster Mines - Actually quite a good little move to use on an opponent. We can shoot after falling back and Scout Bikers are incredibly well armed. At close range shotguns and twin Bolters will make a mess of opponents. You only need 1 survivor in a unit to put D3 on opponents.

 

This Stratagem enables you to shoot a target, receive a charge and overwatch, retreat in your next turn and leave D3 Mortal Wounds in your wake and finally blast your opponent with our Chapter Tactics. Very nice.

 

Masterful Markmanship - I love this Stratagem. It makes Sternguard very dangerous to just about anything. Stick a Captain with the squad and you have an assault force that can cut a target to ribbons in 2 phases. Take Sternguard just for this.

 

Empyric Channelling - If you're taking Librarians in a group this might be good. Options for 7 powers in a turn is powerful. It's a cheap Command Point but it is a specialist army that eschews the rerolls from Captains and Lieutenants. So unlikely we'll make much use of this one.

 

Tome of Malcador is a useful tool here but then you've got 3 Psykers who have all the powers in the Librarius discipline, so I'd skip that Relic in conjunction with this Stratagem.

 

Datalink Telemetry - Quite the niche Stratagem as you need Land Speeders to be where you don't want them. However, if you got the army build and the situation is there, take advantage of this Stratagem.

 

A Land Speeder or 2 with Heavy Flamers can really hurt opponents and then grant your Vengeance Launcher Whirlwind a leg up. Not too shabby but I wouldn't amend my army preference for this Stratagem like I would for Sternguard. Seriously, change your army to include Sternguard.

 

Hellfire Shells - Take a Heavy Bolter in your infantry just for this Stratagem. It's Smite with 36" range and you can choose your target. This is an auto include for just 1 Command Point. Use it.

 

Auspex Scan - 2 Command Points is fair considering that you can use this to ruin your opponent's plans. You can't always expect for a Devastator squad or Centurions to get to fire at the emerging threat but a full Tactical squad or Intercessor squad will still hurt an opponent. Somewhat situational but can rob your opponent of the initiative and conversely worry opponents into deploying further away.

 

Tactical Flexibility - I am struggling to see the point of this. Why wouldn't we just Combat Squad before the game? Sure it could save us a single drop, but really I can't see the point of wasting a Command Point. Take an extra Relic if you have to spend a Command Point. Just don't waste your time on this one.

 

Flakk Missile - The harder the target the better this is. +1 to hit is good but the D3 Mortal Wounds is potentially game breaking. Why? Because we have Hellfire Shells and Librarians who can teleport in Terminator armour that can cast Smite and Psychic Scourge.

 

Aside from that sort of stacking, this is a useful little trick for cheap Command Points. Make sure you have an infantry unit with a missile launcher just like a Heavy Bolter.

 

Armour of Contempt - A great counter to Smite users especially if you attack with a Contemptor Dreadnought or 2 which are often a priority target for opponents. Regardless, this case be a good counter to any time a vehicle you don't want to get too hurt is in the centre of a Mortal Wound barrage.

 

Only In Death Does Duty End - Can be useful if a powerful character has been brought low so you can hit an an opponent with close combat attacks again. Consider options like a character with a single wound acting as a speed bump that is charged and goes down swinging or a character you charge in with that attacks, dies, then attacks again.

 

Shooting is an option. Either when you are shot down or just because your character has better shooting than attacks. Overcharging isn't so risky when your model is already dead!

 

Expensive Command Point expenditure but could be worthwhile. Don't use it if you're not going to get a decent benefit from it, for example a Captain with Teeth of Terra kills 4 members of an Ork Nob Mob leaving 1 left. You can shoot him dead next turn easily enough so don't waste your Command Points.

 

Honour The Chapter - Very expensive and since we're hitting opponents with Hellfire Shells, Masterful Marksmanship and Scions of Guilliman and the like, we won't really have the Command Points spare. However, if we have a Terminator squad multi charging something dangerous with a Dreadnought and the Dreadnought copped it instead, you could lay the smack down.

 

Situational and not something to plan your army around, but if you get the opportunity it might be something you want to use.

 

An additional idea has come to me... consolidate into another unit then attack it again at the end of the Fight phase. A way of rolling up a gunline or a unit that would otherwise flee in the following turn. Potentially very annoying for a player who relies on Flying units.

 

Wisdom of the Ancients - A very nice way of promoting a Dreadnought to a Captain for the turn. It'll enable a Dreadnought to enhance a Lieutenant lead support cluster. Cheap and powerful. Makes a Redemptor much more powerful and useful.

 

Death to the Traitors! - Only useful against Chaos Marines. If you need to make a counter charge against them you can hit them hard. Veterans of all stripes can use this Stratagem and cause a headache to opponents. I imagine even Death Guard will be frustrated by a squad that hits them with extra attacks, especially high strength ones. A way to heighten your killing potential particularly against things like Chaos Terminators that might otherwise weather your attacks to strike back. Killing those Berzerkers before they strike is good too.

 

All for just a single Command Point!

 

Tremor Shells - If there's still a player out there who takes Thunderfire Cannon, then I guess this could help. Might buy your army a turn but let's he honest... who is going to take a Thunderfire Cannon?

Edited September 19, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[greatcrusade08]

I really like datalink for a scout led army. ive been looking at ways to squeeze the big detachment in at 2k (probably not possible), one of my ideas was to invest in 3 small heavy support and elite units and whirlwinds was on the docket as themed. ofc a small sternguard unit as 10th co command squad is always doable too

 

on the relics, we definitely get one free? I was wondering when I read the dex about that.. teeth of terra is an awesome weapon

 

edit: datalink used before whirlwind fires, so technically you have a 14" speeder move and 12" datalink range, should be easy to pull off

Edited September 15, 2017 by greatcrusade08

[Captain Idaho]

Oh it's not about how the Land Speeder gets within range but whether you want your fragile fire support unit up close to the enemy.

 

Obvious exception is the Land Speeder Storm. Again, niche but very viable.

[greatcrusade08]

I enjoy niche

[garreth]

Tremor Shells - If there's still a player out there who takes Thunderfire Cannon, then I guess this could help. Might buy your army a turn but let's he honest... who is going to take a Thunderfire Cannon?

I'm going ;-) 4d3 s5 ap-1 is solid to me. And cheap techmarine.

[Captain Idaho]

You have to pay for the Techmarine though?

 

Either way, it's not a TERRIBLE unit. It's just that it's competing with much better units. A Devastator squad is cheaper armed with Heavy Bolters, does more damage through more shots, has a Signum to boost 1 weapon and the Armourium Cherub too. It can be made more survivable by adding bodies which adds slightly to close ranged firepower.

 

Lastly the Devastator squad can split fire effectively.

 

I get you might like the model which is a fair enough reason to take a Thunderfire Cannon but frankly it is totally outclassed.