Codex Ultramar - what would we like to see

[Captain Idaho]

*Caveat* If you don't like Ultramarines or feel Ultramar should have it's own supppement/Codex then this topic is not for you. Don't post if you are not happy about the concept. This is part wish listing, part home grown rules.

 

Following the (surprising?) victory on Konor and the surrounding system, my brain started rolling...

 

What would we like to see in a Codex Ultramar and how should such a Codex be formatted and balanced?

 

I was thinking that a Codex Ultramar would have to have a new set of Stratagems that replace all Codex specific Stratagems unless specified otherwise, since the Codex could very well have units together from the wider Imperium in a single Detachment.

 

Sure, Armies of the Imperium is a thing now but to benefit from Chapter Tactics and other faction specific special rules they have to be wholly in a single Detachment.

 

This Codex should be about exhibiting the make up of Ultramar.

 

To get the ball rolling, what do we consider is the likely make up of the armies of Ultramar that is practical on the table? (I have some ideas on how that can be implemented using the tried and tested technique of buying an HQ that grants X troops from that faction)

 

Personally I think the core would be Space Marines from Guilliman's stock, Mortal troops representing the Auxiliary troops and possibly the Adeptus Mechanicus from Konor since we did just win a big campaign.

 

The Mortal troops should be based on the Astra Millitarum but with some options for carapace armour (grenadiers), perhaps Ultramar specific combinations of weapons to reflect Guilliman's influence on technological innovation (i.e. none otherwise) and severe limitations.

 

Maybe just use Tempestus Scions to represent a higher technological standard?

 

Forge World units I'm fairly unsure of really.

 

I'm worried about making it all too powerful really. Cherry picking the best of everything is something I do not like at all... what possible solutions do people suggest?

[Kinstryfe]

Honestly, I can't really think of anything that wouldn't A) be fairly redundant with the current system or B) just effectively be trying to form a stronger Imperial Soup, with the best of all rules. You could already create this exact army with multiple detachments from the Ultramarines, Astra Militarum, and Ad Mech lists. At the most, I'd imagine there would be some unique strategems for Astra Militarum and Ad Mech (which we're likely to see soon with their own codexes), anda handful of new relics.

 

I feel any Astra Militarum units would likely be standard, with maybe a special character or two from the 500 Worlds, same with the Ad Mech. Given Cawl's new weapons aren't even available to regular Astartes, I can't see him outfitting PDF and Guard with them.

 

I can't think of any Ultramarines unique units I've ever read about aside from maybe the Honour Company from mixed contributions from successor chapters. Maybe a sort of mixed sternguard/vanguard veteran unit, kind of like power armored wolf guard units.

 

It's at this point in my post that I get an idea and start to outline it :-D

 

The only way I could see this playing like a truly unique army (and ironically like the old Renegades and Heretics list from the Black Crusade book) would be with less emphasis on Astartes outside of the command elements. Limit guard units to Maccrage AM (Scions) and Planetary Defense Forces (Guardsmen). No Conscripts, rough riders, or other units that may not make sense, creating a smaller than normal list of human infantry. Make each unit of Guardsmen or Scions upgrade their Sergeant to an Astartes leader. I could even see a close combat Guardsmen squad as an option, mirroring the Tactical (Guardsmen) Devastator (weapon teams) and Assault (maybe cc oriented Scions) makeup of an active Marine company. Have the Regimental Leader be approximately an Astartes Lieutenant, with Veteran Sergeants taken 1-3 per HQ slot acting as platoon leaders, complete with the option to issue orders as AM officers can. Perhaps remove Commissars, since if an eight foot tall superhuman isn't going to keep you from running, what will? Allow RH1N0s and possibly Land Raiders to be taken as troop transports, and possibly allow certain other Astartes tanks with BS4+ to represent the human crew. Essentially, closer to the old Imperial Army tactics than modern Astra Militarum tactics.

 

Really limit Astartes presence, but make it critical to how the army operates. Allow a 5 man combat squad to accompany the Lieutenant or a Veteran Sergeant. Maybe even a rule to show how shaken humans would be if they see an Astartes taken down, where if not within some distance of an Astartes they need to pass a leadership test or they can only target the closest enemy target, almost like synapse with Tyranids. I'm basically imagining a well equipped group of Scions, several PDF squads and heavy weapon teams, backed up by mixed armour, with a dozen or so Marines spread out among their ranks issuing commands and directing fire.

 

That I could get behind. I think anything else will likely feel like a typical imperial soup setup unless someone has a really great idea in how to differentiate it.

[Frater Cornelius]

Oh boy, where to start. I want to see some unique UM units, like the Invictarii, Fulemntarii and Locutarii from the Heresy, special ranks like Tetrachs, and a better integration of Primaris, which also means Primaris special units and named characters. I'd love rules for a named and generic Primaris Tetrach. I'd also like the combat doctrine of UM explored on a deeper level with more army rules instead of just doctrines. So much more comes to mind. Literally anything would be more characterful and interesting than what we have now Oo

But I should stop now. I am already frustrated enough as it is, to a point where I laid down the minis for a while. UM will never have their own publication, because C:SM is their book. They are the generic starting point, so they will never receive the BA/DA/SW treatment. They will never be what I wish them to be.

Great, now I am grumpy again

Edited September 22, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

Interesting points to ponder.

 

2nd edition, before Codex Imperial Guard, had Tactical, Assault and Devastator Imperial Guard... that's interesting. Good point to explore.

 

I agree totally with limiting what can be taken. I wound also add that the mortal troops need a handicap if their Space Marines die to represent their resolve being tied to their Adeptus Astartes inspiration.

 

Any PDF unit should use the highest Ld of a Space Marine infantry or Dreadnought unit within 6". That's easy enough. However, if an infantry or Dreadnought unit is destroyed within 6" of said PDF unit should lose D3 models on a D6 test of a 1.

 

I'm formulating a plan and will put it up for consumption. Suffice to say it won't use things like the Order system but something different.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Irbis]

How about not try to reinvent the wheel and just go with very similar army - Tyrant's Legion, except with loyalist bent? It was in one of Badab War books, it's basically Badab PDF (equivalent of conscripts with unique options), armsmen (IG veterans), mercenaries (who could be represented with say Sister or Mechanicum unit), with a sprinkling of lieutenant level SM commanders, some assault SM units, and a few tanks. I really liked the idea, pity it died among mess that was 6th/7th edition, as it couldn't compete with overpowered garbage back then. As a theme, it sounds very similar to what Ultramar force would look like, though with some swaps to replace TL grimdark with UM noblebright...

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, during the Heresy they have been known for their Logos Lectora, a combined arms army consisting of SM Legions and mortal auxiliary. Maybe include that? Though I wonder how hard this would break the game when IG units have synergy with UM skills buffs.

I think it may go overboard though in terms of bloat. Maybe just a special army rule that allows more convenient inclusion of IG units? Something like this: Logos Lectora: <Astra Militarum> units taken in an Auxiliary Detachment do not cost a Command Point. This would go a long way to encouraging mixing those dudes in.

[Captain Idaho]

How about not try to reinvent the wheel and just go with very similar army - Tyrant's Legion, except with loyalist bent? It was in one of Badab War books, it's basically Badab PDF (equivalent of conscripts with unique options), armsmen (IG veterans), mercenaries (who could be represented with say Sister or Mechanicum unit), with a sprinkling of lieutenant level SM commanders, some assault SM units, and a few tanks. I really liked the idea, pity it died among mess that was 6th/7th edition, as it couldn't compete with overpowered garbage back then. As a theme, it sounds very similar to what Ultramar force would look like, though with some swaps to replace TL grimdark with UM noblebright...

Unfortunately I don't have access to that information :(

[Frater Cornelius]

We do not know if they want to publish addons to certain armies like they did in 7th through all their warzone books. The book that had UM in it was a good step in the right direction. Getting something unique in the form of the Victrix Guard and the big detachment was really awesome, despite them all being unplayable.

[Welf1984]

My thoughts: I think the Imperial Guard has a narrower role if they work with Ultramarines. They don't need to be good in assaults or mobile warfare. They would rather be occupation forces or hold the line against enemy advances. Also do sieges, since that is a boring job that ties down armies, while you want your marines to be in battle as much as possible and break pivotal enemy resistance. So I think an Macragge Guard army will focus on infantry, transport, and siege equipment. But no heavy tanks like Baneblades since that would be rather the Marine's domain. Plus the top industrial output will go to the chapters anyway.

My suggestions: The <Astra Militarium> keyword gets replaced with <Macragge>. Except Conscripts and Baneblades.

For cultural reasons I don't see commissars or priests in such a force, neither conscripts.

 

For the space Marines, I suggest their <chapter> abilities also apply to <Macragge> units. But I am not sure how powerful that would be. Techmarines could repair Hydras, Infantry squads could reroll to-hit rolls near a chapter master. Maybe make that a CP point stratagem?

[Irbis]

 

Unfortunately I don't have access to that information

 

Um, you know Forge World released free summary containing 95% of their rules here? For free? It lacks fluff but the names/profiles should give pretty good idea what the units are.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Tyrants_Legion_Army_List_Update.pdf

 

Yes, it's last edition rules, but all you need to do is replace WS/BS3 with 4+ to hit, WS/BS4 with 3+ to hit, take wargear costs from C:SM and you have an idea how it would work now...

[StraightSilver]

My thoughts: I think the Imperial Guard has a narrower role if they work with Ultramarines. They don't need to be good in assaults or mobile warfare. They would rather be occupation forces or hold the line against enemy advances. Also do sieges, since that is a boring job that ties down armies, while you want your marines to be in battle as much as possible and break pivotal enemy resistance. So I think an Macragge Guard army will focus on infantry, transport, and siege equipment. But no heavy tanks like Baneblades since that would be rather the Marine's domain. Plus the top industrial output will go to the chapters anyway.

My suggestions: The <Astra Militarium> keyword gets replaced with <Macragge>. Except Conscripts and Baneblades.

For cultural reasons I don't see commissars or priests in such a force, neither conscripts.

 

For the space Marines, I suggest their <chapter> abilities also apply to <Macragge> units. But I am not sure how powerful that would be. Techmarines could repair Hydras, Infantry squads could reroll to-hit rolls near a chapter master. Maybe make that a CP point stratagem?

This is also pretty much my take on Macragge PDF. No conscripts, no priests or commissars (although I do run a "chaplain" alternative), no ab-humans and lots of mobile infantry. I have a Macragge PDF army attached to my 2nd Co Ultras so all of mine are mounted in Chimeras as a rapid strike force. I also use scout bikes as counts as rough riders.

[Wintermane]

Personally the first thing I would like to see now the events of Dark Imperium and the Fate of Konor are complete is a org chart of how the Ultras and their successors are distributed. And what Chapters are on what planets. TO include what Master is in charge of what Chapter. Just to have a good foundation understanding of the lay out.

[Felix Antipodes]

My first thought on seeing the thread title was you were talking about the layout of an actual Codex Ultramar along the lines of a C:SM supplement lol.

 

And I'd really, really like to see one!

[Welf1984]

A few more things:

 

*Caveat* If you don't like Ultramarines or feel Ultramar should have it's own supppement/Codex then this topic is not for you. Don't post if you are not happy about the concept. This is part wish listing, part home grown rules.

 

Huh, why the trigger warning? I thought this already was a safe space for Ultramarines players? ;)

 

What would we like to see in a Codex Ultramar and how should such a Codex be formatted and balanced?

I was thinking that a Codex Ultramar would have to have a new set of Stratagems that replace all Codex specific Stratagems unless specified otherwise, since the Codex could very well have units together from the wider Imperium in a single Detachment.

Sure, Armies of the Imperium is a thing now but to benefit from Chapter Tactics and other faction specific special rules they have to be wholly in a single Detachment.

This Codex should be about exhibiting the make up of Ultramar.

 

 

I'd like to see a Codex Ultramarines, with focus on Ultramar.

Maybe half Fluff, half rules?

Fluff:

-How does life in Ultramar look like

-Neighbours and enemies

-History of Ultramar and its battles (for different campaign scenarios)

*After the heresy (for 30K scenarios)

*During the War of the Beast (against ork players)

*Interregnum (against other Imperial factions)

*Tyranid Invasion

*Wars against the Tau

-Different successor chapters

*Including special characters (and suggestions to kit them out without necessarily special rules)

*And the occasional hint at traitor successors, love them

-PDF and Imperial Guard history

-Knighly Houses

-Forge worlds

-Ultramarine chapters outside of Ultramar (and their relations to the brother chapters, and Guard, AdMech, ...)

-Chapters that went traitor

 

 

I have no idea on new stratagems. The one Ultramarine specific, Scions of Guilliman, is pretty pivotal because it frees Ultramarines from always having to use Guilliman.

 

 

To get the ball rolling, what do we consider is the likely make up of the armies of Ultramar that is practical on the table? (I have some ideas on how that can be implemented using the tried and tested technique of buying an HQ that grants X troops from that faction)

Personally I think the core would be Space Marines from Guilliman's stock, Mortal troops representing the Auxiliary troops and possibly the Adeptus Mechanicus from Konor since we did just win a big campaign.

The Mortal troops should be based on the Astra Millitarum but with some options for carapace armour (grenadiers), perhaps Ultramar specific combinations of weapons to reflect Guilliman's influence on technological innovation (i.e. none otherwise) and severe limitations.

Maybe just use Tempestus Scions to represent a higher technological standard?

Forge World units I'm fairly unsure of really.

 

On make up of the armies, see above. In a detachment I'd expect to find Guard in the troops and heavy support detachment, and AdMech in Elites and maybe skitarii in troops.

For balance, maybe if a detachment has troops from different factions, but also a HQ from each, it can sue the stratagems for all of them? Then you can use Scions of Guilliman on imperial Guard infantry and bikers.

[Captain Idaho]

I'll post up some of my initial ideas tomorrow. For review by my peers.

[The Pounder]

This is pretty much the inspiration for my force at the moment.

I run Primaris Ultramarines mixed with Death Korps of Krieg.

It started as a Krieg exclusive army but then I read Warriors of Ultramar.

I was working out which Ultramarines units to add then 8th hit and along came the Primaris.

The Imperium key word is an absolute God (Emperor) send for themed forces like this.

Currently I'm using the Krieg to hold the line while my Primaris advance or deep strike.

It's very fun to play with. It's not completely overpowered but can hit hard.

Aesthetically it looks great with the tiny Krieg being dwarfed by the mighty Primaris.

Though I will say I need to add a couple of Repulors to give the Primaris more mobility.

[Captain Idaho]

Army Special Rules

 

Space Marines: Any units of Adeptus Astartes in the army must have the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, whether they are Successor Chapters or the direct descendants of the original 13th Legion themselves. In addition they have the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule.

 

Ultramar Defence Force and Praecental Guard: These units have replace the Astra Millitarum and Millitarum Tempestus Keywords with the Ultramar Defence Keyword. They benefit from the Liege Lords and Interlocking Tactics special rules but lose the Voice of Command special rule.

 

• Liege Lords: A unit with this special rule can use the Leadership of any friendly Space Marine infantry or Dreadnought units with the Ultramarines keyword within 6” and can reroll failed Morale tests.

 

However, if a friendly Ultramarines infantry or Dreadnought unit is destroyed within 6” roll a D6 for this unit – on result of a 1, D3 models flee and are removed immediately.

 

• Interlocking Tactics: Any unit with this special rule that shoots at an enemy unit that has already been hit by an infantry or Dreadnought unit with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic this phase can reroll failed hit rolls of a 1.

 

Army Composition

 

Armies of Ultramar are composed from an eclectic mix of fighting men of the whole sub-sector. Depending on the location or severity of the conflict, a force from Ultramar can be made up with just local Ultramar Defence regiments, a Space Marines strike force, an armoured push from the Ultramar Grenadier regiments, or any mix of these elements. To represent this, an Ultramar army is selected using the data sheets listed below:

 

Adeptus Astartes – all datasheets available to the Ultramarines.

 

Ultramar Defence Force – the following datasheets found in Codex Astra Millitarum:

 

• Company Commander

• Master of Ordnance

• Command squad

• Infantry squad

• Special Weapons squad

• Heavy Weapons squad

• Scout Sentinels

• Armoured Sentinels

• Chimera

• Hellhounds

• Basilisks

• Hydras

• Leman Russ Battle Tanks

• Baneblade

 

Praecental Guard – All Millitarum Tempestus datasheets.

 

In addition, there are further restrictions when creating an Ultramar army. Units with the Adeptus Astartes keyword can be chosen as normal using the detachment rules. However, an Ultramar army must adhere to the following:

 

• Take a single HQ choice from the Ultramar Defence Force list for every 3 non-HQ infantry units or 1 vehicle unit you want to take in the army.

• Take a single HQ choice from the Praecental Guard list for every 2 non-HQ units with the infantry keyword or 1 unit with the vehicle keyword you want to take in the army.

 

Note dedicated transports do not count towards these restrictions.

[Captain Idaho]

Excuse the above formatting but it's difficult to transfer to my phone :)

 

Anyway, what I was thinking is Guilliman had reformed the Praecental Guard and further expanded their role as elite troops around Ultramar (in line with his other amendments) and tried to get across how necessary the chain of command was.

 

What do people think as a starting point?

[Kinstryfe]

IMHO, there's effectively no drawback to a mixed list like that. It's all Ultramarines units, the majority of common guard units, and all tempestus units, letting the guard get buffed by marine leadership and shooting. Losing conventional orders hurts slightly, but it's more than made up in the special rules. I'm certainly not saying it's a bad start, not at all. But when designing theoretical rules, I always find it best to shoot for underpowering and more restrictive, rather than less.

 

Maybe a rule like "Line Officer's Duty: Leading the Ultramar Defense Forces is looked upon as child's play compared to commanding a force or fast moving Astartes and is left as an exercise for younger or less experienced officers. You may not take (or limit to one choice per army) Terminators of any type, Sternguard, or Vanguard squads, Contemptor or Venerable Dreadnaughts. Additionally you may never upgrade a Company Commander to a Chapter Master." Something like that would remove the potential for abuse with elite Ultras with tons of cannon fodder, and would instead create an army focused on regular Astartes and guard. Not the only possible direction, but I think the idea could benefit from some tightening and restrictions to remove the feel of everything and the kitchen sink being usable.

 

That said, I like both of the rules you came up with and find them very characterful.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes I certainly don't like building pure overpowered rules. It's all about the fluff.

 

What about further restrictions of the Ultramarines too? They'd likely not be assigned to mortal troops without their own leadership element, so perhaps they should have the same army list restrictions as the Praecental Guard?

 

I don't want to limit the Ultramarines too much seeing as their strike forces and Tetrachs are there in Ultramar. But I'm now worried about the power of the mortal troops; do you really think they are too buffed?

 

Naturally the Stratagems used by the army would be specific and not just all of them from 2 Codex books.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Frater Cornelius]

Why not take 30k for further inspiration and give them some FOC restrictions like at the very least X UM Troop choices and a limited amount of Elite choices. There needs to be a differentiation between Logos Lectora lists and elite mono-SM strike forces.

[Kinstryfe]

I'd say it would make the most sense for Ultramarines to have access to Commanders, Lieutenants, and mayyybe librarians for HQ. I don't see chaplains tagging along. Maybe an apothecary. If Marines are supporting their guard elements, I don't see the most elite forces being sent, as terminators and very elite troops are going to be best deployed toward elite actions. You have to figure the PDF forces are going to be where they need to be, which is usually where Marines would be nice, but not essential, otherwise the Marines would be where it's essential. I also don't see an HQ "tax" as necessarily being a big effect, as AM HQs are cheap, and you'd likely just end up with a bunch of 35pt plasma pistol bearers running behind troops to take potshots. Sorry I'm kinda typing stream of thought, but I'd do something like this. I also left out primaris stuff, but it's easy to figure what equivalents are.

 

Astartes data sheets:

Captain (cannot be upgraded to Chapter Master)

Lieutenant (2 per slot as normal)

0-1 Librarian

Apothecary

Tactical Squad

Scout Squad

Company Veterans - 1-5/slot. Rule: "Lead by Example: Each Company Veteran must be assigned to an Ultramar Defense Force infantry squad before the game starts. It is treated as a member of this squad for all purposes and may not leave it. The Defense Force unit will use the Leadership value of the Veteran and gains the ATSKNF special rule. Unitsby a Company Veteran may ignore Leige Lords tests for destroyed nearby Ultramarines units."

Servitors

Dreadnaught

Ironclad Dreadnaught

Bike Squad

Attack Bike Squad

Assault Squad

Landspeeders

Scout Bike Squad

Devastator Squad

Pretty much all the Tanks

 

I agree with what's there for the AM and TS lists.

 

Instead of an HQ tax, maybe something like

"Planetary Defense Force: in each detachment taken in a battleforged army, at least half of the units (rounding up) must have the Ultramar Defence keyword."

 

I do like the two rules you made, but would maybe flip Interlocking Tactics to be:

Interlocking Tactics: Any unit with this special rule that shoots at an enemy unit that has already been hit by an Ultramar Defense unit this phase can reroll failed hit rolls of a 1.

In my mind, you're likely to have more Guardsmen than marines, and this encourages you to keep a more even mix. Instead of your single Ultra Character hitting a unit and then tons of Guardsmen shooting more accurately, you're letting your more elite units shoot more effectively thanks to flashlights pinging the target and confirming targeting. Alternately, keep it as it is originally but make it a strategum instead of a constant rule. That would be pretty cool, one Marine unit shoots, pop a cp, then everything else lays on fire.

 

Just some opinions and ideas. Overall, it would ensure half the army (unit wise) is effectively guard or Scions, while up to half can be marines. It promotes mixing units in together with LD buffs, and not just using the guard as meat shields. I do think that you may want to rethink orders, as they are a big part of what guard do, but I don't necessarily think they need any big "always on" doctrines, as you're effectively running LD8/9 guard, and being able to mix in marines for a little punch changes the dynamic of how they will play a great deal already. Orders also give you a reason/choice to make to take company commanders. You can get a cheap HQ to issue orders, or a buffed marine Hq. Otherwise, something approximating orders that isn't too powerful may be good, something like one unit of Ultramar Defense infantry within 6" of a Commander or Lieutenant can reroll all missed hits each shooting phase. Ooh or maybe go back to the old heresy fluff where Marines tended to push humans too hard and give them a few orders that are better than normal guard orders, but only work on a 3+ or something. Lots of ways to go.

 

Well, I hope my mad ramblings help, or at least contain some ideas worth stealing.

[Captain Idaho]

That's a good point. It differentiates between a traditional strike force (Codex Space Marines) and operating in Ultramar (as a garrison or support force to mortal troops)

 

On the subject of the rules for mortals... having seen what GW has done with the Orders and Regiment rules I don't think there is even a hint of overpoweredness in my rules above lol!

[Frater Cornelius]

Part of me hopes to never see an Um book dedicated solely to Logos Lectora. I prefer UM as pure-SM elite strike forces for hardcore tasks when it comes to me playing them. I also terribly dislike playing IG. I hope that if C:UM is going to be a thing, there would be something for Logos fan and something for purists as well.

[stuanor]

 As Frater Cornelius said, It would be great to add some new flavour  to the Ultramarine and successor lists.  The Victrix Guard should be either fleshed out properly as proper honour squad with a new minature range or lets not beat around the bush, bring them in properly as a unit replacing the HH figures, the Invictarus Suzerain squad. The tetrachy are back and the Tetarchs need a proper honour guard, I would love a new primaris honour guard with storm shields (with hand weapons attached) and the other arm carrying a melee weapon. And yes, would love re-imagining of the  Fulemntarii and Locutarii. Lets get the band back together, the Tetarchy is back!