Panzer Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I think units like Daemon Primarchs work better in larger games where you have like two Greater Daemons alongside them so the opponent has to decide on which big scary monster he wants to focus on first. 2k games are just too restricted to include other similar big things into a list without gimping the whole army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhhdan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I think units like Daemon Primarchs work better in larger games where you have like two Greater Daemons alongside them so the opponent has to decide on which big scary monster he wants to focus on first. 2k games are just too restricted to include other similar big things into a list without gimping the whole army. well, wif you had 2 lords of change and magnus, everyone would still shoot at magnus first. There is nop choice, they just don't do enough to justify killing them before magnus. It might be more of a choice only with bloodthirsters, as they can actually do a lot of damage if not killed first. Alternative is bash bros (magnus + mortarion). But a lot of builds out there can delete both of them turn 1, so it might be better taking no primarchs sadly... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeresyBeliever Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 well, wif you had 2 lords of change and magnus, everyone would still shoot at magnus first. There is nop choice, they just don't do enough to justify killing them before magnus. It might be more of a choice only with bloodthirsters, as they can actually do a lot of damage if not killed first. Alternative is bash bros (magnus + mortarion). But a lot of builds out there can delete both of them turn 1, so it might be better taking no primarchs sadly... You are correct there is a lot of armies (tournament style) which can destroy big things with ease. These lists really suffer against hordes but most games for these style of lists have a set time limit and real horde armies take to long to move etc. I play orks as well as chaos and having 200 + ork boys in a 2000 pts list is great but you need more that 2 hours for a proper game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I have 130ish models in my TS/AL/Daemon list, I movement trays are key for hordes! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhhdan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 well, wif you had 2 lords of change and magnus, everyone would still shoot at magnus first. There is nop choice, they just don't do enough to justify killing them before magnus. It might be more of a choice only with bloodthirsters, as they can actually do a lot of damage if not killed first. Alternative is bash bros (magnus + mortarion). But a lot of builds out there can delete both of them turn 1, so it might be better taking no primarchs sadly... You are correct there is a lot of armies (tournament style) which can destroy big things with ease. These lists really suffer against hordes but most games for these style of lists have a set time limit and real horde armies take to long to move etc. I play orks as well as chaos and having 200 + ork boys in a 2000 pts list is great but you need more that 2 hours for a proper game. A friend of mine runs a stormboy list. About 150-160 storm boys with 2 meks, 2 painboys and 2 warbosses (1 FW special character warboss) all on bikes. He can get anywhere on turn 2 and the games usually don't last more than 3 turns and not because of the time limit. But rather because either the opponent has been tabled (or nearly tabled) or the opponent had enough shots to nearly table him (multiple punisher leman russes, dakka flyrant/dakka carnifex list, etc.) So yeah, horde armies can be played fast, but to do that, one really needs to be efficient with all movements and decision making. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoGuy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 A friend of mine runs a stormboy list. About 150-160 storm boys with 2 meks, 2 painboys and 2 warbosses (1 FW special character warboss) all on bikes. Sounds a lot like "that guy". How much fun is it to play against such a list/opponent? The first time he brings that to a table, sure, why not. But it gets old real fast. I think when people here talk about horde armies they have something on their mind like 80+ Horma/Termagants backed up by Carnifexes and artillery. You know, a somewhat balanced list and not just an army that revolves around "how much can I buff my blobs and shove them down my opponent's throat?". With the release of the Daemon Codex I actually am a bit worried about Nurgle players just running huge blobs of Plaguebearers, supportet with with their Heralds and one or two GUOs. The Bearers can now chuck out a huge amount of S5 attacks and get buffs to-wound and to-hit etc. They are hard to shift with their -1 to hit (if >20 models) and all the psychic stuff that is available to them. I have no problem with one or two big units of them with supporting characters. But I tend to enjoy playing against a balanced mix of units or TAC lists instead of gimmicky lists that focus on a single type of unit and try to buff the hell out of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 A friend of mine runs a stormboy list. About 150-160 storm boys with 2 meks, 2 painboys and 2 warbosses (1 FW special character warboss) all on bikes. Sounds a lot like "that guy". How much fun is it to play against such a list/opponent? The first time he brings that to a table, sure, why not. But it gets old real fast. I think when people here talk about horde armies they have something on their mind like 80+ Horma/Termagants backed up by Carnifexes and artillery. You know, a somewhat balanced list and not just an army that revolves around "how much can I buff my blobs and shove them down my opponent's throat?". With the release of the Daemon Codex I actually am a bit worried about Nurgle players just running huge blobs of Plaguebearers, supportet with with their Heralds and one or two GUOs. The Bearers can now chuck out a huge amount of S5 attacks and get buffs to-wound and to-hit etc. They are hard to shift with their -1 to hit (if >20 models) and all the psychic stuff that is available to them. I have no problem with one or two big units of them with supporting characters. But I tend to enjoy playing against a balanced mix of units or TAC lists instead of gimmicky lists that focus on a single type of unit and try to buff the hell out of it. A strong list doesn't make you "that guy". Being a dick makes you "that guy". I think it's a very cool list. A bit monotone but still cool. Better than any static gunline for sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhhdan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 A friend of mine runs a stormboy list. About 150-160 storm boys with 2 meks, 2 painboys and 2 warbosses (1 FW special character warboss) all on bikes. Sounds a lot like "that guy". How much fun is it to play against such a list/opponent? The first time he brings that to a table, sure, why not. But it gets old real fast. I think when people here talk about horde armies they have something on their mind like 80+ Horma/Termagants backed up by Carnifexes and artillery. You know, a somewhat balanced list and not just an army that revolves around "how much can I buff my blobs and shove them down my opponent's throat?". With the release of the Daemon Codex I actually am a bit worried about Nurgle players just running huge blobs of Plaguebearers, supportet with with their Heralds and one or two GUOs. The Bearers can now chuck out a huge amount of S5 attacks and get buffs to-wound and to-hit etc. They are hard to shift with their -1 to hit (if >20 models) and all the psychic stuff that is available to them. I have no problem with one or two big units of them with supporting characters. But I tend to enjoy playing against a balanced mix of units or TAC lists instead of gimmicky lists that focus on a single type of unit and try to buff the hell out of it. Well, that's purely a tournament list. I was mostly talking about tournament lists since I mentioned Magnus/mortarion being deleted in turn 1. Also, daemons can probably do even nastier horse armies with the new codex. E.g. 2-3 buffed blobs of plaguebearers, 2x30 bloodletters deep striking and charging 3D6" with reroll and +1" to charge. Add to this exalted flamers and pink horrors or something else to kill tanks and chaff from range... There would be no spare command points, but the list would be very hard to counter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhhdan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 A friend of mine runs a stormboy list. About 150-160 storm boys with 2 meks, 2 painboys and 2 warbosses (1 FW special character warboss) all on bikes. Sounds a lot like "that guy". How much fun is it to play against such a list/opponent? The first time he brings that to a table, sure, why not. But it gets old real fast. I think when people here talk about horde armies they have something on their mind like 80+ Horma/Termagants backed up by Carnifexes and artillery. You know, a somewhat balanced list and not just an army that revolves around "how much can I buff my blobs and shove them down my opponent's throat?". With the release of the Daemon Codex I actually am a bit worried about Nurgle players just running huge blobs of Plaguebearers, supportet with with their Heralds and one or two GUOs. The Bearers can now chuck out a huge amount of S5 attacks and get buffs to-wound and to-hit etc. They are hard to shift with their -1 to hit (if >20 models) and all the psychic stuff that is available to them. I have no problem with one or two big units of them with supporting characters. But I tend to enjoy playing against a balanced mix of units or TAC lists instead of gimmicky lists that focus on a single type of unit and try to buff the hell out of it. Also it can actually be very cool to play such a melee heavy horde list, when majority of other lists are either a guard gunline with 5+ leman russes, tyranid quad devourer/exocrine spam or elder dark reaper/wraith guard/shining spears spam or maybe an alpha legion cultist/obliterators/berserker spam Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorin Helm-splitter Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 If you read all the background I just can’t agree. Magnus is beleaguered with an immense amount of guilt and hurt pride. If the gathering of and destructive capacities of the Legion demonstrated towards the end of seventh don’t convince you, nothing will. Is Magnus arrogant? Yes. Has he been found self serving? Yes. But there is every indication that he has come to a cold realization of what really matters. You can dislike Magnus, I wouldn’t deny you that, but he is more involved in his Legion than perhaps most Chaos Primarchs. He is (in my opinion) written terribly for the game. As others have said he matches Angron much better. I’m not asking for Guilliman, but I feel I have a super Tzeentch chicken boss right now and I’m just not a fan. I think that is all true of 30k Magnus, and at least from what I've read*. Its just that isn't the character they describe in Wrath of Magnus and in all fairness a lot of time has passed since then. Whenever he is brought up in the fluff its him destroying something, as a mastermind, or shrugging off an attack. Ahriman gets described as buffing the terminators with him to a crazy degree but when Magnus is involved the sons around him are an afterthought. It basically points out threats and how he solos them. Can they change that... sure, and I won't complain because force multipliers are the best units (and he is a better character in 30k where you see the redeemable features more). *A thousand sons, War of the fang, Magnus the Red, and few other HH books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I honestly think that's intended even. Chaos Primarchs being the big scary things that can devastate the most important part of any army on their own without really needing an army at their side while loyalist leader being the more or less mortal guys who inspire and well...lead their army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I suppose, but when Abaddon also gives out a better aura than our primarch, I get a little salty... though to be fair, morty doesn’t really give out a non-warlord trait buff aura either, an awesome debuff though! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I suppose, but when Abaddon also gives out a better aura than our primarch, I get a little salty... though to be fair, morty doesn’t really give out a non-warlord trait buff aura either, an awesome debuff though! That's very true. For me, without repeating my entire post, it's that Magnus definitely feels and works better as a Tzeentch unit then as a Thousand Sons unit. That just burns me. We can go back and forth on if he's a team player, but game play wise I think Tzeentch has enough giant daemon birds, including that goofy forgeworld rainbow turkey from hell. This is what attracts me to Mortarion. He feels like a team (Death Guard) player, BUT the Death Guard codex has ONE redeeming quality when using the Primarch.... a Deathshroud body guard. Does it work? Kind of. It's a bit clunky because it only works once, and the poor guys are out of the game unless you take huge risks, but the point is a mechanism exists that says 'this guy is Death Guard'. Is it really too much to ask that Magnus have such a design? Even the synergy of Mort to Deathguard is superior to Magnus and Thousand Sons in my opinion. The reason I hope they get it right, or even better this time, is I remember the problems we had when the Thousand Sons supplement stuff came out... correcting it after the fact with GW was nearly impossible. I kept on them at their Facebook as well as during live WHTV broadcasts, and they eventually just tuned me out. I think Arch got blocked on Facebook. They may say they're more communicative but I think it's selective. Regardless if there's even a small chance they've read any of this thread and it helped the outcome, I'll take it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4983938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I imagine that his design will BECOME synergistic given the codex. His warlord trait, id expect his auras, and his enhanced spell list to allow for it. I would guess his aura will be more impressive then "re-roll 1's for a couple things" since a BLOODY CHAPTER MASTER can actually have a better aura. Might roll my eyes so hard my retinas detach. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 I would guess his aura will be more impressive then "re-roll 1's for a couple things" since a BLOODY CHAPTER MASTER can actually have a better aura. Might roll my eyes so hard my retinas detach. This is my exact fear. That it will be "FUN" and not really work but they will tell us its great, and the most basic problems which will be rife in the book won't get corrected and it won't really matter because its a niche army with a small player base so GW won't/don't spend a lot of time or effort with it. It like it will be book full of what we got from Chapter Approved or things like the Icon of Flame where you pay a premium for something that will probably do nothing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I would guess his aura will be more impressive then "re-roll 1's for a couple things" since a BLOODY CHAPTER MASTER can actually have a better aura. Might roll my eyes so hard my retinas detach. This is my exact fear. That it will be "FUN" and not really work but they will tell us its great, and the most basic problems which will be rife in the book won't get corrected and it won't really matter because its a niche army with a small player base so GW won't/don't spend a lot of time or effort with it. It like it will be book full of what we got from Chapter Approved or things like the Icon of Flame where you pay a premium for something that will probably do nothing. I dont think so. I havent seen one codex that didnt objectively increase the power of the army it was supposed to effect. every single one got major buffs across the board. They may neglect certain things, but overall we will of course benefit. (not saying there wont be holes or issues) but I dont think it will be the struggle we find it to be now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolchiate Remembrancer Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I would guess his aura will be more impressive then "re-roll 1's for a couple things" since a BLOODY CHAPTER MASTER can actually have a better aura. Might roll my eyes so hard my retinas detach.This is my exact fear. That it will be "FUN" and not really work but they will tell us its great, and the most basic problems which will be rife in the book won't get corrected and it won't really matter because its a niche army with a small player base so GW won't/don't spend a lot of time or effort with it. It like it will be book full of what we got from Chapter Approved or things like the Icon of Flame where you pay a premium for something that will probably do nothing. I dont think so. I havent seen one codex that didnt objectively increase the power of the army it was supposed to effect. every single one got major buffs across the board. They may neglect certain things, but overall we will of course benefit. (not saying there wont be holes or issues) but I dont think it will be the struggle we find it to be now. The BA would beg to differ. And im sure there are others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I would guess his aura will be more impressive then "re-roll 1's for a couple things" since a BLOODY CHAPTER MASTER can actually have a better aura. Might roll my eyes so hard my retinas detach.This is my exact fear. That it will be "FUN" and not really work but they will tell us its great, and the most basic problems which will be rife in the book won't get corrected and it won't really matter because its a niche army with a small player base so GW won't/don't spend a lot of time or effort with it. It like it will be book full of what we got from Chapter Approved or things like the Icon of Flame where you pay a premium for something that will probably do nothing. I dont think so. I havent seen one codex that didnt objectively increase the power of the army it was supposed to effect. every single one got major buffs across the board. They may neglect certain things, but overall we will of course benefit. (not saying there wont be holes or issues) but I dont think it will be the struggle we find it to be now. The BA would beg to differ. And im sure there are others. The BA don't. The Codex made us a lot stronger compared to the Index without question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Seconded.^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 So... The Adeptus Custodes chapter trait has been revealed, it's "+1 to Invulnerable saves". Here goes my hope that we might get it as our Legion trait... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 So... The Adeptus Custodes chapter trait has been revealed, it's "+1 to Invulnerable saves". Here goes my hope that we might get it as our Legion trait... We're getting something like Grey Knights and you know it! ;) I'm sure we'll have psychic manipulations to saves, whereas I imagine Custodes won't have a psychic phase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeinox Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 base 3++ on Ahriman would be sick just for playing him in a TS detachment.. 4++ base on Rubrics in 8th is much more valuable than in 7th.. It would really help the Scarab Occult survive and I would use them a lot more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 So... The Adeptus Custodes chapter trait has been revealed, it's "+1 to Invulnerable saves". Here goes my hope that we might get it as our Legion trait... I'm hoping we'll get this as an aura. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I'm hoping we'll get this as an aura. A stratagem seems more likely (Tzeentch Daemons had it). I do hope though that our Exalted Sorcerer's aura gets changed to "re-roll failed saves of 1" instead of only working on Invulnerable saves. That would actually make him worth it. It may seem OP at first sight, but there are so many crazy things in the game right now that it would just be Ok-ish. Btw, does anyone know at what time (GMT 0) will Warhammer Live be streamed on thursday ? (Custodes vs TS) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhhdan Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I would guess his aura will be more impressive then "re-roll 1's for a couple things" since a BLOODY CHAPTER MASTER can actually have a better aura. Might roll my eyes so hard my retinas detach.This is my exact fear. That it will be "FUN" and not really work but they will tell us its great, and the most basic problems which will be rife in the book won't get corrected and it won't really matter because its a niche army with a small player base so GW won't/don't spend a lot of time or effort with it. It like it will be book full of what we got from Chapter Approved or things like the Icon of Flame where you pay a premium for something that will probably do nothing. I dont think so. I havent seen one codex that didnt objectively increase the power of the army it was supposed to effect. every single one got major buffs across the board. They may neglect certain things, but overall we will of course benefit. (not saying there wont be holes or issues) but I dont think it will be the struggle we find it to be now. The BA would beg to differ. And im sure there are others. Blood Angels are ridiculously strong with certain builds right now (sanguinary guard, death company, mephiston, smash captain, librarian dreadnought, lemartes, sanguinor, scouts, and several other units are all really strong with the new codex). There are some missed opportunities in the codex, namely the terminators and baal predators, but the rest of the codex works really well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/page/26/#findComment-4984663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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