Ascanius Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I can't agree with you on one point, there, but it's a major one. There's exactly one similarity between Imperium Secundus and Imperium Nihilus, and that is "there's a huge, almost impassable warp storm between it and the rest of the Imperium". Otherwise: Imperium Secundus was largely better-off than the rest of the Imperium, governed by a single authority genuinely able to communicate with the disparate parts of its domain Imperium Secundus was held together effectively by the Pharos Imperium Secundus was so controversial an idea that it had to become a secret when it was no longer needed Imperium Secundus was explicitly constituted as its own polity with its own form of government Imperium Nihilus is nothing like that. It's just those Imperial territories which are cut off from the Astronomican, and thus in real bad trouble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I can't agree with you on one point, there, but it's a major one. There's exactly one similarity between Imperium Secundus and Imperium Nihilus, and that is "there's a huge, almost impassable warp storm between it and the rest of the Imperium". Otherwise: Imperium Secundus was largely better-off than the rest of the Imperium, governed by a single authority genuinely able to communicate with the disparate parts of its domain Imperium Secundus was held together effectively by the Pharos Imperium Secundus was so controversial an idea that it had to become a secret when it was no longer needed Imperium Secundus was explicitly constituted as its own polity with its own form of government Imperium Nihilus is nothing like that. It's just those Imperial territories which are cut off from the Astronomican, and thus in real bad trouble. The second empire beyond the warp storm that is ruled by the leader of the Blood Angels. Those are three key things that are being replicated here. In no shape or form did I state that the IN is IS in detail, but that it has similarities. I made sure to say it as I did so there was no confusion. Edit: To clarify even further, what I'm saying is that not only is the Lion going to come back, but when he does comes back there is going to be again a huge amount of antagonism between Gulliman and The Lion to the point of almost going to war, and the deadlock will be broken by another golden armored Primarch.... lets say .....Dorn. Now, whether or not the Lion should be the next to come back, I don't know, but what I saying is that when it comes to non BL novels books, Codexes, ect, there seems to be a push of recreating key aspects from the HH, and I think this is a mistake because it feels very artificially in some regards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I don't agree that those are important similarities, but OK. The main reason I think the Lion should be third is this: It's more interesting if the Lion comes back and his only potential ally "against" Guilliman is . . . Russ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I actually want to see Vulkan, the people's Primarch next. I don't want him back how Guilliman is, as another special character for Ultramarines, I want him as someone leading any and all Imperial armies. I see Vulkan as a protector, and I'm sure in the Beast Arises series he's just been protecting planets. I don't want him as a General, and I don't want him in the SM codex, tbh, I don't know what codex I'd put him in apart from and Imperial Agents one, I want him as a guardian angel for the little people, leading armies of PDF and Arbites in a last ditch defence etc. Honestly, what you described is nothing else than playing a soup army with Vulkan in it. Just do that if you want to, but that's no reason to not have him in the SM Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Edit: To clarify even further, what I'm saying is that not only is the Lion going to come back, but when he does comes back there is going to be again a huge amount of antagonism between Gulliman and The Lion to the point of almost going to war, and the deadlock will be broken by another golden armored Primarch.... lets say .....Dorn. Again, I disagree. Secundus was without the knowledge of the Emperor. Guilliman is now lord protector of the Imperium by the Emperors decree. If Lionel chooses to go against the Emperor's rulings and fight Guilliman, then he'd be a trai...HOLD ON A MINUTE. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0nolith Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Edit: To clarify even further, what I'm saying is that not only is the Lion going to come back, but when he does comes back there is going to be again a huge amount of antagonism between Gulliman and The Lion to the point of almost going to war, and the deadlock will be broken by another golden armored Primarch.... lets say .....Dorn. Again, I disagree. Secundus was without the knowledge of the Emperor. Guilliman is now lord protector of the Imperium by the Emperors decree. If Lionel chooses to go against the Emperor's rulings and fight Guilliman, then he'd be a trai...HOLD ON A MINUTE. Yeah maybe, hell I would love it to be different, but I don't think GW will stray too far from tried tested and true aspects that have worked for them in 30k given what were seeing now in the new lore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyros Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 The Codex Dark Angels has enough "reasons" to bring back the Lion. It has been established that Luther has escaped, that the Fallen are way more than the Dark Angels though, and that probably both (Luther and Fallen) are gathering somewhere in Imperium Nihilus at numbers approaching the old Legions. That's reason enough for a campaign book that "awakes" the Lion from his secret chamber in the Rock. The Codex Space Wolves also has hints that Russ is coming back. "On Fenris and in war zones across the Sea of Stars, Rune Priests receive riddling visions and cryptic visitations. Time and again their casting bones point to the same future. The return of the 13th Great Company, the emergence of Magnus the Red and the awakening of Roboute Guilliman are the last verses of the saga that will culminate in the Wolftime – theprophesied return of Leman Russ. After undertaking a perilous spirit-walk, Njal Stormcaller petitions Logan Grimnar and Ulrik the Slayer to wake Bjorn the Fell- Handed, so that the ancient warrior may grant the High Rune Priest an audience. The request is granted, though what they speak of is kept secret." But neither of those pieces of information can point to which one will return first, assuming GW doesn't surprises us with another loyalist primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrZakalwe Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think the Lion wouldn't be ideal because I think they should go a few steps further with the plot line- have Bobby leads a new crusade with Cawl across the great rift, have the rift flair up and all the elements of the ecclesiarchy etc that had their power diminished by the heathen Bobby revolt and take back that half of the imperium. Basically create two imperial factions, one of which gets primaris and new fancy Cawl stuff while the other gets sisters, saints, priests, and all the traditionalist stuff (with both getting old space marines). Pretty much no new kits required (beyond plastic sisters) and it breaks up the monolithic 'Imperium' faction. The return of another primarch would stop the upsurge of zealotry this requires as they don't really fit the new Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 If I get to choose/vote with my wallet I´d rather see Angron or Fulgrim in 40K. This is based solely on how i FEEL about the 40k universe and my history with the game. The daemon primarchs have been with me all the way since 91 or 92 (or was it 93?) when I fielded them in epic :-D Come on , we all want Fulgrim to seduce us ;-P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I agree Russ will be next simply for the fact that Lionel Johnson doesn't have a 30k model yet. Russ does. GW makes all its decisions based on models. Not lore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher956 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 By that fact .... why not Dorn? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 One reason why I'd like to see the Lion return is to see what kind of model GW will give him compared to Guilliman. Guilliman has a fancy new armour that makes him look way bigger than normally and the sword from big E. Space Wolves have their mutation thing going on and Russ was a long time in the warp so GW could do whatever with him. However the Lion was just chilling in realspace at home the whole time, Dark Angels don't have any mutation thing going on and he doesn't need a fancy armour to keep him alive nor does big E have another weapon on the level of the sword to give away afaik. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher956 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Except who knows whats been going on while he's been 'sleeping' in the rock? What have the watchers been doing to him? They could go back to pre-Crusade style armour on him, after all Calaban had power armour before the crusade turned up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Not "except". They could totally do that if GW wants to give him something special (which I'm sure they want or else they'd just copy any potential 30k model of him). It's just not as obvious as what they could do for Russ. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 We already have a topic for discussing who players think the next (?) primarch will/won't be, so I've merged the topic started yesterday about how it won't/shouldn't be the Lion with the existing topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I don't think Guilliman needs a foil, but someone to share the burdens with - even if their methods are different. The Lion can't challenge his position unless he's actually a heretic, although he can certainly demand a level of authority and some autonomy. It would be interesting to see and read about how the Lion might try to clear out the mess that is the current Imperium, and the inevitable enemies he'll make along the way. As for which one is coming out next? Russ and Lion El Johnson dual set! Lion and the Wolf Would be cool if their friendly fued was renewed, however this time it's the Lion who is more of a hot head then Russ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 The Lion has every right to challenge Guilliman. Any primarch does. No primarch can rule another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Guilliman has been appointed by the Emperor to be his proxy - The Imperial Regent and Lord Protector. There is no one with equal authority save the Emperor himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axineton Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think the Lion will have more important things to sort out with his chapter being the secretive buffoons they really are than challenging the G man to who’s gonna rule the imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 By that fact .... why not Dorn? Because Dorn is dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 for story expansion, I think we might see something like this. Vigulus: - a small contingent of space wolves and admech, along with the un infected pdf are attempting to hold the gateworld for the imperium. - against a insidious genestealer infestation, orks and chaos. Vigilus falls, the marines and admech are forced to evacuate with what few civilians they can, The orks and Black legion continue to duke it out in force of the world. at the end of it, The Orks are the ones who take the gateworld. always looking for a fight, they now have it, everyone wants the world, now the fight comes to them. - this separates the galaxy and the imperiums strength even more. the dark imperium is looking like just that, dark. - unexpected heros arrive to muster the remnant forces - tales of living shadow slaughtering the foes of the imperium - tales of lightnigg that purges the stars -- Khan, Corax and The lion are all in the dark imperium. The rock is being used as a mobile forward operating base for many chapters cut off from there homeworlds, crusades. 40k primarchs - Khan is wiser, than he was. he is still the exceptional fast attack blitzer, but is now more inclined to plan fleet actions - corax doing corax things ( corax also is leading the space sharks, and his og chapter) - lion is the warmaster on the darkimpierum side ------------------ I still think Leman russ is the next primarch. but i dont expect him until, Beast ghaz appears, Abaddon reappears and either fulgrim or angron appear. to make things look exceptionally grim for robby. he's stuck at terra doing logistics, and literally has no time to leave, for if he left the logistics system would disintegrate and then the imperium would fall. and even then the imperium is losing ground every day. robby feels like all hope is lost. when Russ appears, with russ leading the wolves and rallying other imperiums forces, it allows pressure to be relieved from robby. but russ is different than he was, he is now wise, a master of the runes, and a seer, and can pluck the threads of fate. - russ is not a warmaster of the imperium, not a dog or rapib wolf. he is the spear of the imperium. - he will arrive at a point in space that current holds no releveance with his strike force and wait for a single decisive battle to coem to him. and repeat, cutting off the fleets of xenos and traitors before they can reach there destination. robby does logistics lion does the warmaster khan does the fleet admiral Russ does the advising, and cutting off of support lines corax does the wetworks and severes the command structures dorn, dorn does the crusading leading the armies at the forefront Vulkan starts a replacement for the admech cult. (marines + imperial truth+ innovative citizens = inventions and science!) the ghost of ferrus stalks the stars with teh legion of the damned sanguinus is gone, but through the millenia a avatar of sanguius was created Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 By that fact .... why not Dorn? Because Dorn is dead. You know, I want the next Primarch to be Ferrus Manus, just to prove that silly things like ‘longstanding lore’ or ‘being very dead’ won’t stand in the way of GW selling big expensive models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 By that fact .... why not Dorn? Because Dorn is dead. Dorn is missing. It's very ambiguous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I agree Russ will be next simply for the fact that Lionel Johnson doesn't have a 30k model yet. Russ does. GW makes all its decisions based on models. Not lore. ^This. I thought the Lion would be the next Loyalist after Guilliman since El'Jonson is such a wild card...but with Russ not accompanying the SW Codex I have to agree that no 40k version will exist without a 30k version. -Russ won't be for a while since he's going to cause a stir no matter when or how he shows up. His model could be a Coca Cola can and his rules could make him a feeble old man with a walker and breathing tube and people will still lap him up. They want to save that for a time to shake things up/inflate sales (start of new fiscal year in June and/or 9th edition). -Khan: If at all, than later in the pack since I have a sneaky feeling that the Khan will be retconned to die during Siege of Terra (don't want it to happen, but I have a feeling) and also because #diversityfail. Trust me, I don't want it to happen, but established lore is just ambiguous enough and Khan is --not-- Russ so will not make as big of a splash if/whenever he shows up and I can see Black Library sacrificing him just so they can be like "see! We told you we would surprise you!" Also, no 30k model/rules yet. -Dorn: the other one I have a feeling they may say actually died. Even though fans know there's more to him than meets the eye, he suffers the Lorgar/Perturabo conundrum of not being "the red one" or "the psychic one" etc... Morty, Fulgrim, Angron, etc.... all have that edge to them, as do Russ, the Lion, Corax, etc... As such, I feel like GW is not going to prioritize him at all (for shame). I do love the idea of Dreadnought Dorn, however. -Vulkan: fluff-wise has the second most clear-cut case to come back after the Lion, considering the whole Perptual thing. And the same design/marketing departments that gave us Wolfy Wolf Wolves wielding Wolf Blades riding Wolves and Blood Missiles on Blood Cruisers flown by Blood Angels could do a Find + Replace to add "Dragon". -The Lion: going to be last. I hate to say it as I am most intrigued to find out what's up with him, both in 30k and 40k, since when you think about it, he really is one of the least explored characters. Yes, he has appeared in lots of writing, but there's still relatively written about him (not unlike Vulkan to some degree). Considering that he is going to be the last Primarch to get 30k rules/model based on DA getting pushed to Book 9, he's not showing up for a while. But when he does.... Which leaves.... Corax. Yes, that sneaky :cuss coming up when least expected. Of all the Loyalist Primarchs to return, he makes the most sense to be the "solo" one who is less of a buffer and more of a one-man army. Like a Primarch Sly Marbo. And enough of a wild card to be wandering around the Galaxy, seemingly helping out the Imperium, yet unpredictable enough that RG has to expend time, energy, and resources to try to track him and down and reconcile him....if he can be reconciled at all. He's different enough from RG to stand out, yet still not as popular as others so they can afford to take more risks with backstory/model/rules. Fluffwise, I do like the idea of characters changing over 10,000 years: -Russ becomes the wise, cautious one -The Lion becomes the loyal one who seeks consensus above all else -Vulkan becomes the bat - :cuss crazy one. No more Mr. Nice Guy -Dorn: whether in dreadnought or flesh form, he realizes that Sigismund had it right all along and decides to became Big Daddy Templar: all attack, all the time. Walls are so last millennia. -Khan rides bicycles now. More eco-friendly. Dead and should stay dead: Sanguinius (kinda sorta confirmed in a previous interview with Guy Haley ) Ferrus Manus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 whos to say Corax isn't back. he's just in sly marbos shadow striking at people. furhtering the legend of sly marbo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/25/#findComment-5168818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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