CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Zebulon]

So we would have a chapter that sees killing as their duty. They take pride in their craft, but they are not blood thirsty warriors nor senseless butchers. Cold and calculative to the bitter end.

That would to an extent also tie in with the bullfighting theme; while I know that irl it is a controversial thing for many, for the toreadors themselves it is a craft they seek to ‘perfect’ but they do not rejoice in slaughter.

 

I’d like to see horned helmets in a non-chaos context, too.

[Kelborn]

It's too early to throw in brainstorm ideas related to the Taurans, right? ^^

Otherwise, I'd like to share some things, which came into my mind, with you.

[Commissar Molotov]

Hey all,

 

I do agree that we need to be fair to show suggestions for all of our four if possible, or else we run the risk of tunnelling passive readers to a predetermined outcome.

 

Can we salvage either of the other three and think of them in a new light?

 

Part of me thought of the Celebrants' colour scheme as somewhat mimicking a sunrise. Perhaps they see themselves (and/or the Astartes in general) as heralding a new dawn for the Imperium. Perhaps the Chapter was created at a time of resurgence and growth for the Imperium. There could be merit in seeing how the Chapter tries to live up to a brighter dream from a past age.

 

I also thought today of the idea of the Book of Hours that certain religious adherents use. I imagine that the Chapter has a complex and Byzantine calendar of holy days and festivals that they observe as they fight.

[Draakur]

To my own surprise, I ended up going Taurans too. I had a think and decided it felt like we could collectively come to a better place as a group on them over the Celebrants, given the themes at play.

 

Only thing I'm still reserved about is the over-theming. Hopefully enough of us are mindful of this that we won't have anything to worry about.

 

One thought I had was that, if we do decide on the Taurans, and people insist on having an actual bull or bull-like creature on their Homeworld, that we cold go in a slightly different direction to normal. Most totem-animal type Chapters hunt and slay their totem animals... to me this actually makes little sense when looked at from certain angles. Perhaps if the Taurans do get their name from a bull creature on a Homeworld (as discussed, there is now a little more potential for them actually being fleet-based) they could instead treat them as sacrosanct. For X reason they see them as representative of the Emperor, and will go to great lengths to keep them from being interfered with, always observing from afar, maybe taking lessons from their behaviour and the way they live through various stages in their lifecycle, etc etc. Just a thought!

 

Also, love the idea of the Book of Days type situation and the Celebrants' colour scheme symbolising a sunrise and being suggestive of their faith in the dawning of a new age etc, great ideas :)

 

+edit+

Details.

[Zhiv]

Hey all,

 

I do agree that we need to be fair to show suggestions for all of our four if possible, or else we run the risk of tunnelling passive readers to a predetermined outcome.

 

Can we salvage either of the other three and think of them in a new light?

 

Part of me thought of the Celebrants' colour scheme as somewhat mimicking a sunrise. Perhaps they see themselves (and/or the Astartes in general) as heralding a new dawn for the Imperium. Perhaps the Chapter was created at a time of resurgence and growth for the Imperium. There could be merit in seeing how the Chapter tries to live up to a brighter dream from a past age.

 

I don't really disagree with you so.   For me, Celebrants chapter icon (star with wings?) reminded me of this.

 

 

They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright stars on the firmament of battle, Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annihilation to the enemies of Man. So it shall be for a thousand times for a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh.

I instantly thought them as Ultramarine successor that embodies  Codex Astartes.  More noble than grim, more devout than glory-seeking. They are the Emperor's angels that would bring forth the new age for mankind.  

 

Now the questions is... what they are celebrating? 

 

What is the terror of death? That we die with our work incomplete. What is the joy of life? To die knowing our task is done. I stand alongside warriors of honour, and the warrior who acts out of honour cannot fail. His duty is honour itself. Even a warrior's death--if it is honourable--is a reward and can be no failure, for it has come through duty. Seek honour as you act, and you will know no fear.

So perhaps Celebrants celebrate (take joy?) in fulfilling their duties. Maybe battle is their form of celebration, their chance to fulfill their duty - and thus joyous occasion. 

 

I admit I have issues seeing Night Watch anything else than Game of Throne's homage so I'll leave them be.

 

However I think I can brainstorm something about the Brotherhood of a Thousand.

 

The Brotherhood of a Thousand is a Codex Astartes-compliant Loyalist Space Marine Chapter of unknown origin and Founding, although the Chapter believes it is descended from the Ultramarines.

So again we get codex-compliant chapter that likely descends from Ultramarines.  Now most might consider this 'boring' but for me this is the best 'tabula rasa' there is.  By being codex-compliant we cannot just hand-wave things about their organization that makes them special.  There are no special units, no special formations. Just space marines as we all known them, meaning that the fluff that brings them alive must focus on their origins, their chapter cult and their deeds.  Perhaps more challenging task for writers, but by no means no less pleasant. 

 

I am perhaps controversially thinking them as 2nd founding chapter with hazy / poor records.  A newer chapter would likely have their records in order.  Secondly I can imagine a meritorious ultramarine captain (or even chaplain?) given his own 'chapter' as per Codex Astertes reforms - and that primogenitor going..

 

Brothers, no longer are we Ultramarines in name. Yet Guilliman's blood still runs in our veins. We are his chosen sons. We are a new brotherhood of warriors as His law dictates. We are the Brotherhood of a a Thousand.

This would leave us with long history to fill with their deeds and accomplishments as well as space to figure out how the millenia have changed them.

[Brother Cambrius]

Man alive, them Taurans are charging away with it. I look forwards to seeing how they develop.

[Commissar Molotov]

Two days to go, and I'm interested to see that the Night Watch have surged forward to be in joint second place! 

[Zebulon]

It's too early to throw in brainstorm ideas related to the Taurans, right? ^^

Otherwise, I'd like to share some things, which came into my mind, with you.

Hi Kelborn,

 

I re-read this and realised you weren’t saying “let’s not talk about this yet”

 

If you want you are welcome to send a private message, or just share those ideas here. Even if the vote changes against Tauran in the next couple of days it still might be interesting for a future project...

[Commissar Molotov]

With 24 hours (or slightly less) left to go, I have posted again in the Board Announcements sub-forum to try to push any more last minute voters (or contributors) towards this thread. It might be a foregone conclusion, but I hope some more people will linger down here! 

 

When a winner is selected (Wednesday afternoon) I will edit the post's title and we will move forward with the next phase. 

 

In the meantime, if you're reading this, go and comment on one of the other threads in the Liber Unity Project! 

 

Hope you're all well, 

 

Mol. 

[Sun Reaver]

Although initially surprised that the Taurans won, I am looking forward to working on them! Can't wait to begin the next phase!

[Black Cohort]

So I think the most important thing now is to figure out what geneseed the Taurans have, a specific founding would also be useful.

 

I believe the main suggestion has been that they are of Imperial Fist stock which would easily fit a stubborn and bull-headed chapter. Ultramarines are always an option but from what I can tell don't offer anything specifically useful to this chapter. I don't see any of the other big 4 working out well in this case. Salamanders could be interesting if we are interested in looking at ritual bull sacrifice as part of the chapter rites. I don't think raven guard or iron hands fit. White Scars also seem like an option if we want to go with a more savage/ uncivilized take.

[Commissar Molotov]

Firstly - the thread title has been updated. The Taurans are now the Chapter selected for CCCP IV. 

 

As we move forward, the first thing is to not become too committed to any concept. Sometimes a problem when discussing a concept with a DIY creator is that they're too attached to a heavily-detailed concept; it's hard for someone commenting to pull loose threads before the whole thing unravels. Plus, it leads to the dangerous prospect of people becoming factionalised and refusing to compromise.

 

So perhaps the thing to discuss is the idea of the 'thumbnail sketch' - thinking about things in broad brushstrokes so that things can be nailed down at a later date. 

 

 

So... what do we have that's official? 

 

Well, firstly we have our colour scheme of bone and black: 

 

 

We also have this background from the Deathwatch limited edition Codex supplement: 

 

 

This background describes the Chapter as 'cloaked in mysteries', but also tells us that they have 'crusading fleets.' The Marines of the Taurans are described as 'staunch' and 'steady.' 

 

Beyond this, we have the following ideas I've distilled out of the thread:

 

Notes and Concepts Thus Far: 

• 'Bullish', 'Stubborn', 'Hard-headed'
• 'Knightly' 
• 'Duelling to resolve issues' 
• Meritocracy - rank through 'force of arms' 
• 'Strength through strife' 
• 'The Tyranids as a true, implacable enemy'
• Klingon Space Marines
• African themes (Shaka's 'Horned Bull' Tactics
• Blood rituals
• Hunting as a pack
• 'Simple and direct'
• 'Overwhelming force'
• 'Boisterous' 
• 'Barely above half strength' 
• 'A bull protecting its territory' 
• Spanish and/or Hispanic themes ('ancient Iberian tribes') 
• Culling
• Blood sacrifice
• Burning bones for readings of the future
• Poleaxes

 

Perhaps the question to ask is if we have any other cultural influences or concepts that we would want to pin to our 'mood board' of ideas? 

[Kelborn]

I'd like to add something that I had in mind for a couple of days.

 

I'm throwing in my brainstorm, I mentioned a while ago. It only consists of some notes, so nothing detailed. Maybe there's something useful. :)

 

Spanish Knights, bit more savage, honor seeking, never back down, always stubborn, never take a step back, throw themselves against the mightiest and lethal foes to proof their worth and skills to others and themselves
Recruits have to hunt down a bull
Veterans are not elected / chosen, every marine can participate in certain trials within the Maze of Buchis, there, they have to survive deadly traps, fight against beasts and combatants like Veteran brothers, those, who pass are welcomed within the ranks of the 1st company, those, who fail, may try again, when they have gained more experience, etc.
Thus, the 1st company is rather small compared to other codex compliant chapters
Mixture of cultures: Spanish Knights, Greek trials / Minotaurs’ maze, Carthage (ancient, era of Hannibal), African horned bull tactics, maybe some blood rituals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Carthage
Imperial Fists geneseed, don’t need to spit acid, doesn’t fit a bull themed chapter, are able and willing to accept pain and losses, natural part of their life and war, stubborn, loyal
Maybe a Crimson Fists successor? Mexican / Spanish names

[Commissar Molotov]

My immediate thought regarding Grecian themes is that we want to avoid the Minotaurs entirely. As such, any way in which we can take the bull in a different direction would be good. As a result, I'm not sure about the labyrinth. Grecian and Roman themes are also exceptionally common with Astartes, but we want to go in a different direction. 

 

I know relatively little about the Spanish Knights, so that'll be my first port of call for research!  

 

I think of bulls and it makes me think of wrestling, which might be something our Space Marines might do in their spare time. 

[Zhiv]

I am not super fond of the 'hunting down bull' piece.  Not every chapter needs the 'hunt down the totem animal' trope.  I would rather leave the 'bull' somehow in the chapter cult rather than the imitation rites. I agree that we should steer away from Minotaurs chapter and it's Greek influences.  This means mazes are likely no-no.  

 

Also, if they are crusading and rarely seen, I feel like that suggests that they might not have a home world.  I mean, if they had a home world surely that would be in records and thus they would not be 'poorly known'.  So maybe they are nomadic, pushing the borders of the Empire, intercepting what they consider threats? Considering the Empire their territory, defending it. 

 

I like splicing in some Shaka Zulu. Maybe veterans / terminators are the 'loins' that break the enemy lines once the horns have struck? 

 

Wrestling sounds good, I also dig the Imperial Fists feel we have going.  Maybe duels to first blood are replaces by wrestling to submission? Imperial Fists have a thing about dueling if I recall correctly.    Spanish knights could work, I guess we all need to read more on them.  

[Brother Lunkhead]

I like the idea of an Iberian motif. There's a lot of culture to draw from (Spanish and Moorish culture as well). I can see an interesting melding of cultures while keeping a knightly theme ala El Cid. Even if you are not into the killing of the bull theme, there is still a lot of symbolism and culture to draw from centered around the bull.

 

All of this also fits in well with the idea that they are an Imperial Fist founding.

[Kelborn]

Some links I got while searching for Spanish Knights via google

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_chivalry

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_military_orders

 

http://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-europe/medieval-spain/famous-spanish-knights/

[Draakur]

Nice to see the Taurans win!

 

Agreed on avoiding Grecian/Minotaur themes. Already said my piece on the typical 'hunt and kill our totem animal' thing, I feel there's a lot more nuanced and interesting ways to have a Chapter relate to/interact with them.

 

Looking forward fo this - off to research Spanish Knights!

[Zebulon]

I will now make public my reply to Kelborn from yesterday...!

 

 

 

Yeah one of my (many) DIYs was a chapter based on the Knights of Santiago... mostly their iconography and colours though.

 

I think that for Taurans the “never give ground” could be relevant, but also going back to the bullfight there is that element of it being a duel between toreador and bull that would speak to Fists’ duelling culture.

 

It might be appropriate for initiates to fight a bull. I know there’s controversy there but it’s not very different from other Hunt-based chapter initiations.

 

I really like your trials and labyrinth ideas in order to achieve veteran status. Plus I think there is merit in having a smaller 1st Company. I don’t know how small would be too small though - need to be at least 50 I’d have thought?

 

I see them as being more melee oriented than favouring ranged tactics. It fits the theme I think.

 

I don’t really know so much about bulls in Carthaginian culture, or African cultures. Can you elaborate?

 

Sacrificial or sacred bulls could feed into chapter cult and beliefs, yes.

 

Another thing going back to the bullfight, the toreador has more plainly-costumed helpers who assist at the start of the fight. Could the Tauran colours be based on this?

 

Lastly would it be over-theming if Company champions had variant, brighter colours? Like the “Suit of Lights” worn by actual toreadors? Maybe it would, but I think it could look pretty cool.

[Black Cohort]

I think a bull fight rather than a hunt for one could be different enough to be interesting.  Maybe as a final test before they are acceptable as initiates?

 

I don't think the first company needs to be designated as being smaller, just that they rarely have enough marines that have passed the tests required to join.  Or maybe they lost a large portion (when they first fight the nids?) and haven't rebuilt the 1st yet?

[Sun Reaver]

After reading through some of the ideas, here are my thoughts. 

 

I love the idea of the Spanish Knight theme. In fact, if we throw in those Moorish influences that were suggested and some characteristics of the Conquistadors, we have a pretty solid, thematic base to work off of. 

 

I like throwing in the Conquistador vibe because they were sent as part of a crusade/expedition to the Americas. They conquered the Aztec Empire and set down influences that are still impacting society in some parts of the world. 

 

This could tie in with the fact that they are a crusading chapter. Now, although I agree that not having a homeworld makes sense, in order to challenge the idea, here is a quick idea. What if they had a home world that was always guarded by at least one company? The rest of the companies could crusade around for years at a time, however they'd always eventually come home. I think that fits well with concept of the Bull and what some of its symbolism can mean - protecting his land/home/hearth. 

 

I like the idea of engaging in some sort of challenge with the bull creatures. However, hunting them feels wrong, not to mention overdone in some chapters. What if they respected the creatures even more so and engaged in challenges and competitions that involved them but not harmed them? Kind of like current day matadors. They could distract the bulls in order for a partner or the marine himself to accomplish an objective. They could even ride the bulls, to see how long they last. Maybe even throw in a bit of a Cowboy feel? God knows everyone would love to see Wild West-ish marines. 

 

Love the wrestling idea a show of strength. 

 

I do agree that we should avoid Greco-Roman themes - let the minotaurs have that. 

 

Although having the Imperial Fist's geneseed seems right, I do not want to get stuck creating another 'stubborn' chapter that loves to duel and doesn't like to give ground. I also think we should avoid direct correlations with the Crimson Fists. Sure, they might have similar names, but we don't have to be their successor. 

 

I think a great challenge which could be rewarding if done correctly would be to find an alternate source of geneseed. Every chapter has some form of dueling and sparring. Some chapters are also very stubborn. The Taurans could come from anywhere! 

 

I also think that having the Tryanids as a primary antagonist in the more recent history of the chapter is great. The Bull is a natural protector of its herd. It is strong, honorable, and loyal. The Tryanids are a perfect unnatural antithesis that could provide great contrast. The Taurans never give up ground and the Tyranids keep taking it. 

 

Overall, loving the suggestions and the teamwork! My thoughts are my own and I do not mean to come off as aggressive or disagreeable (at least, I don't think I did). This is a brainstorming session so please don't think anything I said negatively. I look forward to see what comes next! 

 

 

[Doctor Perils]

The spanish knights idea mixed with crusading forces could either give the conquistadors (as suggested by sun reaver) or the period of the reconquista.

 

There could also be elements of Hindu culture if anyone is interested in the "sacred bulls" aspect - though I always advocate a clear theme (what molotov seems to call a "thumbnail"), it shouldn't be a simplistic theme either.

[Conn Eremon]

A Spanish-inspired Fist successor does technically already exist with the Crimson Fists. Which might be an avenue to explore rather than a reason to reject. Perhaps a Dornian Chapter descended by way of the Crimson Fists.

 

The Conquistadores is a fun thing to explore. Could also go the El Cid route.

 

The bull itself doesn't have to factor into the Chapter beyond the name and emblem. Consider the Red Scorpions, for instance.

[Zebulon]

If people don’t like the idea of bullfighting (though I’d imagine that in the grim darkness of the far future animal cruelty would not be the priority) there is an option for bull-leaping within ancient/mythic culture. Unfortunately though that would again echo the “Minoan/Atlantis” theme we were wanting to avoid.

[Zhiv]

I mean, Space Wolves do mess with actual wolves, but it's not like Imperial Fists are pugilists or Raven Guard have ravens around.  We could do 'Taurans' without having actual bulls anywhere.  The concept being more relevant than the animal.