CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Zebulon]

I mean, Space Wolves do mess with actual wolves, but it's not like Imperial Fists are pugilists or Raven Guard have ravens around. We could do 'Taurans' without having actual bulls anywhere. The concept being more relevant than the animal.

Salamanders do hunt and slay the drake as an initiation though.

 

I just think it adds something if initiates fight a bull. It is a test of bravery and skill, after all, and it very much fits a Hispanic theme.

 

Edit: I admit to definite bias... here’s something I did a while back (excuse basic painting skills)

 

https://imgur.com/a/xTswk

[Zhiv]

 

I mean, Space Wolves do mess with actual wolves, but it's not like Imperial Fists are pugilists or Raven Guard have ravens around. We could do 'Taurans' without having actual bulls anywhere. The concept being more relevant than the animal.

Salamanders do hunt and slay the drake as an initiation though.

 

I just think it adds something if initiates fight a bull. It is a test of bravery and skill, after all, and it very much fits a Hispanic theme.

 

 

I am not saying it doesn't fit the theme, but at least the drakes and wolves are predators.  Here we are talking about butchering a herbivore. I mean, it's not like it's trivial but also same time I feel like it's a trope that could be avoided.  I believe someone said something about 'over-theming'. That's what I feel bull-fights would be.   Also, idea is to borrow themes (such as hispanic) and not to copy them. If we go with the bull fighting we might need to leave other, potentially more interesting bits out if we want to avoid the 'Spaniards in space' image.

[Zebulon]

I am not saying it doesn't fit the theme, but at least the drakes and wolves are predators. Here we are talking about butchering a herbivore. I mean, it's not like it's trivial but also same time I feel like it's a trope that could be avoided. I believe someone said something about 'over-theming'. That's what I feel bull-fights would be. Also, idea is to borrow themes (such as hispanic) and not to copy them. If we go with the bull fighting we might need to leave other, potentially more interesting bits out if we want to avoid the 'Spaniards in space' image.

When circa 500kg of raging bull charges you, I don’t think that you dismiss them as mere herbivores! Nor is it “butchery” - I suspect real world beliefs may be infiltrating there. It’s more a case of one potential killer against another.

 

Moving onwards and sideways, what interesting Spanish themes had you in mind to adorn this non-bull themed chapter which is called Tauran?

:ph34r:

 

Edit: kg not lbs. about 1100lbs.

[Heru]

 

 

 

I mean, Space Wolves do mess with actual wolves, but it's not like Imperial Fists are pugilists or Raven Guard have ravens around. We could do 'Taurans' without having actual bulls anywhere. The concept being more relevant than the animal.

Salamanders do hunt and slay the drake as an initiation though.

 

I just think it adds something if initiates fight a bull. It is a test of bravery and skill, after all, and it very much fits a Hispanic theme.

I am not saying it doesn't fit the theme, but at least the drakes and wolves are predators. Here we are talking about butchering a herbivore. I mean, it's not like it's trivial but also same time I feel like it's a trope that could be avoided. I believe someone said something about 'over-theming'. That's what I feel bull-fights would be.

That was me. I believe getting too focused on trying to add in actual bulls treads down the Space Wolf road. It also limits options, if you have bulls you have to have a homeworld.

 

Perhaps an idea would be to step away from the whole bull imagery and perhaps look more towards the astrological imagery that the Taurus star sign offers. Doesn't Astrology offer a wide range of things like traits for people with the Taurus star sign (sure a lot of those traits are based on bulls, but it offers a diluting filter that steps away from over theming).

 

Personally when I look at the Tauren, I get the feeling of a fleet based Chapter (which I think the deathwatch fluff bit supports). I see a Chapter that operates much like the Carcharodons (Space Sharks).

 

I'm also not particularly feeling the imperial fist vibe, which I feel is popular because of the whole dueling angle and how that relates to bull fighting. Which again is getting stuck on the bull aspect.

 

When I think Tauren I see a Chapter that likes to hit HARD, and my instincts lean more towards Iron Hands gene seed. I don't see a Chapter a Chapter of knights or barbarians. I see a methodical Chapter that applies overwhelming force.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

[Black Cohort]

People also seem to be assuming that it is a terran bull, no reason that it couldn't be a different larger, meaner, or meat eating creature.

 

I think white scars would be an interesting geneseed, they fit into a less civilized take and a somewhat knightly chapter descended from the white scars could be very interesting.

[Zebulon]

People also seem to be assuming that it is a terran bull, no reason that it couldn't be a different larger, meaner, or meat eating creature.

 

I think white scars would be an interesting geneseed, they fit into a less civilized take and a somewhat knightly chapter descended from the white scars could be very interesting.

Agree with both those points. I think that in considering a bull, it is right to consider its strength, aggression and violent power, not its “furryness” or its big eyes. The sort of creature we could be talking about could very well be a predator in this setting.

 

Scars would also give an opportunity to emphasise manoeuvrability- not necessarily like a bull but (you guessed it) like a toreador...

[Conn Eremon]

That's an interesting point about the astrological sign. I might be biased, as I'm currently trying to come up with ideas that ties to the actual stars of the Orion constellation, but perhaps this Chapter is called the Taurans because their home world or zone of influence lies within the Taurus constellation.

 

That is also restrictive of course, as that'd make the Taurans not just of Segmentum Solar but also very close to Terra, galacticly speaking. 9 of its stars are likely to have planets, though I wouldn't recommend holding too closely to modern scientific knowledge. 40k is far from a hard sci-fi setting.

 

Honestly don't think I want to go that route myself, but I'll post it as an example of how many different ways you could give them their name.

[Commissar Molotov]

Side-stepping the issue of fighting bulls for a second (which I'm not personally a fan of): 

 

The first thing I did was to look up El Cid, a Spanish hero of renown. 

 

Some thoughts that occurred to me based on the article: 

 

El Cid was exiled for his unauthorised expedition into Granada. This made me think about the idea of the penitence crusade - a concept that has been applied to some Chapters in 40k fluff. This could be self-imposed, or given by the High Lords of Terra. El Cid also led a diverse force, and the city of Valencia was both Christian and Muslim; this could perhaps be connected to the idea of a far-ranging, nomadic Chapter that recruits from many worlds. 

 

El Cid was eventually recalled from his exile, which made me think that perhaps rather than a Chapter that is currently serving a penitence crusade (such as the Lamenters or the Mantis Warriors), we have a Chapter that previously served some sort of crusade, and this forced them to become somewhat self-reliant, leading to them being somewhat distant and aloof from the Imperium as a whole.

 

(Also, his sword Tizona is useful inspiration for us!) 

 

I also thought of the Reconquista, and perhaps the idea that this Chapter is trying to reconquer ground lost in the millennia since the Heresy.

 

I saw this quote: 

 

 

 

Iberian cavalry tactics involved knights approaching the enemy, throwing javelins, then withdrawing to a safe distance before commencing another assault. Once the enemy formation was sufficiently weakened, the knights charged with thrusting spears (lances did not arrive in Hispania until the 11th century). There were three types of knights (caballeros): royal knights, noble knights (caballeros hidalgos), and commoner knights (caballeros villanos, or "mounted soldier from a villa"). Royal knights were mainly nobles with a close relationship with the king, and thus claimed a direct Gothic inheritance.

 

The section about throwing javelins might be interesting (Whirlwinds?) but I was particularly interested in the idea of the "Royal Knight" - it made me think of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves - the idea of commanders having loyal retainers in a way that's perhaps outside of the Codex structure. 

 

Whilst I accept the Imperial Fist are an obvious choice, I do think we need to be careful not to deliberately be contrary and edgy by choosing "unusual" choices every time. I think it is possible we could go for a White Scars successor as a second possibility, giving us an opportunity to explore some ideas around ''noble savages'. 

[Zhiv]

El Cid was exiled for his unauthorised expedition into Granada. This made me think about the idea of the penitence crusade - a concept that has been applied to some Chapters in 40k fluff. This could be self-imposed, or given by the High Lords of Terra. El Cid also led a diverse force, and the city of Valencia was both Christian and Muslim; this could perhaps be connected to the idea of a far-ranging, nomadic Chapter that recruits from many worlds.

 

 

......

 

I also thought of the Reconquista, and perhaps the idea that this Chapter is trying to reconquer ground lost in the millennia since the Heresy.

 

 

I like all these ideas. Multiple backgrounds, combining various creeds under one banner.  Taking back what was once part of Imperium. 

 

 

 

The section about throwing javelins might be interesting (Whirlwinds?) but I was particularly interested in the idea of the "Royal Knight" - it made me think of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves - the idea of commanders having loyal retainers in a way that's perhaps outside of the Codex structure. 

Or the first company, an elite cadre by definition, could be called 'Chosen Knights' tapping into the source material without copying it. Perhaps the first company has some particular duties within the fleet? Or maybe the companies are households, with each company responsible for it's own training? 

 

 

The section about throwing javelins might be interesting (Whirlwinds?) but I was particularly interested in the idea of the "Royal Knight" - it made me think of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves - the idea of commanders having loyal retainers in a way that's perhaps outside of the Codex structure. 

 

Whilst I accept the Imperial Fist are an obvious choice, I do think we need to be careful not to deliberately be contrary and edgy by choosing "unusual" choices every time. I think it is possible we could go for a White Scars successor as a second possibility, giving us an opportunity to explore some ideas around ''noble savages'. 

I mean, most chapters have their artillery so not like Taurans have to be anything different.  I feel that avoiding contrary and edgy is the right call, seeing how most of the iconic chapters also tend to follow this route.  Soul Drinkers, for example, are IF successor, even if they don't resemble their primogenitors too much. 

[Kelborn]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage

 

I still see Carthage as a good way of combining said horned bull tactics with the Spanish knight theme.

We don't need to give it a Greekish culture. Instead, we could follow the thought of how would a modern Carthage would be like? You know what I mean?

 

Though I love the Scars, I agree with Zhiv. Would be more interesting to have a chapter which doesn't follow in the steps of its Primorgenitor.

 

Possible origins I can think of:

IF, DA, IH, Sallies, Scars

 

Or making them a successor of a successor chapter from a later Founding.

[Zhiv]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage

 

I still see Carthage as a good way of combining said horned bull tactics with the Spanish knight theme.

We don't need to give it a Greekish culture. Instead, we could follow the thought of how would a modern Carthage would be like? You know what I mean?

 

Though I love the Scars, I agree with Zhiv. Would be more interesting to have a chapter which doesn't follow in the steps of its Primorgenitor.

 

Possible origins I can think of:

IF, DA, IH, Sallies, Scars

 

Or making them a successor of a successor chapter from a later Founding.

 

We can splice some Carthage with Iberia and Moors to avoid carbon copying a culture or indeed to represent the multiple worlds the chapter recruits from. 

 

If we go with the 'later founding' we could pick chapters like Death Strike, Soul Drinkers, Fire Lords or Emperor's Warbringers and still stick to Imperial Fist geneseed.

Salamanders have few successors, so I'd avoid them for that reason. Dark Angels bring the whole 'Are we unforgiven or not' issue, another aspect which limits design space and takes attention from main issue. Now Scars I could kinda get behind.  If later founding chapter is picked, we could go for reckless Storm Lords, Savage destroyers or hardy and resolute Dark Hunters.

[Black Cohort]

We also need to be careful we don't become codex adherent Black Templars, an imperial fist successor who are fleet based, draw recruits from multiple cultures, crusade to regain lost imperial territory and are organized in independent units that do their own training.

[Doctor Perils]

I saw this quote:

 

Iberian cavalry tactics involved knights approaching the enemy, throwing javelins, then withdrawing to a safe distance before commencing another assault. Once the enemy formation was sufficiently weakened, the knights charged with thrusting spears (lances did not arrive in Hispania until the 11th century). There were three types of knights (caballeros): royal knights, noble knights (caballeros hidalgos), and commoner knights (caballeros villanos, or "mounted soldier from a villa"). Royal knights were mainly nobles with a close relationship with the king, and thus claimed a direct Gothic inheritance.

The section about throwing javelins might be interesting (Whirlwinds?) but I was particularly interested in the idea of the "Royal Knight" - it made me think of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves - the idea of commanders having loyal retainers in a way that's perhaps outside of the Codex structure.

Funnily enough, the one that jumped out at me was the caballeros vilanos - I'm not sure I've heard of "commonner knights" as a theme in 40k before: perhaps secondary crusading forces are formed by sergeants or captains sometimes without the consent of the chapter master? Yes it would a logistical and strategic nightmare... however, it could also tie in to another aspect of iberian politics over the centuries, with kingdoms splitting and reforming and splitting again: asturias, galicia, Léon, castille, navarra, aragon...

 

 

Regarding the mixed carthage/Spain ideas, bizarely enough there are indeed examples of what that may look like: cartagena and Barcelona were both founded by carthage after all - cartagena I don't believe ever regained much importance after the Romans, but Barcelona became and still is one of the most prominent cities in Europe.

 

 

 

 

For the bullfighting theme: I'm not a fan of the idea because of the overtheming aspect, and I'm not sure it really adds anything that can't be shown in other ways - it just seems too obvious? Plus, you say yourself that Space Wolves and Salamanders already go into the hunting/fighting animal theme, why emulate them? If you absolutely want to mention the idea, I can't see there being any harm in having a short sidenote about it being a popular passtime or training method, but I'd be against the idea of it being an initiation ritual, because these other chapters do something very similar

[Zebulon]

I really don’t think it is overtheming; you all mention two well known chapters that do something similar, not the same, but not the other 998-ish chapters that don’t have anything similar. I don’t think it’s too obvious, and I think it would make the chapter distinctive. I know many people think bullfighting is monstrous; well Marines aren’t meant to be sweetie-pies.

 

Still, I can see there is not much support for the idea so I guess I will have to collect my toys back into the pram and think again when less hungover

[Sete]

Just a quick input. Since you guys are going for iberic theme, I can give a hand.

 

To give a spin on bull fighting, Portugal has a group of guys, Forcados(Suicide Squad).

 

They face down the bull with no weapons and the group try to imobilize it. I won't share Bullfighting videos in here. However a quick google and you can see whats the deal. It's less "bloodthirsty".

 

Might give you guys some inspiration.

 

Have a look at Portugal's traditions and Knightly Orders and general history. Since it's not well known you guys might find some inspirational gems in there.

 

Read also about Celtiberans, especially Lusitanii. They gave the legions of Rome a hard time.

 

I do think Iberia is a perfect inspiration for stubborn bull headed hot blooded space marine chapter.

 

Also a bull is not a cow. They are agressive and can ruin your :cuss real fast. They fight predators like wolves and usually have really sharp horns that again, will :cuss up your :cuss. It not a domestic cow.

 

Face down a 500kg bull unarmed and see how you fare.

[Zhiv]

Just a quick input. Since you guys are going for iberic theme, I can give a hand.

 

To give a spin on bull fighting, Portugal has a group of guys, Forcados(Suicide Squad).

 

They face down the bull with no weapons and the group try to imobilize it. I won't share Bullfighting videos in here. However a quick google and you can see whats the deal. It's less "bloodthirsty".

 

Might give you guys some inspiration.

 

Have a look at Portugal's traditions and Knightly Orders and general history. Since it's not well known you guys might find some inspirational gems in there.

 

Read also about Celtiberans, especially Lusitanii. They gave the legions of Rome a hard time.

 

I do think Iberia is a perfect inspiration for stubborn bull headed hot blooded space marine chapter.

 

Also a bull is not a cow. They are agressive and can ruin your real fast. They fight predators like wolves and usually have really sharp horns that again, will up your . It not a domestic cow.

 

Face down a 500kg bull unarmed and see how you fare.

 

I think the idea of fighting or immobilizing bulls is more or less the same - over theming.  Also, bull having such ritual would necessitate a home world - something we might want to avoid if Taurans are on a penitent crusade.  There are pros and cons to having a homeworld. On the other hand, it anchors down things and makes it easier to add to the background.  On the other hand, not having a home world allows the chapter to have wide history, having been here and there - and also recruiting from various sources. 

 

However, looking at other warrior cultures on Iberian pennisula does seem have some merit.  For example we have these guys.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almogavars best known for being annoying bad-asses, focusing on military training and having frightening battle cries. 

 

 

Endowed with great valor and ferocity, those from the Crown of Aragon entered into combat to the cry of "Awake iron!! Let's kill, let's kill",

 

I think we might benefit from agreeing on the Tauran's progenitors - thus giving the kindling to their chapter cult.  After that, we could discuss how their experiences and indeed, how their recruits might have changed their chapter cult and how it's apparent in the chapter today.  In a way, I could see there being some emphasis on chaplains via us going for christian knights. I am also entertained by the idea of apocatheries distilling medical brews (wines) that might have uses in the sacred ceremonies of the chapter. (There is precedent for this with the Space Wolf mead that contains essential enzymes they for their recruits to drink)  

[Sete]

I actually used the Almogavars battle cry on my DiY chapter Grey Talons. They are Iberian inspired.

 

Over theming is space wolves with wolf claws with thunderwolf, and wolf lords and wet leopard growls. Having a chapter named Taurans with a ritual of initiation involving bulls is quite mild to be honest.

The chapter will need a reason for the symbol and name.

 

I actually like wines for rituals, and from a modelling perspective you can use the BA grails.

 

Progenitor wise, Imperial Fists would be the best bet due to the small descriptions available.

 

This actually inspired me to do a chapter with bull iconography.

[Black Cohort]

I think white scars would be better, it helps push us away from being too close to Black Templars

[Zhiv]

 

Over theming is space wolves with wolf claws with thunderwolf, and wolf lords and wet leopard growls. Having a chapter named Taurans with a ritual of initiation involving bulls is quite mild to be honest.

The chapter will need a reason for the symbol and name.

 

Thing is, (as far as I know) chapters are named when they are found, before they have any kind of rituals or traditions to build on.  With the obvious exception of first and second foundlings of course.  Or they are possibly named by the initial training cadre coming from their progenitor chapter - however at that point there won't be any new traditions.  I mean, of course we could have a home world with impressive bulls going around that give raise to the name but if we go 'crusading chapter' it could be just as something pulled from Emperor's Tarot or mayhaps somehow related to the sector they were defending. 

[Zebulon]

Thing is, (as far as I know) chapters are named when they are found, before they have any kind of rituals or traditions to build on. With the obvious exception of first and second foundlings of course. Or they are possibly named by the initial training cadre coming from their progenitor chapter - however at that point there won't be any new traditions. I mean, of course we could have a home world with impressive bulls going around that give raise to the name but if we go 'crusading chapter' it could be just as something pulled from Emperor's Tarot or mayhaps somehow related to the sector they were defending.

If, for example the naming is undertaken by the training cadre, those Marines are not a blank slate, you’d imagine, but have their own traditions and backgrounds that might influence how they want to represent the new chapter.

 

I find purely fleet-based chapters dull- personal preference of course like so much in these discussions. A home world would for me be much better in order to add character and reduce too much of the “shrug, dunno” factor that sometimes takes the place of characterisation in DIY IA articles.

[Commissar Molotov]

The nature of a collaborative project is that we might not 'win' - we might not get every concept into the final product in a way that we like. But by discussing with one another we hopefully come up with something that is greater than the sum of its parts. 

 

We know from the official GW fluff that the Tauran have 'crusading fleets' that have appeared only rarely in Imperial history. We can place our ideas on a spectrum: 

 

A Homeworld:

This allows us to create a strong themed world which can have a heavy influence on the Chapter. Detractors will say that this will be heavy-handed, potentially. 

 

Multiple Homeworlds:

This allows us to discuss a "blending" of cultures - perhaps the Taurans have oversight of a large sector or associated area from which they collect their recruits.

 

A Homeworld, plus Crusading Fleets:

This perhaps allows us to say that the Chapter has a strong "hunting" ethos akin to the White Scars.

 

Entirely Fleet-based:

This perhaps lets us look at the Taurans as a nomadic Chapter, which potentially if we are looking at them having served a Penitence Crusade, it could be interesting to show that they do not receive succour from the wider Imperium. 

 

 

 

 

My personal thought is this: 

 

The Taurans had a homeworld, at some point. They then abandoned or forfeited it to become the relentless, crusading, nomadic Chapter we have today. I like the idea that this planet was either uninhabited, or it was inhabited by primitive tribes that avoid the fortress, considering it cursed. Periodically, forces from the Taurans return to make offerings around their old Fortress Monastery. These offerings might be captured weapons and the bones of fallen enemies, totems and standards, even armoured vehicles, their metal skeletons slowly crumbling. A visual history of the Chapter's hard-fought victories and terrible losses, avenged. 

 

I think the Chapter might have a complicated relationship with its former homeworld - a place which many of the Chapter's warriors never knew, and yet a symbol of... what? Perhaps the futility of calling one place home, when their focus is the whole of the Imperium? A reminder never to rest, but rather to forge ahead relentlessly? 

 

 

 

I've also edited the first page with the barest of bare-bone layouts so we can begin to flesh out the Chapter. 

[Zhiv]

 

My personal thought is this: 

 

The Taurans had a homeworld, at some point. They then abandoned or forfeited it to become the relentless, crusading, nomadic Chapter we have today. I like the idea that this planet was either uninhabited, or it was inhabited by primitive tribes that avoid the fortress, considering it cursed. Periodically, forces from the Taurans return to make offerings around their old Fortress Monastery. These offerings might be captured weapons and the bones of fallen enemies, totems and standards, even armoured vehicles, their metal skeletons slowly crumbling. A visual history of the Chapter's hard-fought victories and terrible losses, avenged. 

 

I think the Chapter might have a complicated relationship with its former homeworld - a place which many of the Chapter's warriors never knew, and yet a symbol of... what? Perhaps the futility of calling one place home, when their focus is the whole of the Imperium? A reminder never to rest, but rather to forge ahead relentlessly? 

 

 

 

I've also edited the first page with the barest of bare-bone layouts so we can begin to flesh out the Chapter. 

 

Let's say they had a homeworld, bulls or no bulls. If we want to go with 'all crusade' chapter then perhaps Taurans are relatively old chapter, say 4th  or 5th founding. Perhaps they had a home world -  a world that fell to orks / eldar / chaos while most of their forces were serving elsewhere. Perhaps something foul happened that lead to planet being purged from Imperial Records and causing them Taurans to take up an eternal crusade to ensure that no other world falls?  Or perhaps the world died, becoming a massive 'tomb' in space. A tomb that serves as reliquary to the Taurans.

 

I admit this is building on the fact that 'their crusading fleets are rarely seen.'  and thus assuming that their home world is abandoned or poorly known.  Of course it's possible that their home world is relatively well known and it's just that the marines that are rarely seen because they are crusading across the stars. 

[Black Cohort]

It could also be that their homeworld is somewhere outside the boundaries of the Imperium.

[Doctor Perils]

I like the idea of a crusading chapter with a homeworld - it would avoid the "too close to black templars" problem for one thing. However, it may be a good idea to stay away from the "lost homeworld" trope, as the crimson fists lost their first homeworld if memory serves. Abandoning it though could be interesting, and the question of why they would abandon it is perhaps even more interesting - this could even be left open as a mysterious secret of the early days of the chapter?

 

@molotov: are you suggesting that the whole chapter fortress be a kind of trophy Hall? And that it is completely abandoned most of the time? That sounds metal!

[Zebulon]

it was inhabited by primitive tribes that avoid the fortress, considering it cursed. Periodically, forces from the Taurans return to make offerings around their old Fortress Monastery. These offerings might be captured weapons and the bones of fallen enemies, totems and standards, even armoured vehicles, their metal skeletons slowly crumbling. A visual history of the Chapter's hard-fought victories and terrible losses, avenged.

I really like this bit. Perhaps the natives think it is cursed because they never see the Marines coming back to erect those memorials.

 

And commemoration is I think viable and worthwhile when talking about small elites such as a Marine Chapter.

 

I’d definitely support inclusion of this bit.