CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Commissar Molotov]

We've discovered at least two official GW sources that call them "Taurans", so I think that's what we have to go with. 

 

My question to those posters discussing ideas around "knights" - clearly the Imperial Fists don't have the monopoly on knightly aspects, as we have the Dark Angels alongside the Templars/Imperial Fists. So: when you say "knightly", exactly what aspects do you mean? What are the ingredients that we can bring to the Taurans? 

 

What is it, exactly, that separates Spanish/Iberian knights from other knightly groups, such as the Teutonic knights that Lunkhead/Thorn have mentioned? 

 

I think it's important to try to be as specific as possible so we can see what concepts do or don't mesh well with what we've got. 

[Conn Eremon]

Speaking in general, this doesn't have to matter to this particular project, but it's important to remember that successor chapters do not have to be copies of, or variations thereof, their progenitor Chapter. Even if the Dark Angels or Imperial Fists are known for knightly themes, there's nothing that stops any other genetic origin from having a knightly theme of its own.

 

The White Scars are known for a savage freedom and ferocity that manifests itself as a need for speed within the progenitor Chapter, but that can manifest in entirely different ways. Consider the Marauders or Rampagers, whose names suggest a very different outlet for that ferocity. The original Index Astartes article for them suggested that this trait might even be inherent to the steppe warriors of Chogoris instead, though the possibility of it being a genetic flaw is not discounted. In my opinion, it certainly seems to be something common to the White Scars successors as described, but the 'need for speed' manifestation appears to be specific to the progenitor's recruitment base.

 

The Dark Hunters are a White Scar example successor that has none of that 'need for speed.'

[ToyShip]

Not to beat the dead horse that seems to be the Dark Angels geneseed, but here is something interesting from the Angels of Vengeance article on Lexicanum:

 

Regarded as some of the most stubborn fighters of the Imperium of Man, these Space Marines have risked the future of their chapter many times, by throwing themselves in the most dire situations, and refusing to retreat even when their chances were almost nil. They are even less well known than those of the other Unforgiven Chapters, for they shun fame and celebrations and instead concentrate on their duties and mission. The Angels of Vengeance embody the stubborn devotion of the original Dark Angels Legion above all else, with this trait bordering on single-mindedness. It is also said that the Angels of Vengeance are unrelenting in their persecution of foes to the Imperium, maintaining not only an extreme hatred of Xenos but an even more fanatical disdain for traitors and Chaos Space Marines.

 

Sounds alot like what we have been talking about. That said, the White Scars have some strong arguments for them, so if that's the way we go, then great! Not too many White Scar successors out there, and I can always steal the Dark Angels stuff for myself  .

 

 

*Edit*

 

I'm not sure the knightly stuff really adds anything to the chapter. We could still use the Spanish themes and even names, but I tihnk the knightly idea would really just cheapen the overall feel. We don't want to add that on top of everything else we have discussed just for the sake of it, and for those worried about the Taurans being too similar to the Black Templars, omitting the knightly stuff would help to differentiate. Of course, I am willing to be proven wrong as always. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

The knightly theme has no particular hold on me. I was just trying to ascertain whether or not we were heading in that direction. If we are not, I would favor the White Scars founding idea. The Dark Angels  are very cool, but I feel that the "unforgiven" aspect for our purposes would be a mill stone around the Taurans' neck. I'd like to have a clean break from that sort of intrigue.

 

Thanks for clearing up Tauran v Taurans for me 

[Zebulon]

At this point I think White Scars are my preferred choice. Seeing their normal traits used on a chapter that doesn't focus on bikes/ fast units would be interesting.

Hmmm... in modelling terms though a bike with a bull’s head on the front, horns for handlebars could look pretty cool imho!

 

If you guys don't like the idea, I'll use it in a new IH DiY chapter.

Good call. I think I will do the same with my bullfighting ideas.

 

(I don't feel like Taurans and iberian warriors/knights go well with the general philosophy of speed that seems to be motivated by an inward genetic yearning for movement if the WS HH books are anything to go by)

On the contrary, Spanish knights were famed for both their light and heavy cavalry... it works perfectly well I think.

 

EDIT: As to what’s interesting about Spanish knights in particular, I am not certain in the context of this DIY and the way it’s going. One thing that might be relevant is this -

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinete

 

“Their tactics were not to close but to hover round their opponents, continually harassing them till they should give ground or break their formation, when a chance would occur of pushing a charge home”

- Sounds somewhat Scars-esque to me?

 

The Dark Hunters are a White Scar example successor that has none of that 'need for speed.'

While I always took an interest in the tiny snippet of fluff regarding the Dark Hunters when I first noticed them mentioned (5th edition Codex Space Marines, but happy to be corrected); I think it was a much more recent decision to start referring to them as a Scars Successor.

[Zhiv]

While I am still kinda vouching for the Scars, I'm going to point out that Imperial Fists have produced the following chapters

 

Executioners. 

 

Aside from an unbreakable sense of honour and a history of unparalleled skill at arms, they share little in common with their forebears' culture and traditions (snip)
Some of their fellow Space Marines view the Executioners as little more than ill-disciplined primitives and gore-splattered headhunters, little better than Renegades.

Excoriators
 

 

The Excoriators is a fairly pragmatic Chapter of Astartes, for it seeks to cause maximum attrition amongst the foe while minimising its own casualties by any means necessary. Fluidity, timing and technique are all subservient to the Excoriators' simple, primordial desire to be the last men standing in any fight. To them, survival is everything.

 

We could easily go 'Yeah, they are Fists, but bit different. It works out.'  Same can be said of Ultramarines as well. 

 

White Scar's successors seem to have the same kind of variance, thought expressed less. Thus, I don't think that creating a more cool and collected white Scars successor would break anything established - instead it could be seen as building on established canon.

 

Meanwhile most Dark Angel successors seem to be unforgiven, understandable as the founding cadre of each Dark Angels successor has had to come among the veterans of Dark Angels and their successors, meaning that Inner Circles of respective chapters have likely been involved.  Yes, Angels of Wrath is not listed as Unforgiven, but very little is known about the chapter.  I mean, building a non-Unforgiven Dark Angels successor could be fun exercise but I think like there are better moulds than Taurans for that purpose. 

[Sun Reaver]

Any chapter can be stubborn, ferocious, assault-oriented, etc. IMO, the primary use of selecting a geneseed is to build a foundation for the culture of the chapter. Battle tactics and all that come later. 

 

Take the Mantis Warriors for example - They are a WS successor but prefer stealth and guerrilla warfare. This is the exact opposite of how the White Scar prefer to fight! In fact, they seem more Raven Guard-ish than anything. 

 

I would recommend we stay clear of DA geneseed. If we go the DA route, we need Deathwing, Ravenwing, Inner Circle, etc. If we say they don't consider themselves Ungforgiven, we have to explain why. And as much as I like the idea of Sanguinary Guard with bull shaped helmets, I think we should also avoid BA due to their mandatory quirks as well. 

 

The two most popular suggestions seem to be IF and WS. I prefer WS because the idea of constant movement, irrespective of how fast, appeals to me. Bulls, by nature are impatient, impulsive, and rarely have I seen one stay still for long. IF is a solid second option though I see them ending up as a varied version of the Executioners. 

 

Mol, have we set a deadline or timetable for the decisions? I think that may help in making decisions without getting bogged down a bit too much? Just a thought. 

[Doctor Perils]

What is it, exactly, that separates Spanish/Iberian knights from other knightly groups, such as the Teutonic knights that Lunkhead/Thorn have mentioned?

I was mainly talking about Spanish knights because I thought id seen quite a few people mention "iberia" and "knights" as dissociated themes and I wanted to point out that it would be perfectly possible to mix the two as there is historical precedent - if I'm honest though, I'd rather we went down one of the many other possible routes as the "knights" theme has been done to death.

 

On the contrary, Spanish knights were famed for both their light and heavy cavalry... it works perfectly well I think.

 

EDIT: As to what’s interesting about Spanish knights in particular, I am not certain in the context of this DIY and the way it’s going. One thing that might be relevant is this -

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinete

 

“Their tactics were not to close but to hover round their opponents, continually harassing them till they should give ground or break their formation, when a chance would occur of pushing a charge home”

- Sounds somewhat Scars-esque to me?

Thanks for the correction :tu:

 

Any chapter can be stubborn, ferocious, assault-oriented, etc. IMO, the primary use of selecting a geneseed is to build a foundation for the culture of the chapter. Battle tactics and all that come later.

To some extent I agree: the battle tactics of a chapter probably shouldn't stem from their predecessors - they would be more likely to be based on the Codex Astartes mainly.

On the other hand, I don't agree with the idea that the culture would come from the parent chapter - your own example of the mantis warriors are hardly Mongolian warriors from the steppes after all.

Essentially, geneseed should play very little role in the conception of the chapter - only if there are any genetic flaws (the red thirst for instance) should there really be much difference.

Reading "Scars" I seem to remember even the Terran scars having the need for mobility, so that _may_ be a genetic quirk, but that's hardly obligatory, and in any case that could be shown in a host of different ways

Personal opinion:

If we do go down the scars route, for those previous reasons I don't think the Taurans should be portrayed as "savage" - I think the conquistadors theme would be more interesting

[Brother Lunkhead]

Any chapter can be stubborn, ferocious, assault-oriented, etc. IMO, the primary use of selecting a geneseed is to build a foundation for the culture of the chapter. Battle tactics and all that come later. 

 

Take the Mantis Warriors for example - They are a WS successor but prefer stealth and guerrilla warfare. This is the exact opposite of how the White Scar prefer to fight! In fact, they seem more Raven Guard-ish than anything. 

 

I would recommend we stay clear of DA geneseed. If we go the DA route, we need Deathwing, Ravenwing, Inner Circle, etc. If we say they don't consider themselves Ungforgiven, we have to explain why. And as much as I like the idea of Sanguinary Guard with bull shaped helmets, I think we should also avoid BA due to their mandatory quirks as well. 

 

The two most popular suggestions seem to be IF and WS. I prefer WS because the idea of constant movement, irrespective of how fast, appeals to me. Bulls, by nature are impatient, impulsive, and rarely have I seen one stay still for long. IF is a solid second option though I see them ending up as a varied version of the Executioners. 

 

Mol, have we set a deadline or timetable for the decisions? I think that may help in making decisions without getting bogged down a bit too much? Just a thought. 

 

Good points. I think that due to the burdens and baggage DA and BA carry, it tends to rub off on their successors. IF and WS don't have this problem, and I think that either one would be a great foundation for our chapter.

 

I also second the idea of deadlines and timetables. Time to move forward.

[Black Cohort]

I agree on having a timeline.  And I vote WS though I am fine with either.

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, the thing to remember is that not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to visit the board on a daily basis. If we move too quickly or make decisions too arbitrarily, it will alienate posters.

 

It's very easy for me to make all the decisions. It's very easy for this thread to be me and two or three people I like. But the point of this project is to allow people to discuss theoretical ideas, to share viewpoints and walk away amicably. Of course, we can't please 100% of the frater 100% of the time, but aiming for some consensus and some compromise is no bad thing.

 

This evening I will try to post up a survey of where we are. I anticipate that by Saturday we will be able to make a final decision on the Taurans' genetic heritage.

 

If anyone is reading this and has a viewpoint, please feel free to contribute!

[Black Cohort]

I don't want to set timelines such that prevents people from contributing but having some kind of structure and timeline in my opinion is handy.

[Sun Reaver]

 

Any chapter can be stubborn, ferocious, assault-oriented, etc. IMO, the primary use of selecting a geneseed is to build a foundation for the culture of the chapter. Battle tactics and all that come later.

To some extent I agree: the battle tactics of a chapter probably shouldn't stem from their predecessors - they would be more likely to be based on the Codex Astartes mainly.

On the other hand, I don't agree with the idea that the culture would come from the parent chapter - your own example of the mantis warriors are hardly Mongolian warriors from the steppes after all.

 

Well, if you think about it - The veteran cadre that leads and trains the nascent marine chapter would influence the chapter's culture heavily at the beginning. They could have originally been quite similar to the Mongolians warriors from the steppes. As the chapter establishes a homeworld, the homeworld's culture and chapter battle experiences would shape and dominate over time. 

[Commissar Molotov]

 

 

I prefer WS because the idea of constant movement, irrespective of how fast, appeals to me. Bulls, by nature are impatient, impulsive, and rarely have I seen one stay still for long.

 

I like this phrasing, and this morning as I read it I thought of the great grass sea from Game of Thrones; I thought of how a Chapter drawn from veterans of the White Scars, huntsmen of Chogoris, possessed of an intimate and almost mystical bond, might transmit some of its ideology downwards into a successor. 

 

 

"As upon the plains of Chogoris,

so unto the void eternal." 

                                                               - Tauran Maxim

 

 

The Carcharadon Astra are, I think, a predatory fleet, a pack of sharks that seem to swarm and predate. To me I think of the Taurans as more nomadic - not gradual, peaceful and stately - these are not proud or boastful warriors. But there is something that reveals these Marines as moving steadily across the Imperium, reconquering territory that has been lost to the Imperium. 

 

Heru raises the point that we can interpret the idea that the Taurans' fleets are "rarely seen" - perhaps they strike, then move on before the greater Imperial authorities can catch up with them. Or perhaps some of the focus is on the fact that the Taurans shun the glories of fame. Perhaps there is always more work to be done, the next battles to be fought, to ensure that the Imperium endures. 

[Doctor Perils]

Well, if you think about it - The veteran cadre that leads and trains the nascent marine chapter would influence the chapter's culture heavily at the beginning. They could have originally been quite similar to the Mongolians warriors from the steppes. As the chapter establishes a homeworld, the homeworld's culture and chapter battle experiences would shape and dominate over time.

Aye, but a possible veteran cadre is still at most a tenth of the members of the chapter at the beginning - yes, they will influence the chapter's culture, but another large part of that will be from the homeworld even from the chapter's inception (or at least that of where the initial recruits come from)

 

Essentially, my main argument is that we shouldn't limit our creativity to a geneseed choice before choosing anything else to do with the chapter - instead, it's the main theme of the chapter that can inform us regarding what progenitor might be most interesting to us moving forward.

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, but a possible veteran cadre is still at most a tenth of the members of the chapter at the beginning - yes, they will influence the chapter's culture, but another large part of that will be from the homeworld even from the chapter's inception (or at least that of where the initial recruits come from)

 

Essentially, my main argument is that we shouldn't limit our creativity to a geneseed choice before choosing anything else to do with the chapter - instead, it's the main theme of the chapter that can inform us regarding what progenitor might be most interesting to us moving forward.

 

Well, yes and no. I agree completely with the first paragraph, but I think there are two valid ways in which we can create the Taurans.

 

On one hand, as you suggest, we could settle on an overall theme that will inform both the progenitor and home world influence. Decide what you want to make, and let that determine the ingredients that build up to it.

 

On the other hand, we can settle on a progenitor and home world culture separately, and figure out how they meld together within the Chapter. Figure out the ingredients first, and then see what we can make with them.

 

Considering how just about every single DIY in the Liber probably followed the first path, having a core idea that dictates development, I think it might be kind of fun to try a different way. Come to an agreement on individual elements like the progenitor and the home world (if any), and let the ingredients dictate development.

 

To cast my own vote, I say we go with the White Scars. It's easy for the Liber to get into a mindset that successors mimic their progenitors, and I'd like the Taurans to stand as an opposing example. In addition to what I've previously stated on the subject of what White Scar gene-seed provides to its successors, I've always been of the mind that they were among the most affected by their home world. All were, and I'd say the Space Wolves have an equal, if not greater, home world influence, but the influence of Chogoris certainly exceeds that of Nocturne, Baal, Medusa, so on and so forth. That's something I had in mind when I created my White Scar DIY successor, to give further weight to home world influences, which I think is in line with Thorn's thinking as well.

 

 

Food for further thought, there's an additional way in which a "rarely seen" fleet can be interpreted: that the Taurans are neither fleet-based or prone to void combat. The Taurans themselves can be a common sight on countless battlefields, but a Tauran fleet, something more than just troop carriers and escorts, could be a rare sight.

[Black Cohort]

The training Cadre has to be a minimum of about 15 marines but realistically is probably double that.

 

Minimum

 

former Captain/New Chapter master

10 sgts/vets initially scout sgts then Coy commanders as chapter grows

1 Chaplain

1 Librarian

1 Apothecary

1 Tech-marine

 

More likely (provides redundancy in all areas with extra apothecaries to deal with all the new recruits)

 

Former Captain/New Chapter master

15 sgts/vets initially scout sgts then Coy commanders/ Senior Sgts as chapter grows

3 Chaplains

3 Librarians

5 Apothecaries

3 Tech-marines

[Commissar Molotov]

Whilst we have had arguments for gene-lineage from the Dark Angels, the Imperial Fists and the Iron Hands, it appears the general consensus is in favour of the White Scars. 

 

As such, we will move forward with the legacy of Jaghatai Khan!

 

Perhaps our new consideration is how long the Taurans have served the Imperium, and the world that they took as their own. 

 

Toyship posited the interesting theory that the Taurans were entangled in the Nova Terra Interregnum, when the Imperium was cleft in twain. This appears to have been between mid-M34 and M35. This would make the Taurans a Chapter with a long history and heritage. 

 

We have mooted some ideas of what the Taurans' homeworld might be like in M41, but what ideas might we have? For those with concerns regarding the White Scars' gene-seed, the homeworld is a way to provide them with a new cultural influence. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

 

I prefer WS because the idea of constant movement, irrespective of how fast, appeals to me. Bulls, by nature are impatient, impulsive, and rarely have I seen one stay still for long.

 

I like this phrasing, and this morning as I read it I thought of the great grass sea from Game of Thrones; I thought of how a Chapter drawn from veterans of the White Scars, huntsmen of Chogoris, possessed of an intimate and almost mystical bond, might transmit some of its ideology downwards into a successor. 

 

 

"As upon the plains of Chogoris,

so unto the void eternal." 

                                                               - Tauran Maxim

 

 

The Carcharadon Astra are, I think, a predatory fleet, a pack of sharks that seem to swarm and predate. To me I think of the Taurans as more nomadic - not gradual, peaceful and stately - these are not proud or boastful warriors. But there is something that reveals these Marines as moving steadily across the Imperium, reconquering territory that has been lost to the Imperium. 

 

Heru raises the point that we can interpret the idea that the Taurans' fleets are "rarely seen" - perhaps they strike, then move on before the greater Imperial authorities can catch up with them. Or perhaps some of the focus is on the fact that the Taurans shun the glories of fame. Perhaps there is always more work to be done, the next battles to be fought, to ensure that the Imperium endures. 

 

 

 

 

Well, if you think about it - The veteran cadre that leads and trains the nascent marine chapter would influence the chapter's culture heavily at the beginning. They could have originally been quite similar to the Mongolians warriors from the steppes. As the chapter establishes a homeworld, the homeworld's culture and chapter battle experiences would shape and dominate over time.

Aye, but a possible veteran cadre is still at most a tenth of the members of the chapter at the beginning - yes, they will influence the chapter's culture, but another large part of that will be from the homeworld even from the chapter's inception (or at least that of where the initial recruits come from)

 

Essentially, my main argument is that we shouldn't limit our creativity to a geneseed choice before choosing anything else to do with the chapter - instead, it's the main theme of the chapter that can inform us regarding what progenitor might be most interesting to us moving forward.

 

 

These are all good ideas and point that could easily be melded into core characteristics that make the Taurans different from their parent chapter yet have an air of familiarity. I like the idea of the Taurans in a fleet, wandering the vast steppes of space, striking where they wish or are most needed and then going their own way. They seek neither glory or credit. They defend the Empire of Man as they see fit to do it. They are proud, a bit arrogant, and a mystery to the Imperium as a whole.

[Commissar Molotov]

So, with a week or so away from the Taurans, it's time to think about our Chapter. We know that they were created from the gene-seed of Jaghatai Khan, and are likely to be a Chapter with a relatively long history of service to the Imperium (before the Nova Terra Interregnum)

 

 

One of the concepts we had regarding the Taurans was that they may have had a homeworld at some point in their history. What sort of world was this? What were its people like? 

 

What is the fleet of the Taurans like? 

 

How do the Taurans fight in battle? 

[Black Cohort]

I feel like the Taurans fight in large numbers, smashing the enemy apart in a relentless advance.  Once they hit the ground they never stop advancing, their tactics are rarely subtle and the enemy often sees them coming but that does matter.   They almost never deploy in numbers below the company level and more frequently deploy a reinforced battle company or 2.  This means they tend to have fewer groups operating at one time.

 

This ties into how I see their fleet operating, centered around a battle barge with 2-4 strike cruisers.  They have more heavy ships than average for a chapter, but less lighter ships like frigates.  The wield their ships with the grace of a sledgehammer and are fond of boarding actions.

[Zhiv]

If they have had a home world, it must have been very different from Mundus Planus / Chogoris, the home of the White Scars.  If and if Chogorian blood impacted White Scar geneseed, then it maybe that Tauran genome also has left its imprint on Tauran geneseed. 

 

So how blood thirsty, feral warriors eventually become stubborn and determined defenders of humanity.  Perhaps planet X has a hardy population of survivalists, that much endure harsh conditions to make their living. Perhaps instead of nomadic tribes, the natives are more settled and have cattle / fields to defend. Think of Zulu's for example. 

[Brother Cambrius]

I like the idea of their style of combat being 'The Stampede', with wave after crushing wave of mechanised/mounted assaults giving the enemy no quarter to respond. They dislike static warfare and rarely deploy such styles of wargear such as rhe Thunderfire/Whirlwind.

 

Strike fast, strike hard, keep striking until they are dust beneath our feet.

 

Cambrius

[Zhiv]

I like the idea of their style of combat being 'The Stampede', with wave after crushing wave of mechanised/mounted assaults giving the enemy no quarter to respond. They dislike static warfare and rarely deploy such styles of wargear such as rhe Thunderfire/Whirlwind.

 

Strike fast, strike hard, keep striking until they are dust beneath our feet.

 

Cambrius

This kinda conflicts what we know canonically. 

'typical of his chapter's steady character.'

 

Of course we can rewrite the little GW has established, but I'd rather follow the few queues we have.  We would have a chapter that establishes fire bases before launching carefully planned attacks to crush the enemy.  I mean, all marine chapters are shock forces. Their equipment screams of 'assault' forces. Yet, there are many ways to take the fight to the enemy.  That snippet gives the feeling of deliberate destruction rather than uncontrollable stampede. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

I like the idea of their style of combat being 'The Stampede', with wave after crushing wave of mechanised/mounted assaults giving the enemy no quarter to respond. They dislike static warfare and rarely deploy such styles of wargear such as rhe Thunderfire/Whirlwind.

 

Strike fast, strike hard, keep striking until they are dust beneath our feet.

 

Cambrius

This kinda conflicts what we know canonically. 

'typical of his chapter's steady character.'

 

Of course we can rewrite the little GW has established, but I'd rather follow the few queues we have.  We would have a chapter that establishes fire bases before launching carefully planned attacks to crush the enemy.  I mean, all marine chapters are shock forces. Their equipment screams of 'assault' forces. Yet, there are many ways to take the fight to the enemy.  That snippet gives the feeling of deliberate destruction rather than uncontrollable stampede. 

 

 

I don't think these ideas have to be mutually exclusive. Striking, as a rule with overwhelming force as your primary style of putting steel on target doesn't have to be reckless. In fact it really can't be, or eventually, no more chapter. Using a large force to strike the foe relentlessly but intelligently, at the right moment would look like a stampede.

 

Also....

 

If they have had a home world, it must have been very different from Mundus Planus / Chogoris, the home of the White Scars.  If and if Chogorian blood impacted White Scar geneseed, then it maybe that Tauran genome also has left its imprint on Tauran geneseed. 

 

So how blood thirsty, feral warriors eventually become stubborn and determined defenders of humanity.  Perhaps planet X has a hardy population of survivalists, that much endure harsh conditions to make their living. Perhaps instead of nomadic tribes, the natives are more settled and have cattle / fields to defend. Think of Zulu's for example. 

 

I like the idea of the Tauran home world having been more of an agri-world with vast herds of grazing animals. I think that fits in well with our theme.