The Emperor protects - a Codex: AM review

[Galron]

Used Grenadiers vs a Death Guard squad. Was amusing. Doesn't take away from being able to shoot as well as far as I know. Yeah he still had some dudes standing after 10d6 frag grenades and d6 grenade launcher shots(think I only rolled a 1) and 19 lasgun shots but was worth it just to watch them fall down to 2 guys. Same squad had already been hit by 3 heavy flamers.

 

As for tanks, I use bare bone LRs now with whatever turret weapons and a hull heavy bolter. I find them satisfactory with the cata doctrine since I roll so badly in general, literally well below average normally. Especially since my heavy tanks are so inefficient compared to LRs now.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You can't throw Grenades and fire your normal weapons, a model can only do either-or, and Grenadiers doesn't override that.

[Galron]

Ahh ok. I thought 8th edition rule was you use every weapon your model has which is why heavy weapons teams also get to fire their lasrifle.

[Feral_80]

You do, with the exception of grenades and pistols.

[olcottr]

So wait, the HWT can also fire the 2 lasguns in addition to the Heavy Weapon?

[Altasmurf]

They only have 1 lasgun, but yes they can fire their lasgun and heavy weapon.

[olcottr]

Ah, I wish they would have specified that in the Infantry Squad entry like they did in the Heavy Weapons Squad entry.

 

So basically a HWT is a single model with a lasgun and a Heavy Weapon.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Loader has a Lasgun, the Gunner is a little preoccupied. :P

[Dr_Ruminahui]

They only have 1 lasgun, but yes they can fire their lasgun and heavy weapon.

 

That's what common sense would suggest, but by my read of the rules nothing requires you to swap a lasgun for the heavy weapon - rather, all the heavy weapon team entries use the language of simply taking a heavy weapon.  Am I missing something?

 

Incidentally, a heavy weapon team in a heavy weapons squad doesn't seem to get any lasguns, as it lists the team as the base model, and from my recollection it doesn't start with any lasguns as starting equipment.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Chris521]

 

They only have 1 lasgun, but yes they can fire their lasgun and heavy weapon.

 

That's what common sense would suggest, but by my read of the rules nothing requires you to swap a lasgun for the heavy weapon - rather, all the heavy weapon team entries use the language of simply taking a heavy weapon.  Am I missing something?

 

It's on this list of things that have needed an faq for months, but somehow, didn't make it into the most recent one.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Chris521

[Tirak]

 

They only have 1 lasgun, but yes they can fire their lasgun and heavy weapon.

 

That's what common sense would suggest, but by my read of the rules nothing requires you to swap a lasgun for the heavy weapon - rather, all the heavy weapon team entries use the language of simply taking a heavy weapon.  Am I missing something?

 

Incidentally, a heavy weapon team in a heavy weapons squad doesn't seem to get any lasguns, as it lists the team as the base model, and from my recollection it doesn't start with any lasguns as starting equipment.

 

 

This unit contains 3 Heavy Weapons Teams. Each model is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades

 

Your mistake is thinking of the infantry in a HWT as 2 models, it is not. Think of it this way, each base has a Lasgun and a heavy weapon. The rule is clear.

[Plasmablasts]

Could the Grenadiers strategem be used with a demolition charge-armed SWS from Index: Imperium 2?

[Altasmurf]

They are grenades, so it'll work.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

 

Your mistake is thinking of the infantry in a HWT as 2 models, it is not. Think of it this way, each base has a Lasgun and a heavy weapon. The rule is clear.

 

 

But where exactly does it say that?

 

All it says is that for the infantry squad entry each guardsman gets frag grenades and a lasgun, and that two guardsmen may form a heavy weapons team that must take a heavy weapon.  The wording is the same for heavy weapon teams in veteran squads.

 

So, either the heavy weapons team in an infantry or veteran squad gets the equipment of the 2 guardsmen, or it doesn't.  So, it either has 2 lasguns, 2 frag grenades and a heavy weapon, or it just has a heavy weapon.  I can't see any permutation that makes it have 1 lasgun and a heavy weapon - a heavy vweapons team is not "a guardsman" (or "a veteran").  For RAW, I would ere towards the first interpretation, as unlike the other options for guardsmen, nothing says it has to swap or give up its weapons.

 

Unless there is a rule hidden away somewhere I can't see it.

 

Now, in a heavy weapons squad, it does say that each model has 1 lasgun & frag grenades, plus a heavy weapon (so, I my memory of that entry was wrong).  Interestingly, for command squads, it reads "each model" gets a lasgun and grenades.  A heavy weapon team in a command squad, being one model, would get lasgun.

 

Now, that is likely the RAI for all weapons teams, but... that certainly isn't how infantry and veteran heavy weapon teams are worded.

[Withershadow]

It says that in the data sheet profile. A heavy weapon team has its own profile and constitutes a single model. The guardsmen don't take their equipment with them when they join to become a heavy weapon team. They cease to exist and a new model type appears. Each model type a unit possesses has its own line on the data sheet.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Then I guess veteran and infantry squad heavy weapon teams don't get lasguns.

[Withershadow]

Technically correct.

[Halfpint100]

Then I guess veteran and infantry squad heavy weapon teams don't get lasguns.

 

They do, each profile says

"each model is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades" this also includes the heavy weapon team. The infantry squad says "each guardsmen is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades" so there could be some conflict there. But it also says "Two guardsmen become a heavy weapon team" and they have a lasgun and frag grenades.

 

I would say they were designed to have a lasgun as well. 

[Altasmurf]

This is a RAW RAI argument that will quickly balloon to unneeded proportions.

 

My two cents wither and the doc are right by the way the rules are written. It's going to be for every gaming group to decide what they want to do. My group lucky realize each team is meant to have a lasgun and have let me use them. But this is pretty much a group RAI thing and as per the codex only some heavy weapon teams have a lasgun apparently.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Altasmurf

[BurntheHeretic]

That is exactly how I read it as well. It´s literally what it says, and it makes sense: the gunner shoots the heavy weapon, the loader shoots his lasgun. I don´t think this needs an FAQ!

[Withershadow]

It's one of those common sense things that I think everyone would allow.  However, technically those mentioned heavy weapon teams indeed do not have a lasgun.  There are some bad people out there saying that the models merging into a heavy weapon team keep their old equipment, thus resulting in a guy shooting a lasgun/shotgun and heavy weapon team at the same time, which is ridiculous, and why we can't have nice things.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Common sense should also tell you the loader is busy being a loader and shouldn't get to shoot either, but hey, WAAC. 

[Emicus]

Or he isn't a loader but a spotter. Grabbing his rifle and laying down cover fire while the gunner reloads, but hey, realism.

[Mitchverr]

Common sense should also tell you the loader is busy being a loader and shouldn't get to shoot either, but hey, WAAC. 

 

Depends on the gun really, some weapons have a long enough "up time" that assistant gunners/loaders actually used their own firearm to protect them if the enemy was close enough to be an actual threat. IIRC this was a thing that happened in WW1/2 for lewis/bren teams for example, so could apply to say, a h.bolter fairly easily or lascannon, though mortar/autocannon might be different pending on feed system :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, I mean the Autocannon seems to have enough rounds in the mag for a few rounds of shooting. Leaves the other guy free for spotting, etc.