How to deal with Ultramarines?

[Lil Khorne]

Good day, lads. I want to ask you about how you deal with Ultramarines with Guilliman armies. I have played several games versus them and suddenly realized that I can't actually win these games against Guilliman + literally anything. I would not lie, my opponent is quite experienced player, still the army he plays is actually nothing special. It's all bout endless rerolls of everything, and I'm not that good at safe rolls (if this can be an issue ). When your opponent hits with 90% of everything and wounds with 80% of them hits, it's pretty difficult to survive, and I have no actual idea on how to counter this thing. It's usually Guilliman + centurions + any kind of heavy support, for example predators or land raider. 

My army is a mixture of detachments of different chaos legions. Commonly I bring some Spearhead detach. on Alpha (havocs, obliterators) and Batallion with Berzerkers + Chaos Lords in Rhinos (sometimes Chaos Land Raider) on World Eaters. 

I'm eager to hear your opinions on this topic, please share your thoughts and experience, thank you.

[the jeske]

A stop using land raiders, obliterators.

B stop mixing detachments from different legions unless your 100% sure how your army should work

C w40k is a shoting game, always was and always will be, if you decide to play melee you will be at a disadvetage most of the time

D G-man is [alongside his re-rolls, buffs etc] a proficient counter units. If you play a melee lists two things have to happen. A you need stuff that can deal with him. B you need to take multiples of it, because with all the re-rolling there is a high chance, a single of such option is going to die before it gets to engage G-man. This goes x2 if the unit is melee.

E melee army or not you still need support units. For chaos units [aside for FW stuff] this stuff like triple preds, knight or knights etc Invest in to does.

F transports are "worth" it if A your taking 4-5 melee squads in them and it would be good if they could shot[not a case of chaos units] B the transport is as close to invunerable as it is possible in 8th ed [not a case for chaos]. this leaves alfa strike as an option and playing a swarm list, probably a mix of that.

G marines are a better codex then the chaos marines one, this means you will always be at a disadventage, unless you go for a skew build [smite spam using FW dudes, taking magnus +brimstons and some demons etc]. So try to play the scenarios, and I do know it is easier said then done. If you play kill/kill point games, then... well I don't know how to help you.

[Lil Khorne]

Well, thank you, I'll take this in consideration. Still, I want to hear what is in your opinion good alpha strike for Chaos army?

 

 this leaves alfa strike as an option and playing a swarm list, probably a mix of that

[Mekhitar]

Double tapping slaanesh lascannon or ML havocs with prescience and VotLW. Glitterbomb cant't buff a LR that no longer exists, and they have the alpha strike to do it.

 

A round of havocs wiTh overcharged plasma followed by a charge from a DP with talons, I have found, often does the trick to take him down (the first time...).

 

Meltaguns are excellent character killers, but you need to throw enough to make him fail his 3++.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Mekhitar

[norngahl]

Take 3 Decimators with Soulburner and see Guilliman vaporize in a single turn.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Don't forget a sorcerer with Death Hex.  Turning off his 3++ is going to help put Guilliman down.

[ChazSexington]

Murder Sword. Watch Guilliman run. 

[Prot]

Don't forget a sorcerer with Death Hex.  Turning off his 3++ is going to help put Guilliman down.

 

This^.

 

If you're facing Guilliman regularly really it's not about shooting. It's about disabling him -before- shooting. The Astartes are not -great- with the psychic phase. It's mostly defensive... mostly. That's not a rule, but it's not particularly economical to get into psychics with Ultra the way it is for Chaos.

 

Use speed, and deep strike. Remove invuln saves, move twice, get into them, and into the vehicles especially. Guilliman is darn good but I see him taken down regularly with Death Hex, and Psychics. In fact I'm seeing more and more Culexus' because of this.

 

Oblits are solid now. I have no idea why anyone would dismiss them now. They're also showing up at high levels of play. Take VotLW if you need to put icing on the cake with them by shooting twice on drop in with MoS.. D.P's can get in range of deep striking Oblits quickly for aura buff, and DP's are pretty solid all around.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Prot

[the jeske]

 

Well, thank you, I'll take this in consideration. Still, I want to hear what is in your opinion good alpha strike for Chaos army?

 

 this leaves alfa strike as an option and playing a swarm list, probably a mix of that

 

big units of terminators deep striking with plasma, for example.

 

 

 

This^.

 

unless there are some strange spacing issues, it is not that easy to get off hex on [and am not talking about culexus abomination, lil doesn't play against that] G-man.

 

 

Oblits are solid now. I have no idea why anyone would dismiss them now. They're also showing up at high levels of play.

 

 

preds are easier to use, more resilient too, it is also 4 weapons vs 3. plus your never going to see oblits in a melee army.

 

 

Take 3 Decimators with Soulburner and see Guilliman vaporize in a single turn.

 

 

At best this will start a FW war, at worse his opponent will just play a soup list with culexus and chaos doesn't have a list that counters that and other lists at the same time, specially not while trying to do melee with zerkers.

[Prot]

 

 

This^.

 

unless there are some strange spacing issues, it is not that easy to get off hex on [and am not talking about culexus abomination, lil doesn't play against that] G-man.

 

 

 

 

 

- It's not about 'easy'. It's about using the tools to strip down a strong character of what typically keeps him alive. Saw this happen a few times myself... also happened at the Warhamme tournament this weekend. This is about using the tools available to the codex.

 

 

 

 

Oblits are solid now. I have no idea why anyone would dismiss them now. They're also showing up at high levels of play.

 

 

preds are easier to use, more resilient too, it is also 4 weapons vs 3. plus your never going to see oblits in a melee army.

 

 

 

No. Oblits drop where you want, cannot be shot in reserve (100% more survivable in reserves).

 

Oblits do not rely on multiplication for Strat use.

 

Oblits have indeed done very well in assault armies.

 

Terrain dense tables (IE: Any ITC event) will give Preds los issues. Oblits have no such issue.

 

Hard to use: Set up three vehicles. Hope they have LoS. Prepare an anti- Deep strike chaff unit. Hope you don't get alpha'd so you can use the Strategem. More difficult to fit in an Aura/requires a deep placed HQ for the Aura. Cannot move and shoot without penalty.

 

Easy to use: Keep in reserve. Come out when you want, best opportunity. Place near aura, perhaps in cover, perhaps on objective. Give them MoS, come out of the gate shooting twice. Use VotLW to increase effectiveness when needed. Move and Shoot at will.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Prot

[Iron Skull Mask]

I would advise to use a solid firebase and a void shield. Then fill up the rest with deep striking units. Tactics wise I was successful in my last game against guilliman SM by basically killing the stuff around Guilliman. VIctory will then depend on who shoots harder and saves better - you definitely should stand a chance and the void shield might just be what you need.

 

On Obliterators: I was also very sceptical of the Obliterators in this edition, but found that they are doing OK. 12 shots at a minimum strength of 7 doing 1 wound with DS 1 are not bad, and they get better when you roll higher bonuses. I still mourn the flexibility of switching weapons, but that's what we got right now. And hey, I'm happy beyond expression that we got decent legion traits in our codex this time around.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Iron Skull Mask

[Prot]

I would advise a solid firebase and a void shield. Then fill up the rest with deep striking units. Tactics wise I was successful in my last game to basically kill the stuff around guilliman. VIctory will then depend on who shoots harder and saves better - you definitely should definitely stand a chance and the void shield might just be what you need.

 

On Obliterators: I was also very sceptical of the Obliterators in this edition, but found that they are doing OK. 12 shots at a minimum strength of 7 doing 1 wound with DS 1 are not bad, and they get better when you roll higher bonuses. I still mourn the flexibility of switching weapons, but that's what we got right now. And hey, I'm happy beyond expression that we got decent legion traits in our codex this time around.

 

At the end of the day, it's sad to admit, but the Chaos Codex is not on par with what we're seeing now. This isn't a complaint, but I play a fair amount with this codex, and although I don't play Astra, I have lots of opponents who do. I think this is why GW put so much effort into Deathguard. There's still some really significant issues with the Chaos dex.

 

Specific to this thread it's a very tall order. Many people will advise you to go outside of the codex for sure. And while you can do that, I'm not sure if that's what you want to hear.

 

Honestly if you're playing Chaos... and I mean codex chaos stuff... you're doing it for the fun, for the challenge, and/or perhaps the background.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Prot

[RapatoR]

Use more terrain. 8th is not meant to be played on the tables with lots of open lines of fire.

Edited October 17, 2017 by RapatoR

[Ishagu]

Hello my Heretical brothers.

I will share, honestly, the ultimate Tactic for dealing with Guilliman and the Ultramarines:

 

Plentiful Line of Sight blocking terrain!

 

You'll find that Guilliman armies are not mobile and are very slow to reposition if you deploy outside of their firing lanes. Simply play the objective game, keep units out of LoS. Once the Ultras break off to engage you counter them with your own units.

[the jeske]

I kind of a doubt that someone who buys a G-man army is going to be ok with regulary playing on a table that is skewed against their army.

[Ishagu]

Well, you want it to be reasonable but at the same time an easy win is just a boring game.

 

I personally enjoy high volumes of terrain because it makes movement and positioning so much more important. I've literally lost games because a sneaky Cultist unit has remained out of LoS and sat on objectives.

 

It rewards more mobile armies and less so Gunlines.

[RapatoR]

I kind of a doubt that someone who buys a G-man army is going to be ok with regulary playing on a table that is skewed against their army.

Its not so much skewed, as meant to be played with lot of terrain. I am not sure if it was stated by GW directly, but it was certainly stated by playtesters at FLG.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

GW should really makes rules about table construction on matched play. 

I heard some rules like "D3 LoS blocking terrain by quarter of table" or "1 LoS blocking terrain by sixth of table". 

 

But nothing official (for this edition). 

[Prot]

GW should really makes rules about table construction on matched play. 

I heard some rules like "D3 LoS blocking terrain by quarter of table" or "1 LoS blocking terrain by sixth of table". 

 

But nothing official (for this edition). 

 

Maybe not 'official' but watching the grant tournament heat 1 games at Warhammer World, the tables were set up by GW and had substantial LOS blocking terrain.

 

Like many have said, even ITC goes out of their way to say that the game is better played in this manner. Their own tournaments actually define bottom floors in ruins as blocked.

[Panzer]

 

 Their own tournaments actually define bottom floors in ruins as blocked.

And here I go and do the extra work of properly barricading the bottom level of my ruins...silly me. :D

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

IIRC, the Rulebook suggests at least one LoS blocking terrai piece per 2'x2' square of table.  

 

They'll never legislate terrain placement; they expect that you're out for a lark and not that you're so desperate to win that you'll jerrymander the board to your advantage.

[GreyCrow]

When I saw most Marines have a really hard time against Chaos, was when the Chaos Players would overwhelm the Marines with bodies (both Cultist and Astartes and special units).

 

Like Jeske said, shooting is particularly strong in 8th (as it makes sense), and let's be fair Chaos shooty tools are much less impressive than loyalists, with also a lot less delivery options (no pods).

 

So, rather than entering a match about quality of units, I see Chaos players being quite efficient when they use the numbers' game played with in synergy with the support units.

 

I mean, yeah, you are likely to lose a lot more models than regular Astartes, but you have ways to guarantee cheap board control!

As a Marines, one thing that scares me serisouly is seeing more bodies than I have bullets, especially with the new AP mechanics.

 

At 1000 points, it's super easy to field 40 cultists + 10 CSM + 10 Terminators with combo plasmas + HQ, and that's quite and impressive sight, and with proper placement and target confusion, it can be a pain to deal with.

Might not be the most competitive list, nor the most glamorous of builds.

But once the enemy starts spreading fire to deal with the Terminators, that's a lot of bodies that will reach charge range and win thru weight of dice.

Or he'll get melted by combi plasmas.

 

Also, the synergies with Marks and Gods is super appealing on quality units, but one hidden gem is how they synergies on super large units of rabble!

I mean come on, FNP on cultist blobs with the Sorcerers' power is quite a pain.

 

As others mentionned, Sorcs and psychics are a serious upgrade vs Marine's warpcraft. Use the warp.

 

---

 

TL;DR Chaos SM has less remarkable units than SM, but it allows for a quite impressive numbers game va quality that marines have !

[Panzer]

Eh...cheap infantry really isn't a problem for loyalist marines. The AssBack is cheap and puts out 12 S6 AP-1 shots each turn. You can easily fit 3 or more of them in a 1k list.

[GreyCrow]

To be honest, cheap infantry isn't a problem for anyone.

 

And each Assback kills about 6 cultists a turn, which is about 30 points worth of cultists.

 

Each shot at cultist is not aimed at more critical units.

Each Razorback equipped to deal with rabble is not super well equipped to deal with tougher targets (1 TEQ a turun)

 

Once again, it's not about surviving unscathed, it's about saturating and distracting. If the opponent wants to waste shots at the cultists and not touch the tougher guys, that's all fine but bad for board control. It's totally fine if the cultists die, they are meat shields for more interesting units.

 

If the opponent decides to prioritize juicier targets, you still have a lot of bodies for board control and silencing guns in fall back scenarios.

 

What I'm getting at, the Chaos Codex just doesn't have the variety of shoots units that the loyalists have aside from a couple of gems. And making them work well costs a hefty amount of command points, which is not the case for loyalists.

(Aside from Chaos Terminators, I don't see a unit that has similar punch to Sternguards or Hellblasters. Devastators are straight up better than Havocs with Signum and Cherub)

 

Chaos units outperform loyalists at closer ranges (Raptors vs Assault Marines for example if we take the less impressive units), but close range without good delivery mechanisms like pods implies that a lot of casualties will be taken.

 

Hence having more bodies. And rabble for tactical annoyance ;)

 

When playing Marines and facing an elite heavy Chaos player, it's almost a godsend. Yes units are cool, but if he has as many models as me, my army is at an advantage just for the straight up better shooting. I will kill lots of his models at range and blunt his assault so by turn 3 he is not a threat.

 

If he outnumbers me by 50% or 100% with some shenanigans, I will probably kill as many models but get rekt once he reaches melee. Especially if he forces me to deal with pesky annoying cultists.

[Raven1]

I would suggest Slaanesh Obliterators backed by a sorcerer in terminator armor.