Devastation of Baal - Guy Haley - Discussion/Spoilers

[Panzer]

If I recall correctly Seth was against Dante letting the Knights of Blood help defending Baal? Or at least voiced his concern? Gotta love that he and part of his Chapter got saved by them. A very fitting way for the Knights of Blood to go.

Since it happened on Baal Prime I fear it won't get much screentime in Devastation of Baal but I still can't wait for that book. Gotta know everything about it!

 

Seriously tho. Despite them being gone now (unless GW pulls something stupid and goes "yeah but that weren't all of them there!") this scene makes me feel more proud and hyped about them than the "Chapter X won important battle Y" stories we usually get. A truly heroic end for a very tragic but loyal Chapter.

Edited November 12, 2017 by sfPanzer

[deathspectersgt7]

Nobody told us !!!

I'am building an all successors force based on the book.

[Panzer]

I scrapped my KoB plans....to build Primaris KoB to honor the sacrifice they made for the sake of Baal and all BA and their successors. I mean I heard a rumour that this is going to be a thing in official fluff even but I decided to do so the minute I learned about Primaris and about how close the defense of Baal was. I just need some dedicated melee Primaris units to get started. :P

[Cleon]

 

If there were any surviving Knights of Blood, it'd make sense for them to be subtly rolled into the newly founded Primaris tribute chapter as 'cultural advisers' officially from other successors.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It worked pretty well when Huron did it with the Tiger Claws. Well, at least until everything else went crazy...

[Frater Cornelius]

What I am getting from this is that the moons of Baal are gone, half of the Baal system is gone and nearly all BA-related Chapters are ground to near-extinction?

I noticed the 8ed rulebook mentioning that after Guilliman arrived there was a great rebuilding of Chapter and worlds was undertaken. How do they get resources from across the Rift? Is there anything left to salvage? Or are we to assume that 80% of BA and its successors are now Primaris, paving the way to the end of BA as we know them? What about the proximity to the Rift? How do you rebuild worlds so close to what is essentially 1000 Eyes of Terror glued together? Is it even sustainable?

Was there anything positive for BA out of this, or are they all shades of done for? I need a little hope that isn't tied Guilliman if I am to survive :D

So, many questions. So little sense Oo Edited November 15, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Jarl Caldersson]

What I am getting from this is that the moons of Baal are gone, half of the Baal system is gone and nearly all BA-related Chapters are ground to near-extinction?

I noticed the 8ed rulebook mentioning that after Guilliman arrived there was a great rebuilding of Chapter and worlds was undertaken. How do they get resources from across the Rift? Is there anything left to salvage? Or are we to assume that 80% of BA and its successors are now Primaris, paving the way to the end of BA as we know them? What about the proximity to the Rift? How do you rebuild worlds so close to what is essentially 1000 Eyes of Terror glued together? Is it even sustainable?

Was there anything positive for BA out of this, or are they all shades of done for? I need a little hope that isn't tied Guilliman if I am to survive :D

So, many questions. So little sense Oo

I read a rumor (SALT!!!) that there is a way across near Fenris. (Now for the really salty part) Fenris is acting as a sort of Pariah or anti-warp bubble.

 

I don't believe it but the map it look plausible

https://imgur.com/a/NzhFI

[sockwithaticket]

Saw this tidbit in the Tyranid codex today in regards to the Knights of Blood: 

 

 "Only the sacrifice of the Knights of Blood, an excommunicated successor Chapter who had nonetheless been accepted as allies by Chapter Master Dante, allowed the survivors to board their vessels and escape, as Baal Prime was overwhelmed by warp-spawned monstrosities. As Seth’s forces retreated, they caught one last glimpse of the Knights of Blood, hurling themselves into the thick of close combat with mindless ferocity, fully enveloped by the madness of the Black Rage."

I am very much not a fan of this development. Hopefully it's a case of the truth is anything but absolute in the Imperium and the official record not always matching reality.

 

Losing a loyal yet excommunicated chapter makes the universe a little less rich imo

[Panzer]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/15/space-marine-conquests-explained/
 

Now, if the promise of high octane, bloody conquests on an epic scale hasn’t piqued your interests, what if I said the series would let fans delve into the iconic Space Marines like never before? Not only will you get to explore the psyche, mentality and battle tactics of your favourite, established Chapters, but you’ll get to see the Primaris Space Marines in all their Mk X power armoured glory, and how they adjust to life in their new Chapters.

I guess it will tell us a bit more of what happens after the invasion after all!
 
 
It also answers the question of why an unknown Blood Angel is on the cover

Each cover shows a single Space Marine who visually represents key themes, aspects and battle tactics of their Chapter. The Devastation of Baal features a Blood Angel, his noble face framed half in shadow, half in light, to represent the duality of his Chapter’s nature – the constant battle of light against darkness as the Black Rage seeks to consume them.

Edited November 15, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Jarl Caldersson]

That phrase "you’ll get to see the Primaris Space Marines in all their Mk X power armoured glory, and how they adjust to life in their new Chapters." gives me high hopes we see unique Primaris for each non codex chapter and maybe some more flowing back to our codex brothers. If so this may be a turn into point to give BA more identity on the tabletop.

 

Also is the book cover Marines Primaris or standard? It made me think they are Primaris but they look like normal Marines.

[Panzer]

I don't see any hint of unique Primaris in that sentence. Just that there will be Primaris in the book and that there's still a chapter to join instead of being the chapter. ^^

 

The Marines on the cover aren't Primaris.

[deathspectersgt7]

The Primaris I do believe comes near the end when The Hoary old croaker shows up to rescue everyone. The Marine on the cover is not a primmie he is not a named BA . But if you look at the bare head on the BA upgrade pack you will see thet are the same.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think the indication of the new units is from the Primaris Marines 'adjusting to life in their new Chapters'. The Blood Angels Primaris will be adjusting to whatever elements of the Red Thirst/Black Rage affect them, as well as the focus, strategy-wise, on close-range combat and melee.

 

I mean, I can't imagine the Primaris joining the White Scars are going to stay as mainly footsloggers, without seeking some sort of upscaled bike for them to use. The Chapters are going to mould the new Primaris in their image, where possible.

The Blood Angels are most likely going to be saying "oh, that thirst for the blood of your enemies? Yeah, you get that. Son of Sanguinius and all. Why do you think so many of us carry chainswords? You might want to look into that yourself. Just don't go crazy, m'kay?"

 

I like the hints of a civil war amongst the Dark Angels and their new brothers, given the Unforgiven seem to be wanting to exclude the newcomers from what is essentially a cult, and the Primaris are wanting answers as to why their Captains are excluded from the other high-ranking meetings for apparently no reason.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Lord_Caerolion

[Jarl Caldersson]

Lord_Caerolion hit it on the head.

 

I can see Primaris hitting the SW/BA and being asked "What can you do?" and saying "Well I am tougher, stronger, bigger, and I have this Cawl Bolter" meanwhile the SW/BA going "That's great, we need you to rush into combat. Where is your chainsword? What do you mean you don't have one?"

 

The chapter is going to influence the primaris. RG/Cawl may have made them but the chapters will mold them. This is the "struggle" the Primaris will have. Going from their ultra-codex ways and being forced into non-codex or chapter specific stratedgies. They are going to have to learn to fight like their chapteers do, and work with them. If all their chapters are riding  Fast Attack or bikes and charging into combat, meanwhile they are footslogging it, they are a hindrance.

[Lord_Caerolion]

"So you're bigger, tougher and stronger, and you want to... not beat things up? You just want to shoot? Fancy new guns are good and all, but have you not heard the famous Imperial proverb, 'drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword'? I'm gonna have to have you come for a chat with our Chaplain here. He's a little famous, named Lemartes. He'll convince you."

Edited November 16, 2017 by Lord_Caerolion

[Kasper_Hawser]

"So you're bigger, tougher and stronger, and you want to... not beat things up? You just want to shoot? Fancy new guns are good and all, but have you not heard the famous Imperial proverb, 'drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword'? I'm gonna have to have you come for a chat with our Chaplain here. He's a little famous, named Lemartes. He'll convince you."

 

LOL, my thoughts exactly for the SW. DA maybe not so much.

[Panzer]

Eh I don't see that "adjusting" part being any hint of something like that. It also just means learning the way a Chapter is organized, learning which Captain acts which way and why Blood Angels think of regular humans so highly while other Chapters don't, their humility, that they are doing tons of art and for what purpose etc. etc.

It doesn't automatically mean "welcome to the Blood Angels, here's your Jump Pack, here is your fancy armor and here's your sword. Go and hit things!" After all Blood Angels have a ton of Tacticals, Devastators, Sternguards, Scouts etc. as well. We are NOT a purely melee based chapter. It just comes naturally with our instincts and how strong those are represented in Primaris is yet to be seen...and even then they would take over non-melee roles like Intercessor, Aggressor, Inceptor (which work more like Crisis Suits than Deathcompany) or Reiver since it's just tactically better to have those elements as well instead of being an all-out melee army.

 

Also about the bigger and stronger....so you mean all Marines should be melee units since they are bigger and stronger than Guardsmen?

Edited November 16, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Lord_Caerolion]

Eh I don't see that "adjusting" part being any hint of something like that. It also just means learning the way a Chapter is organized, learning which Captain acts which way and why Blood Angels think of regular humans so highly while other Chapters don't, their humility, that they are doing tons of art and for what purpose etc. etc.

It doesn't automatically mean "welcome to the Blood Angels, here's your Jump Pack, here is your fancy armor and here's your sword. Go and hit things!" After all Blood Angels have a ton of Tacticals, Devastators, Sternguards, Scouts etc. as well. We are NOT a purely melee based chapter. It just comes naturally with our instincts and how strong those are represented in Primaris is yet to be seen...and even then they would take over non-melee roles like Intercessor, Aggressor, Inceptor (which work more like Crisis Suits than Deathcompany) or Reiver since it's just tactically better to have those elements as well instead of being an all-out melee army.

 

Also about the bigger and stronger....so you mean all Marines should be melee units since they are bigger and stronger than Guardsmen?

No, but the teachings of our Chapter revolve around the Flaw, both embracing and resisting the Red Thirst, which certainly impacts how the Blood Angels act in battle. Less "we love hitting things. Grab a chainsword, strap on a jump pack, and show those World Eaters just what Rip and Tear really is", and more "the Red Thirst is a burden on all our souls. Use its urges to strengthen your arm, but take care not to fall too far into its embrace. It is in the whirlwind of furious melee where we can anoint ourselves in bloody libation, to ease the pull upon our souls. Remember though to always act as the Angel did. We embrace our darkness not for its own sake, but to further the light. It would consume you if it could."

[Panzer]

 

Eh I don't see that "adjusting" part being any hint of something like that. It also just means learning the way a Chapter is organized, learning which Captain acts which way and why Blood Angels think of regular humans so highly while other Chapters don't, their humility, that they are doing tons of art and for what purpose etc. etc.

It doesn't automatically mean "welcome to the Blood Angels, here's your Jump Pack, here is your fancy armor and here's your sword. Go and hit things!" After all Blood Angels have a ton of Tacticals, Devastators, Sternguards, Scouts etc. as well. We are NOT a purely melee based chapter. It just comes naturally with our instincts and how strong those are represented in Primaris is yet to be seen...and even then they would take over non-melee roles like Intercessor, Aggressor, Inceptor (which work more like Crisis Suits than Deathcompany) or Reiver since it's just tactically better to have those elements as well instead of being an all-out melee army.

 

Also about the bigger and stronger....so you mean all Marines should be melee units since they are bigger and stronger than Guardsmen?

No, but the teachings of our Chapter revolve around the Flaw, both embracing and resisting the Red Thirst, which certainly impacts how the Blood Angels act in battle. Less "we love hitting things. Grab a chainsword, strap on a jump pack, and show those World Eaters just what Rip and Tear really is", and more "the Red Thirst is a burden on all our souls. Use its urges to strengthen your arm, but take care not to fall too far into its embrace. It is in the whirlwind of furious melee where we can anoint ourselves in bloody libation, to ease the pull upon our souls. Remember though to always act as the Angel did. We embrace our darkness not for its own sake, but to further the light. It would consume you if it could."

 

Exactly. And for that teaching you don't need any unique unit. BA Tacticals & Co did just fine so far with their Red Thirst.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Not entirely, we certainly have different loadouts that Ultramarine Tactical Squads do, to take advantage of said teachings. Something that could be reflected in our Primaris.

 

In saying that, no, I don't think we necessarily need a Primaris equivalent of actual Assault Marines, with jump-packs and chainswords, just so we can have Rip and Tear Primaris. I'd be more hopeful to see Inceptors with twin Heavy Flamers, or an option for frag cannons on our Intercessors, for example.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Lord_Caerolion

[Panzer]

I mean I'm not saying that there won't ever be BA unique Primaris units and in fact I'd love getting some but I just don't seeing any hint for that in that quote. ^^

[Frater Cornelius]

I doubt BA will get new Primaris and that existing ones will be adjusted. For one, the boxes exist, so BA and DA will get the rather monotone and partcially useless selection they gave SM. And the reason I do not think it is time for new Primaris is that C:SM will lose their unique selling point. I have a feeling that faction-unique Primaris will have a long way to go and new models will first be introduced to C:SM and then added to the other SM factions. I believe that Primaris for the three unique SM books will be an afterthought, whereas C:SM will be their primary spot.

[Blindhamster]

I dunno, there was talk that there would be unique primaris characters in one thread I saw, a primaris sanguinary priest with slightly different rules seems plausible.

 

I think actual models will be limited to a chapter specific upgrade sprue. For BA I imagine it would have:

 

- chainsword arm(s), this was hinted at in our rules that say our sergeant for intercessors get one. I do wonder if we may see an option to give them to other models too maybe.

- an alternative hand for apothecary that has a chalice, whilst our existing sprue has one, it isn't a good fit for the model.

- a couple of helmets with blood drops.

- a couple of bare heads with our signature hair style on primaris shaped and sized heads.

- shoulder pads for intercessors and aggressors

- random accessories.

 

If we are really lucky there may be another weapon or two that are unique to us that our primaris captain could get access take (inferno pistol and/or hand flamer)

[Panzer]

Yeah I definitely do expect an upgrade sprue with the contents you listed.

[Anamnesis]

I have to admit a simple chainsword would be really nice, but honestly i expect nothing more than a upgrade sprue.

Also i hope it's better than the UM one, which is nothing to write home about saddly..