Devastation of Baal - Guy Haley - Discussion/Spoilers

[Djangomatic82]

With the return of Ka'Bandah to the physical realm, how likely do you think it is that he attempts a replay of the events of Signus Prime against the presumably cured Primaris Marines? Is the Ragefire still a thing?

[brother_b]

wow, what a book. I actually believe its the best blood angels book I have ever read. I have since re-read some of the pages in an attempt to understand just where it leaves the sons of Sanguinius going forward in the fluff and on the table top.

 

Major spoilers underneath, I urge you not to read them unless you have read or do not inted to read the book. its a really good book.

 

Fluff-The biggest change to the setting to me is the fact blood angels space marines are essentially dead,to be replaced wholesale with blood angels primaris marines now and apon the death of the remaining 300 blood angels space marines. after the battle against the tyranids when Dante is conversing with Seth and after that with the remaining command of the blood angels (captain karlaen, Mephiston, Corbulo et..) it is discussed and basically all new aspirants from now on will become primaris marines and not space marines 

 

tabletop - Short term I don't see much changing for our models especially in the upcoming codex we will still be able to use space marines and all will be catered for. long term tho it appears that unless something drastic happens we wont see any new blood angels specific space marines (if any space marines at all), instead everything new will be primaris marines.

 

fluff - next we have the unique units to the blood angels, sanguinary guard are down to one marine called Caraeus he is to become the new Exalted Herald of Sanguinius (the previous one being Sepharan). its said Dante will have new sanguinary guard as he has a plethora of heroes to choose from now.

Death company- did well all dying in combat with the xenos foe and any number of the 300 remaining space marines could fall in future battles. The beasts of Amareo locked away in the tower came out and kicked some serious butt. lastly their is a librarian dreadnought in a vault under the arx angelicom that is 3000 years old and most probably survived as he can not leave the place he is in. No Primaris marine has suffered from the black rage during the Indomitus crusade and the majority of people asked about the red thirst have no idea about it.

 

Tabletop - the sanguinary guard are fine as finding 20 heroes out of the 300ish that just survived that battle will be easy, tho I don't see Caraeus getting his own model the title he is given seems to suggest a Sargent type figure among the sanguinary guard. there is a possibility of primaris sanguinary guard tho in the future. the death comany are also ok short tearm as long as the 300 space marines are alive but could go the way of the dinosaurs unless the primaris change and start falling. as for the beasts of Amareo we could see these become a unit in game at some point as the red thirst is possibly still a part of the primaris marines even tho it could be in an extremely minute amount of marines.

 

All the special characters Gw has models for survived the battle and their armor repaired (so can assume Dante's jump pack was also repaired after it was smashed by the swarmlord), the most note worthy thing being that during a conversation between Dante and Guilliman, Guilliman tel's Dante that he no longer needs to pose as Sanguinius and he can put aside his weariness. To me this means we could see a new model for Dante, one where he is not wearing the face of his primarch

My fears confirmed. I wonder what will happen. Thanks for this information.

[Rafen IX]

I genuinely enjoyed this book. Thought it made the Tyranids seem like an almost hopelessly unbeatable threat. And throughout it Dante has impressed me as a character. I even thought the way Guilliman treated the BA was handled well and respectfully. Didn't expect Dante to be made Imperial Commander of the entire Dark Imperium (or Nihilus whatever you want to call it). I was secretly hoping he would be made a Primaris if only for a new model haha.

Fantastic book.

[Spagunk]

R.I.P. Blood angels.

Welcome Primaris "Red Marines"

just trying to be a bit cheeky. Edited November 20, 2017 by Spagunk

[Panzer]

Given that this whole thread has a spoiler warning, do we need spoiler tags in every post?

Yes because there's the general talking about spoilers and straight out summarizing of important parts of the novel one might not want to read. ^^

[The Unseen]

So, as I thought.

 

Where are all those people that were saying primaris and marines were going to co-exist for the forseeable future?

Yeah. /s

 

Now it's 300 Blood Angel Vets left, and the rest of the chapter is dead, and all the reinforcements are going to be more primaris marines.

 

GW doesn't know what to do with BA, so their just making them Red Ultras instead.

Problem solved.

 

And before people start hollering about *you can still use your models*, of course I can, GW still has BA specific kits to sell out of first. But fluffwise? Yeah, marines are getting replaced. And the transitionary period for the models won't last forever.

[Panzer]

So, as I thought.

 

Where are all those people that were saying primaris and marines were going to co-exist for the forseeable future?

Yeah. /s

 

Now it's 300 Blood Angel Vets left, and the rest of the chapter is dead, and all the reinforcements are going to be more primaris marines.

 

GW doesn't know what to do with BA, so their just making them Red Ultras instead.

Problem solved.

 

And before people start hollering about *you can still use your models*, of course I can, GW still has BA specific kits to sell out of first. But fluffwise? Yeah, marines are getting replaced. And the transitionary period for the models won't last forever.

Well I for one was always talking about the crunch and non-apocalyptic events when talking about normal Marines not disappearing any time soon. And as far as we know they are still staying for a while in the rules at least. :P

[brother_b]

I foresee a future much like AOS. We'll be able to use some of our old miniatures, and they'll be sold until the kits are gone. After that, there will be a dumbing down of all factions and the eventual result will be a big 4-6 armies supported. Let's enjoy 8th while we can, and revel in the glory of the Blood Angels!

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the Flesh Tearers...

 

I am completely fine with the idea of the new primaris brothers escorting the old cadre to battle, watching them succumb to the fury and turn into death company material with sadness, maintaining fire discipline to buy time for the reckless chargers.

 

Then the old cadre die off eventually and the BA+successors are nothing but UM in red. Girlyman wins over another chapter. No, the thirst and rage are essential to the BA. Their flaw is their character. This is the same as the SW, as much as I hate the potrayal and Wulfen models it is their heritage and uniqueness.

Okay let's be real for once....do you guys really really seriously believe that GW would do something ridiculous as turning BA into UM in red? Everything they did so far in 8th is to make subfactions more different, not more similar. It would also be an extremely dumb move marketing-wise.

Take away the thirst and rage and what are the BAs? You lose their unique units save the Baal predator, Furiosa Dread, and a unique honor guard. Of those only the Sanguinary Guard help define the BAs, but as the 300 BA die off so will that.

 

So what remains? A codex compliant chapter that uses Primaris, with a unique past like all the other 1st founding chapters and thus UM in red.

 

What have they done to make BA more unique like you said?

[Robbienw]

That sucks :(

[Blindhamster]

guys, seriously.

Can we try not being negative nancies for a change?

 

As for uniqueness? Are you seriously trying to say black templars or raven guard are "just" black ultramarines?

Since fear to tread arrived, we've known that one of Sanguinius' deepest desires was to cure his sons of the thirst.

We also know from the many books, campaign supplements and even a warhammer world campaign that Corbulos sole mission has been to find a cure for both the black rage and the red thirst. 

Prior to the black rage becoming a defining part of the blood angels, they were still a unique legion with a unique way of fighting.

If forgeworld can make them have thematic rules without any focus on the need to drink blood or visions of the primarchs last moments, i've little doubt that GW can too.



Also, even if we lose the red thirst, it doesn't mean the aggression side of it goes, even during the heresy the Blood Angels were a shock trooper legion, with a predisposition for flying and close combat. BUT incidents of the red thirst showing its ugly head were literally one in tens of thousands at most.

Let's not all start screaming till we see the actual rules... yeah?

 

 

p.s. I for one am interested to see the BA be explored in a way OTHER than their paired flaws for a change, lets face it, we complain that its all that gets focused on, so it could be great to see some other angles explored.

p.p.s. We also have no idea if the flaw (either of them!) has truly been removed, or if it will be a lamenters affair of coming back even worse than before.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Sete]

Don't forget the Iron hands. And yes they are.

Just a colour scheme.

GW does not give a :cuss about the Templars RG or IH.

 

About the novel, read the spoilers and it seemed interesting. Always liked Haley books.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Sete

[Blindhamster]

That's fine, you're a bitter son of dorn. I'm a proud angel of the blood tribe and believe "There is still Hope".

 

Any true son of sanguinius should feel the same and remember his teachings!

[Sete]

Booby G will fix everything up :D Edited November 20, 2017 by Sete

[Karhedron]

Since fear to tread arrived, we've known that one of Sanguinius' deepest desires was to cure his sons of the thirst.

 

We also know from the many books, campaign supplements and even a warhammer world campaign that Corbulos sole mission has been to find a cure for both the black rage and the red thirst. 

 

Prior to the black rage becoming a defining part of the blood angels, they were still a unique legion with a unique way of fighting.p.p.s. We also have no idea if the flaw (either of them!) has truly been removed, or if it will be a lamenters affair of coming back even worse than before.

The fluff that defined the BAs background is part what drew many of us to play them in the first place. Their fighting style in the GC is not the reason I play them in 40K so saying their are returning to an older style is no comfort to me.

 

However interesting it may be from a story point of view to bring the Blood Angels a cure, from a setting point of view it is a disappointment. Blood Angels were forever caught between the darkness and the light, between hunger and humanity, rage and nobility. If you take that away, what is left is little more than red Ultramarines.

 

Cured Blood Angels lose a large part of their tragic appeal. It is not just a case of whether I can carry on using my Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, it is what those units mean. The most interesting thing about the possibility of a cure is the quest for it. Once it is found, the events that occur after being cured are a lot less interesting.

[Pendent]

At long last it finally feels like GW understand how to write the Blood Angels in a compelling fashion. While for the moment it might looks like our flaws have been taken away I would be completely shocked if they didn't either come back in some form or get replaced by a different and potentially worse flaw for the Primaris. Remember- it's early days yet for the Primaris and there's no way the Chaos Gods aren't going to be trying their best to corrupt them. Maybe for us Ka'Banda will re-awaken the red thirst in the new recruits or something.


I completely agree that it would be terrible if the flaws of our chapter were completely removed at no cost. I just can't see GW completely abandoning such a compelling bit of storytelling, particularly after they're finally nailing our flavor down after so long. It may take a bit of time before we start seeing whatever they're going to do but it will have to be something. For now, it sounds like the more noble side of the chapter is resurgent and we should enjoy it while we can before the other shoe drops.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I definitely think we're going to see a Khorne Codex soon, in which will include Ka'Banda as a new special character, or at the very least have him spread his curse again. He hates the Blood Angels too much to see them escape his punishment.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I definitely think we're going to see a Khorne Codex soon, in which will include Ka'Banda as a new special character, or at the very least have him spread his curse again. He hates the Blood Angels too much to see them escape his punishment.

 

 

I hope nothing worst than the Red Thirst/Black Rage happens. It was low key enough that it wasn't overly bearing like the SWs wulfen, but it was deep enough that it did give the BAs a grave flaw. I can see Ka'banda spreading the curse again or something similiar.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Gonna have to read it for myself. Thanks again for the spoilers all, the suspense was getting to me =)

 

@BlindHamster

I will stand the rampart and face the codex with you. I still have hope as a Son of Sanguinius.

You should know I feel this might indeed be our last stand together as we were before brother.

Like Sanguinius, we will meet this fate.

My forces hope not for red water however... no the red water does not satisfy... We Thirst for BLOOD !! 

As do all true Sons of Sanguinius...

 

 

Decidedly disappointed in the no BA replacements for the old marine formations fluff.

I can live with everything else really - like it or not. That is the bit that has me feeling screwed by GW.

 

Sum of all fears for a long time player with shelves of old marines it sounds like ...

That is so disappointing to read. Still processing where I am gonna land with my feelings about it.

 

Although I had suspected something like this writing on the wall might happen. I had hoped GW wouldn't do it for a long long time; if ever, but it's only been a few months.

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Kasper_Hawser]

I doubt the old guard of the Blood Angels will have too much trouble reforging a new identity under the circumstances, Besides, it's too early to tell whether the Primaris are really that "pure" and "hard to corrupt". Heck, I'm willing to bet Cawl hasn't completely cured the rage/thirst, merely suppressed it. 

 

As blindhamster says, it's too early to tell whether or not the flaws in the geneseed are completely eliminated in the Primaris. Although for them to survive the Indomitus Crusade and still come out with no crazy marines or werewolf marines speaks potently of their gene stability.

 

Then again, all it takes is for the Chaos Gods to execute a plan like Signus Prime or Warzone Fenris and voila! We give you Red Thirst/Rage Primaris or Werewolf Primaris. And Ka'bandha has been popping his head out in the fluff since early 8th edition as though telling us, don't forget I'm still around, no bugs going to annihilate the vampire Space Marines before I do.

 

Really sad to see the BA get to the point of Flesh Tearers, but against the Hive Fleet, I suppose it's inevitable. Does feel like they'll be pushing the Primaris models to BA players through fluff if not crunch, but if I were BA, i would still be using my Sanguinary Guard, Priests, Death Company even after they're supposedly wiped out in fluff.

 

Here's to hoping for better times ahead for your upcoming codex. Hopefully my Wolves won't suffer too much "Primaris pushing" as well. 

[Jarl Caldersson]

I had a thought... since the Primaris didn't drink from the blood of a Sanguinary Priest... maybe they don't have it? Perhaps once they get initiated and drink blood from a priest they will gain these flaws? I don't know just spitballing it.

[roodie]

I had a thought... since the Primaris didn't drink from the blood of a Sanguinary Priest... maybe they don't have it? Perhaps once they get initiated and drink blood from a priest they will gain these flaws? I don't know just spitballing it.

 

That's actually plausible!

[Kasper_Hawser]

I had a thought... since the Primaris didn't drink from the blood of a Sanguinary Priest... maybe they don't have it? Perhaps once they get initiated and drink blood from a priest they will gain these flaws? I don't know just spitballing it.

 

Damn, and now we have another connundrum on how the Primaris are GOING to be made and how the old Sanguinary priests are going to reconcile the new AND old Primaris recruits to the Blood Angel traditions.

 

Sigh, I don't envy Dante, Corbulo and what's left of the command structure, a lifetime of fighting the curse only to discover some bloody tech-priest had done most of the work long ago. Although as mentioned, we STILL don't know how the heck ALL the geneseed were supposedly cured off their current quirks and flaws. At the most simple, the Imperial Fists suddenly able to sleep without sleeping and spit acid again, to the Black Rage and Wulfen being eliminated.

 

Until I see proof that Guilliman was told of the Red Thirst flaws during the Imperium Secundus era, and therefore told Cawl to help research a cure in the 10K period, I can't accept that the Primaris are totally incapable of succumbing to the thirst. However I don't think so considering that him and Sanguinus were never close and I can hardly envision Sanguinus trusting Guilliman with such a terrible secret.

 

The worst we could see, and has been mentioned before? The Primaris were created with the forbidden knowledge of Chaos, thereby contaminating the entire Adeptus Astartes structure as they fill in the gap. Or even more embarassing? Created from geneseed of traitor primarchs. Can you imagine waking up one day and instead of Granddaddy papa smurf being your primoginetor, it's Lorgar? After all, majority of the traitor primarchs didn't have any real genetic flaws (unless you count their personality quirks like eternal rage, being fabulous and being batman moody), so their geneseed is just as capable of creating new marines.

[Blindhamster]

Let us stand shoulder to shoulder in these coming trials!

 

Stand tall and proud sons of sanguinius, we are brothers in blood, more so than any other primarchs children!

 

Guillimans reinforcements are of the blood too, the priests confirm it, let us show them how a true son of sanguinius fights!!

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

I had a thought... since the Primaris didn't drink from the blood of a Sanguinary Priest... maybe they don't have it? Perhaps once they get initiated and drink blood from a priest they will gain these flaws? I don't know just spitballing it.

 

Damn, and now we have another connundrum on how the Primaris are GOING to be made and how the old Sanguinary priests are going to reconcile the new AND old Primaris recruits to the Blood Angel traditions.

 

Sigh, I don't envy Dante, Corbulo and what's left of the command structure, a lifetime of fighting the curse only to discover some bloody tech-priest had done most of the work long ago. Although as mentioned, we STILL don't know how the heck ALL the geneseed were supposedly cured off their current quirks and flaws. At the most simple, the Imperial Fists suddenly able to sleep without sleeping and spit acid again, to the Black Rage and Wulfen being eliminated.

 

Until I see proof that Guilliman was told of the Red Thirst flaws during the Imperium Secundus era, and therefore told Cawl to help research a cure in the 10K period, I can't accept that the Primaris are totally incapable of succumbing to the thirst. However I don't think so considering that him and Sanguinus were never close and I can hardly envision Sanguinus trusting Guilliman with such a terrible secret.

 

The worst we could see, and has been mentioned before? The Primaris were created with the forbidden knowledge of Chaos, thereby contaminating the entire Adeptus Astartes structure as they fill in the gap. Or even more embarassing? Created from geneseed of traitor primarchs. Can you imagine waking up one day and instead of Granddaddy papa smurf being your primoginetor, it's Lorgar? After all, majority of the traitor primarchs didn't have any real genetic flaws (unless you count their personality quirks like eternal rage, being fabulous and being batman moody), so their geneseed is just as capable of creating new marines.

From my understanding of Dark Imperium, Cawl discovered the flaws and not RG. Cawl then began on working on removal of these based on RG Geneseed as his was the "purist". He left the idiosyncrasies (ie canine helix and red thirst) as that was the emperor's original design.

 

There is a theory that RG has removed all other primarch Genesee and simply used his own to ensure the purity of Marines. This would mean all the Primaris are just "magically cured" is really just a trick by RG. Cawl also wanted to use traitor geneseed saying it was pure but RG denied it saying it was impure despite Cawl saying it was. What is to say RG didn't do the same for the BA and SW?

 

Edit:

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Sons_of_the_Phoenix

 

Oh yes so like Dorn....

Edited November 21, 2017 by Caldersson