Taking on the Astra Millitarum

[Captain Idaho]

This army is the next big thing in competetive games seeing how their gun lines are superb and numerous.

 

How do we best them?

 

I've got theoretical but no practical this edition.

 

Decent terrain is a must against them I feel. For too long an open table has been considered "normal".

 

My initial theoretical are decent numbers (My go to answer) mixed with reasonable fire support and an attack force. I have Cataphractii Terminators and Vanguard who can spear head an attack, along with a Rhino full of Sternguard, which is ideal for most armies but I do worry against Astra Millitarum.

[greatcrusade08]

from my understanding thy don't even need character buffs now right? the tanks fire main guns twice and cadians can rapid fire also amirite?

If im right then this takes out the necessity for snipers or the need for mortal wounds (handy vs tanks I guess?)

Alpha striking could be a good idea, hit that one juicy target, is there a viable way to out drop IG/AM to get first turn?

drop pods with melta, lots of lascannons for range

fast moving units, bikers will mess up the infantry and be able to get up close with meltaguns relatively quickly.

most AM lists ive seen come with anti air, so not sure its wise to line up air units?

 

just some random thoughts really, bit of a jumble

[Captain Idaho]

Cadians, if they stand still, get to reroll ones. Outrageous buff compared to what we get!

[Kinstryfe]

Playing from their side of the table, I can offer up:

When you target something, commit to taking it out. If you can't realistically do that, try to target something you can. Slightly injuring a tank won't do enough to really hurt it, so aim to kill.

 

Try to take full squads. Every squad of 5 Marines I've ever had try to get near me that didn't teleport in (and some that have) have been blown off the board, and that's with just the index list.

 

Cover cover cover. If your meta doesn't use a lot, it needs to. Our games usually had 9ish large pieces on a 6x4 table, more than a lot of players were using, and even that felt like my opponent was exposed.

 

Target priority and threat priority. In many/most cases, you'll be highly outnumbered, and will stand next to no chance of tabling their army. Target selection, threat assessment, and playing to the victory conditions is how you beat them. Target the biggest threats you can likely kill and keep at it until they're gone, then move on to the next threat. If you're playing with set objectives, prioritize them. If they're variable, know what you're likely to need and have a plan up your sleeves. If guard waste half their shots, you got a slight advantage. If you waste half of yours, they're going to win.

 

All of these are things I've benefited from on the guard side of the table, so knowing how to minimize them can only help.

[our_baz]

I'll add further to what @Kinstryfe has added. When I've lost to marines its because my opponent has focused on the mission not my army. When I've won its due to the opposite (i.e. opponent tried to table me).

 

As a guard commander what I don't want my SM opponent to do is:

• Take out my squishy T3 buffing characters. With only W4 and  at a best a 5++ they can die very easily to snipers. If I cant issues orders or stop my INF squads running away its a real pain.
• Drop aura's / effects that making my shooting less effective. Had issues in a one game with a DA darkshroud creating a 6" -1 to hit bubble. Hitting on 5+ most of the time hurts.
• Use cover. Sounds obvious but had a SM player arrogantly walk across the board thinking my flashlights wouldn't hurt!
• Meat grinder assault units. If you can get access to assault units with between 3/4 attacks per model then get into CC there isn't a great deal IG can do.
• Bring multi shot S4/5/6 weapons.If they have AP-1 or more even better. Twin linker Assault cannons make a real mess of IG INF, I've also had issues against hurricane bolters, special issue boltguns and storm bolters especially in double tap range. 

I've pulled these from my experiences playing against SM, hope it helps.

[NICS]

I’ve been playing with Gman and lots of aggressors and repulsors and have no worries at all with guard. A unit of 5 standing still puts out in average 95 shots.

[Frater Cornelius]

With Commissars nerfed, the only reason to take Snipers would be to kill Commanders and Psykers. But that could be enough to justify them. Really depends of IG prefer mech or foot now. I really would not rely on MW though. They are too few and far between when it comes to Snipers.

 

To be honest though, I do not consider Conscipts and Infantry Squads much of a threat to Marines in general and Primaris in particular. Tanks, on the other hand. This is what there is to beat. We are talking the whole range from Manticores to Leman Russ Tanks. I have a feeling that tanks will generally gain prominence with Eldar and IG ones getting buffed and others using them as ablative wounds in form of transports. I believe the key to beating IG is to have a few high priority killers like Hellblasters and Lascannons in various platforms to take out artillery platforms and tanks ASAP and deal with the infantry in due time.

[Tamiel]

Out-shooting guard is not impossible, especially if you get turn one (you have a higher chance of this. Use re-roll stratagem if you have to.)

The recipe I use is as follows:
1) Captain (who will be upgraded to Chapter Master for full rerolls)

2) A good amount of lascannons (Lascannon predator and at least 4 more lascannons (either dev squad, or 4 tac squads)). This will give you 8 lascannon shots. In 2k points, you may even need more. (If you are using lascannon devastators, remember the Sgt's signum ability, and buy a cherub to use on the guy that the Sgt buffed).
3) Twin-linked AC razorbacks. Especially with the recent nerf to comissars, you can now chew through conscript spam.

 

Now that you have all this, you just make sure everything is inside your Captain's bubble. Warning: Keeping everything in a bubble makes it harder for you to contest objectives if you are playing Maelstrom (if Eternal War, this isn't an issue). If you can't fit everything into your Captain's bubble, prioritize the lascannons. Focus fire enemy Leman Russ tanks. 8 lascannons should be able to down one enemy leman russ per turn (assuming you have your rerolls from Captain).

You MUST get turn one. If you don't get it, don't think "I lost" but it is still very important to get it. This means you need to have less drops than your enemy. Should be easy to get the +1 to the roll off through this.
If you don't win the roll off, use a CP to roll again. If you still don't win, steal the initiative. If you don't get your 6+ to steal the initiative, use a CP to roll again.

If you still don't get turn one, then that is unfortunate but remember: The game isn't over.

So do whatever you can to get turn one. You should still deploy safely, but do whatever you humanly can to get turn one. 

There are many other nuances to playing vs guard, which I can't fit into one post, but most of what I've said here is the key to outshooting guard. If you want to go really try-hard mode, take Guilliman instead of a captain. I'm against taking Guilliman but if you are ok with it then he is a great boon.

If you want a good list, the guy who won the Heat 1 tournament recently had a tried-and-true Ultramarines list. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Tamiel

[Vel'Cona]

You can't oppose the might of the Emperor's Hammer.  Better to just surrender or run away :D

 

But in all seriousness, F. Cornelius has the right of it.  IG Infantry can unload some firepower but they'll disappear to concentrated bolter fire (especially from Intercessors).  Armour is really the scary component because you can't really avoid it due to extreme range/non-LOS targeting and there are a few ways for IG to sneak armour onto the board from unexpected angles (mostly Tallarn).  The best bet will be either to mass anti-armour firepower, or kit out some sneak attackers with close-range tank-busting firepower for this specific role.  Many folks have brought up that IG are very good at board denial, and this is true, but with the push to heavily mechanize our forces that denial will be taking a backseat so deep strikers/outflankers should return to prominence soon.

 

Keep in mind that Orders remain important both from Infantry and armour (specifically Leman Russ) perspective; I think assassination is a fine tactic either with Snipers for Infantry Characters or concentrating fire on Tank Commanders.

 

As always, Guard struggles in CC in general so if your army can get there, it can be a very fast game.  Just watch out for some of our Strategems (Defensive Gunners) and Doctrines (Mordians)!  Oh, and if you see Bullgryns, probably best to clear them out first if melee is your goal . . . :P

[Frater Cornelius]

I tried a few different scenarios. It is generally possible to eliminate most high priority threats with a Primaris Guilliman deathball without compromising effectiveness against other lists. Having said that, this is Guilliman. I am sure he can make the worst unit look broken.

 

You definitely need at least 6 LCs around and at least a unit of Hellblasters. Together with a few extra shots and the Hellfire Stratagem as well as a CM plus Lieutenant (or Guilliman) it is generally possible to reduce tanks to 2W, out of range of the Jury Rig heal.

 

Only works if you start though. Most of the time you will, but there is always the possibility of initiative getting siezed.

 

Edit: Things to look out for as SM, particularly Primaris: Manticores, Basilisks, Earthshaker Platforms/Carriages, LR Executioners and Battle Tanks, Heavy Weapon teams with Auto and Lascannons (which is fairly rare as most buy Mortars, which aren't great vs SM). Primaris in particular would want to keep Tauroxes and Autocannons in general in check. Then there is also Plasma infantry to look out for, but most are not an issue T1. Scions are in reserve and SWS are embarked and/or out of range to do meaningful damage.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

Although some good points made, I'd like to pick up on a single one that particularly tweaks my interest.

 

Do not reroll the seize the initiative roll. Ever. I see this done in many games and it is a false economy.

 

It's on a 6+. Do you really want to waste a CP 5 out of 6 games?

[Kinstryfe]

Depends on the list (delving a little outside of just taking on guard here).

 

With my guard, I usually reroll because I have like 75cp anyway, and I expect to go second. So why not give it a try?

 

With marines, I usually don't, because I'm only really deploying half my army, and I figure I can withstand most of what's thrown at me by deploying a little defensively just in case.

 

My sisters, first turn seems to mean a lot, so I'll do everything I can to get it.

 

Some armies (not just factions, specific list builds too) seem to really need to go first, while others don't seem that destroyed if they go second. If you're playing a list where you really, really, need to go first, a 1:6 chance is probably enough. I mean, it's basically a 1:6 chance of whether you'll likely win or not. I don't usually tend to play that type of list, but when I do, I'm definitely going to try it.

[Tamiel]

Although some good points made, I'd like to pick up on a single one that particularly tweaks my interest.

 

Do not reroll the seize the initiative roll. Ever. I see this done in many games and it is a false economy.

 

It's on a 6+. Do you really want to waste a CP 5 out of 6 games?

It is a 6+, which is a 16.66% chance, but remember that CP points are not just judged by their percentage chance of working, they are also judged by the reward they offer you.

 

If there was a 16.66% chance to straight up win the game, and you had to spend a CP to do this, it would be useful to take this choice in every game. Going first has such a huge advantage that it is comparable to "straight up winning".

 

In general, spending CP on things that require 5+ or 6+ are bad, but going first is such a huge advantage that it is pretty important. Especially in shooting match-ups.

 

(Not to mention, if you're playing Ultramarines with the UM warlord trait, you are spending 2/3rds of a CP)

Edited October 27, 2017 by Tamiel

[Prot]

Well I really typically deploy when I’m going second in a manner where a successful seize is rarely beneficial. I will say if it’s an army I have to come to grips with in CC I may stick my neck out but most often it isn’t a big advantage for me to seize.

 

I agree the conscripts and guardsmen aren’t a huge threat but I don’t think that’s their role anymore.

 

I’ve played against some hardcore IG players for 20 years and they love the mobility now. In past editions moving and shooting, moving and blocking infantry.

 

Before my big advantage against them was Maelstrom. Not anymore. They can get ObSec all over the place now.

 

The other not so obvious change is I’m seeing more indirect fire in list building. Indirect is so much better now. I remember being able to cross my fingers and hope for a big template deviation... not anymore.

 

I find the strong tanks usually create a cradle protecting the weaker (often indirect fire) tanks. Getting in that cradle and busting it up or at least disrupting it is critical.

 

Deep strike and assault Termies and that brand of threat could become a thing again. I know with my Primaris I have trouble threatening it. It’s a job for Termies and lascannon teams in pods.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, Lascannons have a good enough range so deep striking them is less relevant. I sort of disagree of Termies. IG players can easily bubble wrap and TDA ranged weapon will not do sufficient damage to a tank, or at least nothing a Dev team couldn't do.

 

As for seizing, depends on the army. UM have plenty as it is with their trait and Calgar/Guilliman getting more, and Primaris have nothing to spend them on anyway. It is not like the SM book has something worth our while to begin with. IG, those who will use it the most, have Kurov's Aquila and a Warlord Trait to gain more CP. I doubt that one CP for potentially winning the game is a bad investment.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

I find I need my CPs as I build my lists with our Stratagems in mind.

 

If we hold our dropping reserves until turn 2 or 3 then we have the opportunity to hammer the bubble wraps. 2-3 attacking units plus your army won't be taken down instantly by even the most obnoxious Astra Millitarum army.

 

Remember, even Tactical Marines wipe out Guardsmen in close combat - don't be afraid to charge them enmasse instead of standing there and trading fire. Shoot as you advance then present a threat from your Rhino squads, teleporting Terminators and other troops.

 

Paper rock scissors might be how many games pan out in Matched Play pick up games, but a balanced Space Marines list should have capacity to do a multitude of styles.

 

It's for this very reason I take Vanguard, Sternguard and Cataphractii Terminators.

[Prot]

Well, Lascannons have a good enough range so deep striking them is less relevant. I sort of disagree of Termies. IG players can easily bubble wrap and TDA ranged weapon will not do sufficient damage to a tank, or at least nothing a Dev team couldn't do.

 

 

 

If I played 'vanilla' marines, I would start experimenting with Lascannons and aura's deepstriking together in 'beta' strikes once opponents start dislodging for the inevitable objective marker grab.

 

The more I've pondered this in the past weeks, the more I find new codexes make the idea even more tempting. People (imho) still play dev squads like it's 7th edition. Unless there is a VERY favourable position to lock down your opponent with an in-cover Las team, I think deep striking (podding) them in is a very valid strategy now. 4-5 heavy weapons hitting on 4's is not so bad with aura's. And you can't really hide that well from them.

 

Think of even lower level Devs... masses of Heavy Bolters, with aura's, and that Warlord trait that on 6's increases AP +1. It also means your devs can never be Alpha'd and someone like Calgar can direct a very strong firebase that plops anywhere on the field.

 

As I see stuff like IG and Eldar coming out, this becomes more and more tempting for me to go from 'looks good in my head' to 'I gotta try this'.

[Tamiel]

Issue with deepstriking is that enemy conscripts (or cheap daemons/boys/whatever) can make it so that you can't deep strike past the midpoint of the board.

In most deployments, there is 24" between you and the enemy (if there is less, then my point is even stronger). If your opponent puts conscripts (or whatever cheap unit he has available) as a bubble wrap, you're basically deep striking into the middle of the map.

You have to ask yourself if the increased price of the drop pod is worth that, when you can easily get your troops even closer just by rhinoing them in.

Consider:
(Rhino):

You and your foe have 24" of space between them. He has conscripts at the edge of his deployment.
With a rhino, you get to move 12", then disembark 3", move 6". Total: You have moved 21". There are 3" between you and your opponent's conscript line.

(Drop Pod):
You and your foe have 24" of space between them. He has conscripts at the edge of his deployment.
With a drop pod, you can only get up to 9" away. 

With rhinos, you have the option of getting up to 3" away (if you want).

With pods, you are stuck at 9" away. 

Now consider this:
If your opponent has guys in the midfield, you are even more screwed as a drop pod. If he has scouts, scout sentinels, or something similar in the midfield, then the rhino a clear winner.

The only advantage drop pods seem to give you is if there is a ton of terrain in the middle of the map that your Rhinos can't just get through.

In short: I don't see the point of drop podding devastators when Rhinos are cheaper and more reliable.

Someone might think: But Rhinos get shot at if you don't have the first turn!
Okay, assuming that your rhino dies in turn one, you also have to remember:
If your foe has turn one, he can spread his conscript blob even further into the midfield. Now your drop pods are basically forbidden from landing anywhere even remotely close to his high value targets.

I will admit that the Rhino being shot up on turn one is a draw back, but the drop pod also has serious draw-backs if the enemy also gets to go first. I still think that the Rhino is a cheaper and much more reliable option than the pod if you want to get close for some reason.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Tamiel

[Galron]

This might ramble as I think here. I play IG more than I play marines and I field both Elysians or a heavy armored IG army. My Elysians are obviously very infantry heavy with some light vehicles, a couple vultures and Cyclops.

 

-Against an elysian player castle and hold your reserves. It will force your opponent to move out of his zone

-Target Cyclops. They are light vehicles and explode easier than normal vehicles which is great if they are still within their own lines. Plus you don't want them in your lines where he will blow them up.

-Don't leave holes in your deployment zone for him to deep strike command squads into.

-Save enough CP to use the intercept stratagem for when he deep strike plasma and melta command squads nearby.

-No one uses vet squads(well except me for fluff reasons) but they will use 4 special weapon command squads. I use 4 of them and field them in pair each with an officer to get them to reroll ones. If command squads drop nearby kill them ASAP. Sounds obvious I know, but its even more important vs Elysians. Once you kill the main special weapon squads, it usually leaves them with a major lack of punch weapons. They devastate on the first turn they drop but kill the simple 4 man squads and you leave them with barely more than lasguns and mortars. I have done great on the first turn or two vs a monster themed chaos list but then I ran out of guns able to hurt them and the ones that remained tore me a new one post turn 3.

 

Against normal guard with armor.

I field 4 chimeras with three squads and two command squads, three mortar squads, two officers, and then 4 Leman Russes with only a turret and hull weapon, a pair of medusa and a pair of colossusi(?). Unlike a lot of players, I don't sit back and shoot with my chimera and LRs. They are moving forward either to objectives or to hit you. Played a DG army last weekend and he expected me to gunline and deployed accordingly. Two Medusas and two plasma command squads in rapid fire range along with a lasgun from a mortar squad convinced Mortarion of that error. Then is was a long slow cleanup process.

His mistakes:

-He assumed I would sit back and shoot.

-He assumed I wouldn't go for a close quarter firefight

-He thought my heavier tanks were the threat.

-He did not prioritize my tanks and took whatever shot he could resulting in all taking damage but all able to shoot until the very end. Granted out of the four I only had a damaged Executioner left out of the four but they all did stuff fairly effectively until they died. Meanwhile I lost a single chimera to some weird poison shooting flamer thing one of his characters carried but not before it had already killed multiple DG dudes and dropped its cargo off. Literally the other chimeras and all self propelled artillery vehicles didn't have a scratch on them, worse for him were all squads barring a plasma squad were intact and swarming his remaining guys. By the end of that game he had a lone Defiler left in the back field with every long range no LOS gun aimed at it.

 

Lessons learned- Prioritize tanks. Command tanks first. Followed by Demolishers. then Battle cannons or Punishers depending on what you have on the field and which would do the most damage.

-Use lighter guns on chimeras, especially the ones carrying officers and command squads. You might prioritize them in particular higher than regular tanks.

Deep strike- Once again you want something that can do mass fire or really strong firepower. Guard tends to bunch up in their deployment area. A Deathstorm drop pod is perfect for guard although you might wait for them to send their mobile forces out so you can hit the crunchy back line stuff.

 

If you have deep strikers, kill the sentinels ASAP, he will use them to deny your deep strikes. I do. Great way to extend your non-DS area by 21" before the game starts.