Prot's Quick Batrep: Primarily Primaris 2K vs Astra (Pics)

[Prot]

So here's something I thought I'd turn into a series. I'm going to try to play primarily Primaris marines, and make a series out of it. But to be honest for the past couple of months this is how I've been playing my marines since the codex came out (Previous to that with the index I used quite a mix which was effective).

Doing a little teaser here.... this moment is a critical scene later in the battle:

+++ Ultra's fight for their lives. Surrounded by floods of infantry, and iron might of the Steel Legion.... with the guidance of Tigurius, do the Ultra's stand a chance? +++

This game is Maelstrom at 2K.

My UM army from memory:

- Tigurius

- Primaris Captain with Fist and Relic Halo

- Lt.

- 5 scouts hvy bolter

- 5 scouts

- 5 Intercessors w/Grenade launcher

- Repulsor

- Redemptor

- 3 Aggressors

- Ancient

- 10 Reivers

- 3 Inceptors

- 5 Helblasters

- 5 Helblasters (assault variant)

IG army from memory: Steel Legion

- Cmd Tanks: Punisher (not Pask!)

- Russ

- 4 Chimera's with troops (some characters, priests etc)

- 3 Sentinels Autocannons

- 1 Lascannon Sentinel

- Manticore

- Basilisk

- Hellhound

- 2 Sqds of Scions with melta/plasma and cmdr.

The Scenario:

Maelstrom - each player starts with one objective but only draws cards for each objective they control from turn 2 on.

Deployment - Quarters. The middle bubble 18" is no man's land.

- Using the FAQ I add one to my roll to go first. And deployment looked like this:

++ UM Deploy - Scouts forward on flanks - Aggressors embarked with characters. ++

The Astra deployment:

++ From the Steel Legion table quarter. ++

The Game:

- Astra fail to steal the initiative.

- Shortly after movement, I completely forget my Psychic phase. I pull a card for killing a unit.... this should be doable!

- The Reivers back the scouts on the left flank by grav chute-ing right to the side of the building for some cover, and surround the Inceptors to insulate them.

++ Reivers mean business. Deathmasks? Check. Grave Chutes? Check. Bullets with no AP? Check. ++

- This flank opens up but can't kill the single tank. It's horrible to admit, but one thing I counted on was the -1 AP from the Inceptors. News flash: Steel Legion ignore the AP on all AP-1 weapons, thus rendering about 90% of my army incapable of modifying vehicles saves! Darn you Belasarius... darn you to hell.

- The mid table opens up. I don't move the Redemptor because I don't want it hitting on 4's with the HOG. It really doesn't matter... it does some fair damage to a Punisher and the Line of Sight forces the rest of the army to go after other tanks... the scouts concentrate a Heavy Bolter strategem on the right flank to deal three mortal wounds to the Hellhound.

- Helblasters, Repulsor, Aggressors open up on tanks but the shots from the lascannons only cause one wound for 5 wounds on the command tank. Not good... No other shooting I have can do anything. I get desperate with overcharging Helblasters on a high Scaffold and use Scions of Guilliman on the assault blasters, causing just enough wounds to blow up the Hellhound. I had to do this for the objective card and First Blood... giving me 2 Points. But I don't feel good about this.. .the army largely flashed against the armour, with only my 2 solo lascannon shots having ANY meaning against Steel Legion armour saves.

++ 2 Squds of Scions with Melta and Plasma. Exactly what my Repulsor needs....++

- Astra show up in my zone with the Scions and I consider using an "Auspex Scan" but with only 5 Intercessors I didn't think it was worth the 2 CP's to hit his dudes in cover....

- Astra obviously see the Repulsor as my only real threat to the army. Lucky for me he can't complete his card as it's an objective on the UM side of the table. As he starts shooting Tigurius uses his special ability to make the Repulsor -1 to hit. This works... to a degree but the amount of firepower hitting the Repulsor from all angles is immense... with help from the Scions, the Repulsor blows sky high. That's it for my real vehicle damage. He puts additional indirect fire onto the closest Helblaster squad. I take 4 wounds killing 2... neither get back up from the Ancient.

- The Agressors are always shot up early, but they vaporize in T1, and only one shoots back (fails to do anything). The right flank scouts with the heavy bolter are also vaporized.

++ Here we are... bottom of T2. Astra start to push forward hard. ++

Mid Game:

- In turn 2 the UM realize they have to take down some heavy vehicles as this is already looking like a slaughterfest. With the Repulsor being sent back to Belasarius' scrap yard, it's up to the Redemptor. Unfortunately I have to move it. With some assistance it does a few wounds to a tank, but not enough to fully damage one. I think I get a Chimera down this turn. But it's mostly the Heavy Flamer that does damage to Steel Legion infantry looking for glory.

- Again the lack of AP-1 doing any modifying is very punishing. Most of my army is wounding on a 5 or 6. The tanks are tearing the Ultra's apart. Sadly the best hope is on the left flank where he can't quite get a bead on the infiltrators, but again with Assault Heavy Bolters, I do no modification to Steel Legion armour so for example I counted.... and this is embarrassing... but I counted 48 shots from Reivers, Inceptors, scouts, and the Redemptor to take TWO final wounds off of a Chimera.

++ Inceptors seek cover, but expose themselves to a lot of firepower. Meanwhile the severely wounded Chimera would take 48 shots to take out of the game. Reivers get ready to assault...++

- Reivers commit to a multi assault killing squads down to 1 or 2 guys. Some how I manage to score a point putting Ultra's up 3 - 0. but the Steel Legion hit back hard....

++ Astra push back and even with Tigrius' -1 to hit, the Redemptor goes down to 3 wounds quickly. At three wounds with movement the Redemptor is essentially useless.++

- Things looks grim in Astra T2. Yet the Astra can't complete their objective.

- Astra with a priest decide to assault the captain and remaining Helblasters. One Helblaster survives and the Captain fists these brazen fools in the face for their misguided sense of heroism, but the writing is on the wall... there are very few Primaris left.

- The Chimera's would advance, into the Assault Helblaster unit, while shooting would take care of most of the Ultra core units.

Late Game:

- In a true sense of desperation the Ultra's try to hit the command tank on the left flank:

++ Desperate assault: The Reivers make contact with the Punisher, assault, but cannot wound. It simply drives off. The Inceptor loses one of its mates to overwatch and DUAL assaults the Lascannon Sentinel and the Basilisk! However both would be fine and simply move away. This bought the Ultra's nothing but a second of breathing room preventing fire from these units. ++

- The inability to cause AP adjustments to the tanks is literally killing the Ultra's. Some tanks are damaged, but mostly functional.

- The Intercessors are still dealing with the Scions in the bottom corner. One squad was shot up, and then assaulted to death. This allows the other squad to break out into the open to shoot at the redemptor.

- The Redemptor flames some more useless flesh bags, but the retreating Helblaster assault squad is unable to really do much to the Chimera with the -1 to hit I was afraid of overcharge effects... it turns out I should have done it....

++ The Intercessors kill off the remaining Scions in the ruins, but it took too long to finish the squad off, and now they can only watch on as the Scions would melta the Redemptor to slag. ++

- Although Ultra's score again going up 4-0 the Steel Legion now have two 'Defend' Cards which are auto complete in my T4. So in T3 after the Redemptor is destroyed, he turns his attention to my Reivers who falied to take the final wounds off of the Punisher command tank and they are killed to a man. The failed assaulting Inceptor is likewise killed.

- The last Helblasters are killed. All that remains is Tigurius, the Captain, LT, Ancient and 4 Intercessors I decide to concede. With no board presence, and zero chance of killing his tanks (all are still on the table, only a few Chimera's died), the Ultra's are pasted pretty hard in this one.

Conclusions:

- I considered playing '7th edition' marines in this one. IE: Get a massive Maelstrom lead, hide for the game. But I never had enough board presence to have more than one objective card. Although I accomplished them all, and had first turn, it never gave me the lead I needed to hide it out.

- Steel Legion ignoring -1 Ap was so brutal I can't tell you how dehabilitating this is to a Primarily Primaris army. I would have needed Multi repulsors and 4 squads of Helblasters. The ineffectiveness of the Repulsor made a bad situation worse. Too much fire power on the other end meant I was losing either the Redemptor or the Repulsor in T1. I would lose one per turn rendering the army incapable of damage.

- Hind sight being 20/20 I should have pushed the Redemptor forward and preyed to the Emperor. I needed to assault the tanks. I actually saw for the first time a scenario where the Macroplasma Incinerator is actually better than the HOG... and this would have been it. However moving forward, overcharging is a super dangerous idea.

- I still have a love/hate of the Redemptor. I love the model, I think it stinks still. If I could rip off the Icarus I would. The damage chart is so punishing to this unit. I still believe a vanilla dread, or Contemptor or Ven dread are all superior. I have 2 Redemptors and have played them (together) numerous times. I've never felt they pulled their weight.

- Immediate knee jerk reaction is to add vanilla marines, but I'm trying not to. My missile Devs would have been huge. A Stormraven, and vanilla razor backs... all decent options.

- My test unit: the Reivers were horrible. I knew I wouldn't like the 0AP on the guns and a parking lot list had nothing to fear from this unit. the Steel Legion lack of reaction until the last minute is proof of this. The Reivers had no effect in the game.

- Agressors. Fun but always dead. This was a tough game for them. There was no valid target for 0AP weaponry. But then again the mass of the Primaris had no AP in this game!

- Hopefully I will have some good changes to equal this out. But by no means was the Astra list a power gaming list. I would consider that list very average. If anything it shows the weakness of Primaris and exploited it nicely. Back to the drawing board....

[Tamiel]

A very important thing to see would be a bird's eye view of the entire board before the game started. Things like the amount of terrain (and where the terrain is) along with how the objectives are placed are very important to consider. 

I don't know how good Reivers are at this, but I use assault marines (with just jump packs, chainswords and a melta-bomb on the sergeant) to deepstrike behind a wall somewhere close to an enemy tank (or heavy weapons team). The purpose of the assault marines is to deep strike in a SAFE place, then the next turn they move 12" (ignoring terrain) and charge an enemy vehicle. They are not meant to kill the vehicle (even with the melta-bomb). They are a cheap unit that can, through the magic of melee, "disable" an enemy unit for a whole turn. But in order to pull this off, you really need to deep strike behind cover so they don't die. It requires a bit of patience and discipline whereas most players would just deep strike at 9" and hope for the lucky charge.

Anyway, I don't know if Reivers can pull this off, but my experience with assault squads has always been positive so long as I keep them in full line of sight cover on the turn they deepstrike. They usually don't kill anything, but they "disable" an enemy shooting unit for a whole turn. If I can his an enemy unit that is isolated, it is even better (because then that unit can't just fall back and rely on the shooting of its allies). In order to create this perfect scenario where enemy shooty units are isolated, objective and terrain placement becomes really important.

But good batrep. Did you give your Captain the Chapter Master upgrade?

Edited October 23, 2017 by Tamiel

[Prot]

 

 

Anyway, I don't know if Reivers can pull this off, but my experience with assault squads has always been positive so long as I keep them in full line of sight cover on the turn they deepstrike. They usually don't kill anything, but they "disable" an enemy shooting unit for a whole turn. If I can his an enemy unit that is isolated, it is even better (because then that unit can't just fall back and rely on the shooting of its allies). In order to create this perfect scenario where enemy shooty units are isolated, objective and terrain placement becomes really important.

 

 

 

Actually in hindsight as I try to tweak the list, the Reivers are a good cost. I was just miss-matched with all that armour. I don't use Assault marines in this edition, and they are actually more costly for the added advantage of moving 12" instead of the Reivers' 6".

 

The way I played the Reivers is pretty much as you described your  Assault troops. The Reivers came down behind LOS blocking terrain. Very few direct shots could hit them, but effectively they were ignored. They had some light tasks... stopping vehicles from shooting, and my hope was with all those shots, and assaults that I could at least remove the last few wounds from the damaged tank... it never happened.

 

 

But good batrep. Did you give your Captain the Chapter Master upgrade?

 

Thanks. No I didn't... but I really should have. I didn't have near the shooting to compete in this game. I could have rolled (Ultramarines) to refund some of those command points. I was thinking conservatively with my command points, but it never really mattered (I think I ended the game with 3 CP's).

[Guiltysparc]

I think you just had a list that was ill equipped for armor, rather than deficiency in your play.  Reivers, Bolter Inceptors, and the HOG Redemptor aren't really up for that task.  As you said, plasma on the Redeptor would have been the way to go and plasma on the inceptors instead of reivers would have been good too (or a 3rd hellblaster squad instead of the interceptors?).  I have also found that the regular plasma incenerators outperforms the assault and heavy types, rapid fire at 15" makes up for the assault version and being able to move and shoot (i find) works better than more strength from the heavy version.

 

Were you playing points or power level?

 

Also, loved this line "The Redemptor flames some more useless flesh bags"

[Galron]

Interesting. I have just gotten a full army of Primaris minus the Repulsors and Redemptor and have been trying to figure out what to do with them. The inability to even have the gear to effectively fight a pretty bog standard IG army, of which there will be loads of the next few months of more veteran IG players who didn't fall for the conscript fad is kind of disconcerting.

 

I still haven't figured out yet how I am going to use them. I was thinking Raven Guard doctrine(my army is either going to be painted loyalist Alpha Legion) or wait and see what the Red Scorpions get, which isn't a bad start since my RS force is kind of eclectic at this point anyway unlike my Als who have a full 4k of old marines. Until RS come out I might simple forgo the special characters and simply use RG doctrine. A predator annihilator would have helped you greatly in this match up and probably would have done some real damage. I currently use one(originally as a place holder to bring relic tanks) and have found it to be an MVP vehicle in every game.

 

So how stuck are you on fielding strictly new stuff? I see you are using scouts which are great for filling troop slots for battalions. The afore mentioned Pred would have done far more for you than the Repulsor, although granted you need some way to get guys from point a to point b. I currently use a storm raven but I am still fielding old marines. It does lead me into my other big baddy, a leviathan dread with twin gravs carried on a Storm Raven. Those two alone should solve a good amount of your anti-armor issues that you plainly have. While they aren't primaris, they also aren't physical old marines either. Just because you are primaris focused doesn't mean you need to forgo the entire space marine armoury except the repulsor and redemptor.

 

Also, try plasma on your Inceptors. I am fielding one squad of each just to cover my bases. They also have the potential to do some real damage.

[Guiltysparc]

Oh i just saw 2k in the threat title...ya, at 2k, if you are facing IG armor i think a tri-las predator spearhead is really must along side your primaris battalion.  I'm building towards these two lists to handle lots of different scenarios.

 

Anti Armor:

 

Battalion Detachment

 

Ultramarines

 

HQ 

 

Primaris Chaplain 

 

Primaris Lieutenant w/ The Burning Blade

 

Troops 

 

3x Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifles with Aux Grenade Launchers

 

Elites 

 

Aggressor Squad: 4x Aggressors, Flamestorm Gauntlets 

 

Redemptor Dreadnought:  Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm Bolters 

 

Dedicated Transport

 

Repulsor: Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Twin lascannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

 

Spearhead Detachment +1CP 

 

Ultramarines

 

Primaris Captain: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, Power sword 

 

Hellblaster Squad: 5x Hellblasters, Plasma incinerators 

 

3x Predator: Twin lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons

 

 

More General:

 

 

Battalion Detachment

 

Ultramarines

 

HQ 

 

Primaris Librarian

 

Primaris Lieutenant w/ The Burning Blade

 

Troops 

 

Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifles with Aux Grenade Launcher

 

Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifles with Aux Grenade Launcher, Power sword on sargent

 

Scout Squad: Sniper Files

 

Elites 

 

Aggressor Squad: 3x Aggressors, Flamestorm Gauntlets 

 

Redemptor Dreadnought:  Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm Bolters 

 

Dedicated Transport

 

2x Repulsors: Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Twin lascannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

 

Spearhead Detachment +1CP 

 

Ultramarines

 

Primaris Captain: Master-crafted Auto bolt rifle 

 

Hellblaster Squad: 5x Hellblasters, Plasma incinerators 

 

Predator: Auto Cannon, Lascannon Sponsons

 

Whirlwind: Vengeance Launcher

 

[Lemondish]

Oh i just saw 2k in the threat title...ya, at 2k, if you are facing IG armor i think a tri-las predator spearhead is really must along side your primaris battalion. I'm building towards these two lists to handle lots of different scenarios.

 

Would Venerable dreads with LC/ML be a worthwhile replacement? I like the idea of them benefiting from chapter tactics, but does the predator's mobility and stratagem make that big of a difference?

[Guiltysparc]

 

Oh i just saw 2k in the threat title...ya, at 2k, if you are facing IG armor i think a tri-las predator spearhead is really must along side your primaris battalion. I'm building towards these two lists to handle lots of different scenarios.

Would Venerable dreads with LC/ML be a worthwhile replacement? I like the idea of them benefiting from chapter tactics, but does the predator's mobility and stratagem make that big of a difference?

 

 

I feel like Kill Shot is super good.  Its only 1 CP and you're adding +1 to all three predators' wound rolls and their damage (12 lascannon shots, hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, then wounding on 2s and doing D6+1 dmg each).  That list has 7 CPs in it so, conceivably, you could run it every turn.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Guiltysparc

[TrexPushups]

Thanks for this battle report it really helped me understand my list in this match up.

 

It definitely confirms to me that my decision to bring heavier fire power is the right call.

 

Can I ask if you were using the Hellfire stratagem with your scouts? Between the smite from Tigurius and it that is 2d3 mortal wounds to help get past some of that armor.

 

I'm getting the following list ready:

 

Ultramarines(Novamarines) Brigade

 

+ HQ +

-Primaris Captain w/Power Fist Plasma pistol, Power fist, The Santic Halo

-Primaris Librarian Psychic Fortress, Null Zone, Force sword

-Primaris Lieutenants Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

-3x 5 Intercessors Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifles

-Shotgun Scout Squad Sgt shotgun, Combat knife

-2x Boltgun Scout Squad Sgt Boltgun, Combat knife 1 Heavy bolter

 

+ Elites +

-Primaris Ancient Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

-2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

 

+ Fast Attack +

-2 x Attack Bike Heavy bolter

-3 Inceptors Assault bolters

 

+ Heavy Support +

-5 Devastators Sgt Boltgun, Chainsword

Missile launcher, Lascannon, Heavy bolter

-5 Hellblasters Plasma incinerators

-8 Hellblasters Plasma incinerators

 

I'm hopeful that I can use the scouts and attack bikes to keep things like the scions back for a while.

Edited October 24, 2017 by TrexPushups

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Oh i just saw 2k in the threat title...ya, at 2k, if you are facing IG armor i think a tri-las predator spearhead is really must along side your primaris battalion. I'm building towards these two lists to handle lots of different scenarios.

Would Venerable dreads with LC/ML be a worthwhile replacement? I like the idea of them benefiting from chapter tactics, but does the predator's mobility and stratagem make that big of a difference?

I feel like Kill Shot is super good. Its only 1 CP and you're adding +1 to all three predators' wound rolls and their damage (12 lascannon shots, hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, then wounding on 2s and doing D6+1 dmg each). That list has 7 CPs in it so, conceivably, you could run it every turn.

I don't think it's conceivable to think your opponent will let you run it more than once lol. Only requires one Pred to be taken out for that stratagem to be unavailable.

 

And I almost forgot about the stratagem that turns a Dread into a Captain for a phase, which makes me think it might be worth going heavy with the dreads for flexibility. I suppose it ultimately depends on the chapter tactic chosen.

[Captain Idaho]

Nice report.

 

It seems like a tough battle for Primaris. Without infantry based heavy weapons you're reliant on Hellblasters for anti tank business to be honest. How far are you willing to keep your army Pure-Primaris?

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

First off thanks for all the great ideas and compliments.

 

Secondly let me just try to answer a few things in one shot:

1. When Primaris first came out, I moved my list creation away from pure marines to a traditional list that featured some Primaris. I still think that is the strongest way to go.

 

2. With #1 in mind, my goal here is to keep this series of battle reports to ‘Primarily Primaris’. I noticed since my first hand full of batreps in the Ultramarines’ section of the forum that the Primaris queries are wide spread and people want to know more. This is an exercise for all of us to share and benefit from our desire to field Primaris which quite frankly, have a bit of a bad wrap for obvious reasons.

 

3. Yes I’m allowing myself Scouts. The footprint of a Primaris army is just painfully small while including enough of themto test. Also we know that 8 th has started out pretty spamy But the thrust of this series is and will remain mostly Primaris.

 

4. Thank you for citing my list as the bigger problem and not my tactics but I do feel I screwed up a bit, bu5 perhaps not enough to change the outcome.

 

5. Yes I used the scout hellfire Strategem on the Heavy Bolter it was great with 3 mortal wounds. I got too aggressive with that squad, trying to box my opponent.

 

6. My first instinct was to rip out a bunch of units and go back to ‘known good’ staples like missile Devs or Preds or Cents, but I prefer to resist.

 

So my big beef here is the Primaris provide a lot of the ‘same’. Meaning if you want mass low end firepower, Primaris can do that. Here it bit me in the behind. No AP, and ignoring my paltry flood of -1 AP killed me.

 

Things I am contemplating as a result:

1. 3 Predators this isn’t replacing Primaris with Marines, however it’s still not Primaris. And losing a pred is losing the Strategem.

 

2. Taking the existing Redemptor and giving him the Macroplasma gun. In fact I can add my second one, and advance both with an aura and punch through AV with S16 fists and perhaps my (non) Primaris Tech Marine. I’ve done this before but never in this configuration. Any thoughts?

 

3. Remove redundancy. Reivers are fun, so are Agressors, and Intercessors, and Inceptors, but even combined, they couldn’t carry a Melta to battle. They just over lap too much. Should I consider plasma Inceptors? How about more Helblasters in the Repulsor? This is one mistake I made not throwing them in the Repulsor over The Aggressors.

 

4. Is it time for me to break down and consider a flyer? A Stormhawk? A Stormtalon? A Fire Raptor? A Stormraven seems a bit wasteful in this army.

 

5. With the chance of refunding some CP’s, I think I must start buying the Chapter Master upgrade for my Primaris Captain, or simply give him up in favour of Calgar (truthfully I’m trying to keep the Primaris Captain in the list even though Calgar is great with deep strike threats).

 

I have a few other ideas, I thought I’d start with the big ones I’ve been thinking of combined with some of your feedback.

 

Thanks for reading, and contributing!

Edited October 24, 2017 by Prot

[TrexPushups]

I'd probably pull out the aggressors in favor of more standard plasma incinerator hellblasters with Str 8 overcharge combined with  ap -4 they are perfect for ripping open things like chimeras. heck just getting some more scouts would be helpful in keeping away scions etc.

if you can manage it give the other scout unit a heavy bolter. Now you have a second unit to keep firing the hellfire shells with after the first gets smashed.

[Captain Idaho]

See if you can avoid Calgar for now. Keep the theme and let's make it work as much as we can.

 

Do you really feel you need the Chapter Master upgrade? I never felt I did as rerolling 1s is half your misses anyway.

 

What your list is missing is multi wound weapons. Plasma is great (my own list has 6 plasma weapons in 3 units) but a solid long range anti tank unit could really help out.

 

3 Predators is solid if you have additional armoured threats. So what if someone targets them at the back with their ranged weaponry, you Redemptor will make it in unmolested.

 

If you're taking a Redemptor to advance and take advantage of its S16 D6 damage fist then the Predator distraction is ideal.

 

Take the Predator Autocannon though. It's amazing.

[Galron]

I think people have really fell for the crutch of 3 predators. Just one pred annihilator is flipping nasty and tends to devastate anything it looks at. Twice now I have taken down Magnus with a simple quad las Predator in almost a single volley. Ok grants it didn't do it by itself but 12 and 14 wounds each volley isn't something to cry about on my end. I don't have the numbers to use the stratagem and certainly don't have the points in my lists, I like my Levi and Sicarian Punisher too much. That's another monster but your list doesn't seem to have issues with infantry(I bring a whirlwind to balance out my relic numbers, another highly underrated tank IMO)

[Prot]

I'd probably pull out the aggressors in favor of more standard plasma incinerator hellblasters with Str 8 overcharge combined with ap -4 they are perfect for ripping open things like chimeras. heck just getting some more scouts would be helpful in keeping away scions etc.

if you can manage it give the other scout unit a heavy bolter. Now you have a second unit to keep firing the hellfire shells with after the first gets smashed.

I think that's a good move. I just don't know about going to 3 squads of Helblasters, and 3 squads of Scouts, but you won't get any arguments out of me on their effectiveness.

See if you can avoid Calgar for now. Keep the theme and let's make it work as much as we can.

Do you really feel you need the Chapter Master upgrade? I never felt I did as rerolling 1s is half your misses anyway.

What your list is missing is multi wound weapons. Plasma is great (my own list has 6 plasma weapons in 3 units) but a solid long range anti tank unit could really help out.

3 Predators is solid if you have additional armoured threats. So what if someone targets them at the back with their ranged weaponry, you Redemptor will make it in unmolested.

If you're taking a Redemptor to advance and take advantage of its S16 D6 damage fist then the Predator distraction is ideal.

Take the Predator Autocannon though. It's amazing.

I will try to leave Calgar out. Last night I worked on painting the second Macroplasma Incinerator for my second Redemptor. If I go that direction, (approx 202 pts each) I probably won't have points for multi preds... and the Repulsor on top of that is a ton of points.... I feel like the Repulsor is essential, against an opponent like this game where I need to protect the Helbasters, and then get them into maximum damage range.

I do think the Pred's would be good though.

About the Chapter Master Upgrade.. I don't know. It's mostly for the Macroplasma, moving Redemptors or Hellblasters over charging and fearing a -2 to hit would cause deaths on rolls of 1's or 2's. This does seem to come into play, and if I can't over charge the plasma, I'm in trouble. That being said... that is the number one reason for me considering the Chapter Master aura so perhaps that's not a good enough reason to potentially blow 3 CP's....

Plus I just finished this guy (more pics in my thread - I don't want to clutter this thread). So I want to keep him in the game long enough for the paint to dry. lol

[Emissary]

I've been playing a pure Blood Angels primaris force for awhile now and I'll share some conclusions I've come to realize.  As a side note, my friends let me use the generic space marine stratagems, relics and warlord traits with my Blood Angels, but I don't use a chapter trait and still use the Blood Angels spells.  Also, I don't play in the most cutthroat environment and don't overly care about tournaments.

 

My normal 100 power pure primaris list (we don't play points)

Captain with assault bolt rifle

Librarian

6 bolt/frag Aggressors

Redemptor Dread with macro-plasma

5 Intercessors with bolt rifles

5 Intercessors with assault bolt rifles

5 Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles

3 Inceptors with plasma

10 Hellblasters with plasma exterminators

5 Hellblasters with assault plasma exterminators

Repulsor with lascannons

 

Few thoughts:

 

1) I run a lot of plasma; a lot more than you had in your list.  I rely on the intercessors, aggressors and the frag/onslaughts on the repulsor and dread to deal with infantry while the plasma take care of armor and heavy infantry in cover.  In my last game I was able to take apart a banehammer superheavy in 2 turns with the army fairly well.  The regular overcharging exterminator hellblasters should do on average around 9 wounds a turn to a T8 vehicle when they have a captain providing rerolls.  On average they should do around 12 wounds to a T6-7 vehicle.  And this is just at the 16-30" range.  Double it if you can get within 15"!  When you add in the assault hellblasters, inceptors, dread and repulsor, there is a lot of anti-tank when I need it.

 

2) Speaking of plasma, I love my plasma Inceptors.  What's important is that I don't drop them behind my opponent's line all the time.  I'll do that if they want to go hunting a backfield heavy weapons nest or a character that is foolishly hiding behind a unit and I can make the closest for firing.  However, a lot of the time I'll drop them within 6" of the captain or dread to buff up my position and to add some extra firepower.  They don't need to get close, just within 18".  Adding in an average of 12 overcharged plasma cannon shots can really swing the fight and can make it from wounding a tank to crippling it or killing it or getting rid of those terminators that deep striked to a flanking or backfield position on me.  I don't like the assault bolters nearly as much myself.  They struggle to kill heavy weapons in cover, especially marines and don't handle tanks well.

 

3) The macro plasma on the dread follows a similar theme.  I use it to take out tanks or heavy armor.  S9 when overcharged wounds nearly everything on 3s and if I roll a 1 or 2 for the number of shots I can always use a cp to reroll.  The 12 shots from the heavy onslaught I don't need as much when I have so much anti-horde in other areas.  Also, I don't usually advance it up the field.  It needs to stay still and fire, especially when overcharging.  I only consider it to go into melee if they come to me.  The fist is great, but the army is a shooting army and wants to keep a middle distance if possible.

 

4) Overall, with all the plasma, you'll notice a big theme.  IE I want to overcharge the hell out of them!  Even against regular marines I'll want to overcharge the regular hellblasters as I'll wound on 2s rather than 3s.  Against any models with multiple wounds or if they're disgustingly resilient, the extra wounds from overcharging plasma really increases their damage.  Because of this, a captain is pretty much mandatory to reroll those 1s that will kill your plasma carriers.  However don't forget about the Wisdom of the Ancients stratagem!.  It allows that redemptor to reroll its ones to hit, plus gives it out to any plasma you have nearby. This allows you to have 2 plasma nests on the board rather than just the captain one.  So you can drop your inceptors near it and overcharge safely.  Now you do have to be more careful if you play against the -1 to hit over 12" armies or if you play the open war cards and get acid rain as your twist.  But sometimes you just have to bite the bullet.  

 

Also, don't ignore the power of the -4 for the hellblasters and the dread plasma (inceptor plasma is only -3).  It completely ignores marine armor and almost all vehicle armor.  This is really powerful for consistency.  They completely don't care if you're in cover or what normal armor you have.  The assault plasma squad just loves moving up and sweeping infantry from the tops of buildings or in trees.  

 

5) Now for placement, I usually start the 10 hellblasters in the repulsor at the start of the game with the captain near the tank.  This decreases my drops and gives the hellblasters protection if I don't get the first turn.  Also, if they go first and move up even slightly the disembark distance plus their movement can get them into rapid fire range when your opponent isn't expecting it.  The 5 assault hellblasters usually get an infantry target in cover and are placed accordingly.  They don't have to get close at all as they don't care if you're 1" away or 24" away so remember that!  They don't need to overcharge a lot on that duty as there is no difference for S6 or S7 against normal infantry and they have a -4 either way.  They will go near the dread for the stratagem if necessary if they go light tank hunting.

 

6) For the intercessors, I bring all 3.  The stalkers will usually be the backfield unit while the regular ones will be the ones on the ground trying to take midfield objectives.  I the assault ones should stay between them.  Remember, the normal rifles want to get to 15", while the assault bolt rifles are perfectly happy at being at 20-24".  I love the grenade launchers myself.  Either krak grenades to threaten tanks or multi-wound models or frag to take out some extra conscripts or termagaunts.

 

7) I think you may have too many characters.  Primaris just needs bodies on the field, so I try to limit the characters as much as possible.  Personally, I like just having the captain and librarian.  The captain for plasma rerolls and the librarian for smite, other spells (as blood angels giving the repulsor or hellblasters a 4+ invulnerable save is awesome) and some psychic defense.  I understand why people would like the ancient or lieutenant, but I just can't find room for them.  I'd just rather have more guys.  For both you can get another hellblaster squad or inceptors.  

 

8) Lastly, the Aggressors.  I love how they look and like how they play, but I don't expect a ton out of them.  I know people complain that they get shot off before used, which is why I run 6.  I noticed in early games 3 didn't do enough to finish the job a lot of the time.  This was driven home when they shot at and then charged a regular chaos dread, didn't kill it and all died in melee that turn.  The next time I brought 6 and they mauled it.   At the same time, I also have a lot of other threats that my opponent has to deal with which can leave them free.  After you've had to suffer through the hellblasters or repulsor, I've noticed they become more of a target early while the aggressors are ignored.  

 

9) Lastly, predators.  People love talking about predator annihlators with them.  Something else to consider is a contemptor mortis with lascannons.  For the same power or +4 points, the mortis gives you a 2+ BS and a 5+ invulnerable save at the expense of a wound and the loss of the stratagem (if you take 3). Personally, I like the mortis a lot better.  

 

Overall, I've had a lot of fun running the army.  Even with everything I wrote above, I have no illusions that they're a top tier tourney army or anything.  I think they're perfectly capable in a regular or casual setting though.  They have their weaknesses, but I love playing to overcome them rather than trying negate them in list building.  I do view them like the stormcast from 2 years ago.  Limited selection release, but they'll be getting more in the future, and probably the near future.  This army isn't the AM.  This is their flagship army and I expect the selection only to increase.

 

Edit

 

 

 

About the Chapter Master Upgrade.. I don't know. It's mostly for the Macroplasma, moving Redemptors or Hellblasters over charging and fearing a -2 to hit would cause deaths on rolls of 1's or 2's. This does seem to come into play, and if I can't over charge the plasma, I'm in trouble. That being said... that is the number one reason for me considering the Chapter Master aura so perhaps that's not a good enough reason to potentially blow 3 CP's....

 

Remember, rerolls happen before modifiers.  So if you overcharge plasma and have a -1 or -2 to hit, you'll only get to reroll the 1s you rolled.  The dice that normally hit but do not with the modifiers cannot be rerolled.  This is where plasma get dangerous if over 12" away from those -1 to hit armies if you have a captain.  The 2s to hit for your plasma will kill your marines and cannot be rerolled by the captain or dread stratagem.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Emissary

[Galron]

Nice write up. My only issues are the points vs power levels. You use one of the most expensive pointwise models Primaris have, plasma inceptors. I looked at them and thought they looked great until I did the points. They are bloody expensive pointwise to the nth degree.

 

We play bigger games with 2250 as a small point game for general play. Im cautious with people who claim they can only field 2k point armies as that's the normal tournament level here and gives me the impression they are trying out tournament lists, unless they are truly a new guy. I have run into this before with the results of I had a horrible experience playing the battle as I brought a fun pick up game list and they brought their practice list for a tournament which ended up winning 2nd in a bigger tourney.

 

Anyway, my current 2.5k list subject to change is a mix of all of both regular and primaris, mostly due to point costs and trying to get a battalion for command points. I play Red Scorps but since their rules aren't out I am using Iron Hands justifying the Fnip as apothecary squad leaders.

 

Captain in gravis(its the model I have otherwise I would save points and put him in normal primaris armor)

Librarian with force sword

 

Scouts with sniper rifles x5

Scouts with sniper rifles x5 (I don't think I put camo cloaks on them for fluff reasons)

Intercessors x10 standard rifles ride in the Repulsor

 

Reavers x5 blade, Deep strike

Reavers x5 blade, deep strike

 

Inceptors x6 standard

Hell Blasters x6

Hell Blasters x6

 

Repulsor twin lascannon

Leviathan twin grav bombards

Sicarian Punisher with heavy bolters all around

Predator Annihilator

Whirlwind

 

The latter two were adds just to be able the field the Relic vehicles above them but have more than done their fair share. I am amazed at how much these old workhorses do in a game. As to how to use them I am unsure at this point. I might drop an intercessor to put the libby in with them. The Captain will likely stick around the Hellblasters for obvious reasons. In any list I normally use the Levi I almost always have a Storm Raven but just didn't have points.

 

Anyone have experience with the Reavers? they seem like they want to be in close combat but are lacking any real punch. I find it weird they didn't give the option for the sgts to have regular close combat weapon choices. But then that's a problem I have in general for primaris.

[Blindhamster]

Reivers are a tough unit to use well I've found.

 

They bounce off of high toughness enemies due to the sheer unlikelyhood of wounding them.

 

They have a nice amount of melee attacks, but no AP. Which means they're best used vs low save low toughness targets - yet another anti-horde unit for primaris basically.

 

Their grenade is nice but very short range obviously, so very tough to make good use out of. They're better than an assault squad in melee, but only in terms of attacks, the assault squad sergeant having a power sword or something is a huge deal that reivers miss out on.

 

I think in an army that could provide them a strength and/or AP buff, they'd be decent.

[Emissary]

Nice write up. My only issues are the points vs power levels. You use one of the most expensive pointwise models Primaris have, plasma inceptors. I looked at them and thought they looked great until I did the points. They are bloody expensive pointwise to the nth degree.

 

True, 3 are 258 points while only 10 power, so about 3 power too cheap.  Meanwhile a captain is 6 power and 95 points and the librarian is 7 power and 105 point, hence 13 power and 200 points exactly, or 3 power (60 points) too expensive.  For my list those 3 units wash each other out (would be 23 power or 458 points, pretty much right on 1 power = 20 points).  However, I don't want to turn this into a points vs power debate.  Our group feels that power is good enough and would be more inclined to play points if we felt that points was more of an exact science.  To us, points are just as off as power (hence why things get radical adjustments in the new codexes or some things like angelus bolters that are obviously overpriced in terms of points) so why spend so much time on it if we get a good game with power.  Again, we're fairly casual.

 

 

As for Reavers, I Think they're next to useless right now.  Their weapons options are really lacking and I don't feel they do anything decently.  Like you said, if at least the sergeant had an option for a power weapon or melta bombs they'd become a lot better.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Emissary

[Prot]

The Reivers are for tying up units. They're nearly mandatory... or something has to take that role. Plasma Inceptors sound nice.. in fact I've tried to put them in lists probably 5 times by now... but Pointswise I just can't fit them. I'll see.

[Galron]

I see regular inceptors coming into their own now. With elder coming out and Alaitoc seeming to be what most people are going to be fielding as a generic doctrine, inceptors are going to be valuable for removing pesky out of the way ranger squads.

 

Reavers, I guess, can be used in the same way although a little less effective although far cheaper. Almost tempted to run one squad with the carbines for the extra shots at close range not that primaris need more bolt gun type weapons. But I am thinking in this function they might excel freeing up the other squads for the more valuable eldar troops. Probably will hold true for tau pathfinders and stealth teams when their book comes out and extra boltguns for downing drones is always useful.Weapon squads and other marine scout squads fall into killable targets as well. So better for the extra shots or the blade for close combat seeing as its a less than average chance they will be able to get a charge off the turn they pop up. Plus the extra range will help them after their primary target goes down. Just theorying here though.

[Prot]

Well in this batrep I ran 10. I would run them 2x 5 but keep the Carbines. They still have the bolt pistols (-1 AP) if need be, but compared to Inceptors they are 20 wounds,cheaper overall. The damage difference in my game is admittedly a horrid example (with Steel Legion ignoring -1 AP) however, it's not a big difference. In fact I used "Scions of Guilliman" more so on the Reivers because once you lose even one Inceptor, that's a huge hit on offensive output vs losing a Reiver (which opponents can't ignore, but don't like shooting at.)

 

For months I've used Inceptors in most of my lists. They are really hard to support, but too expensive to toss away. Reivers can jump in two different spots, (2 x 5) and occupy some shooty units, that are hiding... I'm talking about Basi's or Renegades indirect barrage, etc.

 

Current Adjustments to "Primarily Primaris"

 

- Primaris Capt w/Fist (106)

- Techmarine (57) He's cheap.... and he'll be useful in this list I imagine.

 

- 2 x 5 scouts (one squad has Heavy Bolter - I need to buy a proper box of these guys).

- 5 Intercessors 1 Grenade Launcher. (wish I had more points for a big squad for Scions or Auspex Scan.)

 

- x5 Hellblaster Squad (Assault Incinerators) (170)

- x5 Hellblaster Squad  (Plasma Incinerators) (165)

 

- Repulsor: Krakstorm, Storm Bolters, Las talon, Twin Las, O.G. (330)

 

 

Vanguard:

- L.T. w/Sword (74)

 

- Primaris Ancient (69)

- Redemptor x 2 w, Macroplasma Incinerators, Fragstorm, O.G. (402)

- Reiver x 5 (assault Carbines) (100)

- Reiver x 5 (assault Carbines) (100)

 

This leaves me at 1794.

 

Glaring omissions: no Tigurius, no Psyk support, or real denial.

 

Also on the fence with the Ancient at this point. I need a solid 200 pts here. Thoughts?

[TrexPushups]

If you were running more infantry then the ancient would be worth it.

 

But you have 15 minis that will realistically have a chance at being in range.

 

I say drop him for now.

 

Try 10 intercessors with a power sword & 1-2 grenade launchers and use the remaining points to grab an extra body in hellblasters or scout units.

 

Same number of drops but 10 more bodies for objectives and infantry removal.

 

Of course this brings me to the 2nd reason why I dropped the repulser from my to buy list. 330 points is the exact cost of 10 hellblasters. I realized I would rather have more of them than getting some of them closer.

[Prot]

Yea, I could get 10 Intercessors in with a Power weapon, and Grenade Launcher and still have 61 points (I think) which leaves me just short of popping the Ancient back in.