Prot's Quick Batrep: Primarily Primaris 2K vs Astra (Pics)

[Tamiel]

I use the Chapter Master upgrade in almost every game. I have never regretted it, and it is one of the strongest parts of my army.
If you can foresee the advantage of having a strong firebase in your deployment, which can see multiple objectives, then making a Chapter Master and putting him in your firebase is almost always worth the CP. But you need a GOOD firebase.
 
For 2 CP (as Ultramarines) you get a TON of rerolls with the Chapter Master stratagem. All you have to sacrifice, really, is your Captain's melee proficiency. Since he will be sitting back, he won't get to swing his melee weapons. BUT, if the enemy realizes how big of a threat your firebase is, he will probably try to assault it if his army can do that. In this case, your Captain gets to fight in melee too.

This works best if you have predators and dev squads (as well the map needs to have lower amounts of terrain, or at least the objectives need to be in open sight). If you want to go full Primaris, it seems like you want the opposite (lots of terrain, objectives hidden in terrain). It seems like Primaris is all about the mid-to-short range. I feel like if you want to play pure primaris, you have to give up any dreams of a long-range-shooty-army and just spend your nights thinking about a list that can get close to the enemy. 

No anti-vehicle option? If you can get close to the enemy, you can just tie them up in melee combat (plus a dreadnought melee weapon and powerfist on your captain). 

But this short range playstyle really sucks because if there isn't enough true LoS blocking terrain on the field, you're basically out of luck. At least as normal marines, I can play as both play styles (often in the same army). Bottom line is, I don't see Primaris competing with other shooty armies unless they can SAFELY get close. This requires a lot of LoS blocking terrain in the midfield.

Alternatively, you can get that new Superheavy and keep a Captain behind it. That Superheavy (the new giant tank) seems like the solution to long range issues with primaris. But honestly, I'm getting vibes from GW that one is not meant to play Primaris as a super-long-range army. Maybe that's just me.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Tamiel

[Blindhamster]

if you could free up 7 points, what about a primaris apothecary?

[Captain Idaho]

Not sure an Apothecary would be helpful in this circumstance.

 

Unfortunately for Primaris, I agree with Tamiel that Primaris are an up close army with no practical transport.

 

Rather than critique the competitiveness of Primaris I'll be pragmatic with the situation. What I consider essential for Space Marines is to get into kill-range in meaningful numbers.

 

For Tactical squads this is easier as they have transports and double specials (essentially) so they can suffer many casualties on the way in and still pack a punch, even on foot. I've won many games already off the back of a Tactical squad or 2 being down to 2-3 models yet still double plasma overcharge.

 

So we need to determine what Primaris Marines get that and are capable of to emphasise this to bring about victory.

 

Intercessors are the bread and butter of Primaris armies. Massed S4, AP-1 firepower seems to be their stick. However, they are accordingly slow and their primary killing potential was neutered quite severly by Steel Legion.

 

Which brought me to a thought... What if we embraced the Intercessor Auto bolt rifle? 2 units of 10 is 40 wounds and can still lay down fire on opponents on the way in. Opponents will HAVE to target them as they will close fairly close fairly quickly.

 

That should allow you enough points to take 2 units of 10 Intercessors with standard bolt rifle to follow in a 2nd wave.

 

I see Primaris as solid infantry horde believe it or not.

[Frater Cornelius]

Curious how one of the more unpopular doctrines turns out to be a real pain for Primaris. What do I think? There is no way around mixing in some classicMarines. I've even started to make a Primaris-sized Calgar from a Lord Contagion.

You see, Primaris lack anti-tank and no amount of additional Hellblasters will solve the issue. I am not big on classicMarine infantry for the most part, as I think that Primaris do most jobs just fine. But consider vehicular support like Razorbacks for Scouts and Preds. This is what keeps my list afloat in these dark times.

What units will work? Reivers seem to be an interesting consideration, because they can tie up big tanks. One might consider equipping Intercessors with Stalkers and have them hang back. If you can't being them forward, then just give them better guns. Inceptors seem to be pointless as they are too expensive and add very little over Aggressors. I like Aggressors when dealing with infantry armies, but they have little use for UM against tank lines.

I recommend Razorbacks or Preds for LCs. This should make things considerably easier.

Sadly, we need Guilliman to be able to out-gunline IG. Aggressive plays may be better, but are worse against many other armies.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Blindhamster]

hm, thats another interesting point, against armies that ignore the -1AP, Stalker Bolt Rifles may be a good choice for intercessors.

They're proven to be mathematically worse as an option usually, but with the stalker being -2AP, it'd suddenly mean armies cant just ignore the firepower.

[Frater Cornelius]

hm, thats another interesting point, against armies that ignore the -1AP, Stalker Bolt Rifles may be a good choice for intercessors.

 

They're proven to be mathematically worse as an option usually, but with the stalker being -2AP, it'd suddenly mean armies cant just ignore the firepower.

 

But that also makes them worse at fighting other armies. I think the Stalker can still be a good option against 3+ armies in general. Still, I wouldn't be shooting tanks with Bolters unless I have Guilliman, but when playing Primaris, you won't have a choice.

[Frater Cornelius]

By the way, how about Storm of Fire as a Warlord Trait when facing armies that ignore -1? All your -1 has the potential to become -2.

[Prot]

I use the Chapter Master upgrade in almost every game. I have never regretted it, and it is one of the strongest parts of my army.

 

 

It seems like Primaris is all about the mid-to-short range. I feel like if you want to play pure primaris, you have to give up any dreams of a long-range-shooty-army and just spend your nights thinking about a list that can get close to the enemy. 

 

 

 

- I'll probably put the Chapter Master upgrade into effect. I used to use it all the time with my Primaris, but eventually I found Calgar just a better value all around and more mobile. But since this 'experiment' has me not using Calgar, I'll have to go back to this, plus I may refund some of the points... you never know. And I get to use my fresh painted fist Primaris Captain which has been fun thus far.

 

- We do play with (I'm sure you can see from the pics) a fair amount of terrain. We always do as per GW's own recommendation and this is shown on their Warhammer TV broadcast of the Grand Tournament 2 weeks ago.

 

 

 

if you could free up 7 points, what about a primaris apothecary?

 

- Now that I am trying to get 10 more Primaris in, I am seriously considering this option. I don't have him completely painted, but having a slow moving mass of infantry advancing could benefit from this.

 

 

Which brought me to a thought... What if we embraced the Intercessor Auto bolt rifle? 2 units of 10 is 40 wounds and can still lay down fire on opponents on the way in. Opponents will HAVE to target them as they will close fairly close fairly quickly.

 

That should allow you enough points to take 2 units of 10 Intercessors with standard bolt rifle to follow in a 2nd wave.

 

I see Primaris as solid infantry horde believe it or not.

 

- I'm trying to fit them in while not neutering my ability to deal damage to vehicles. (As seen in this game) It's a challenge but maybe I'm there now with the tweaks I've done.

 

Curious how one of the more unpopular doctrines turns out to be a real pain for Primaris. What do I think? There is no way around mixing in some classicMarines. I've even started to make a Primaris-sized Calgar from a Lord Contagion.

 

 

 

 

- Are you asking me if the doctrine was a pain in the Calgar? Check out the battle report... it was brutal. It's one thing to try to finish tanks off (never mind T8) with Bolt Rifiles, but to finally wound but with no AP value is... completely demoralizing to a Primaris Army. (thanks for the rubber bullets Cawl!!!) ;)

 

 

I recommend Razorbacks or Preds for LCs. This should make things considerably easier.

 

Sadly, we need Guilliman to be able to out-gunline IG. Aggressive plays may be better, but are worse against many other armies.

 

- But we know this. It's been proven a hundred times over.... Guilliman + Razorspam = competitive marines. I (personal opinion moment) find it fantastically boring. And if you're playing anyone without a competitive list it can be too much. The challenge of this idea/theme is to not settle into all the creature comforts of the codex and challenge ourselves with the something different. ( I don't mean to imply that can only be done with Primaris, this is just my personal goal.)

 

 

 

By the way, how about Storm of Fire as a Warlord Trait when facing armies that ignore -1? All your -1 has the potential to become -2.

 

-  That would have been a very smart move in this game. I would have given up the refunds... (which by the way I don't think I recovered a single CP!) Great idea.... will definitely do against Steel Legion in the future. I do confess I had no idea about the -1 Steel Legion until my first shots were fired and it was instantly back breaking in game terms.

 

 

Current Adjustments to "Primarily Primaris"

 

- Primaris Capt w/Fist (106)

- Techmarine (57) He's cheap.... and he'll be useful in this list I imagine.

 

- 2 x 5 scouts (one squad has Heavy Bolter - I need to buy a proper box of these guys).

- 5 Intercessors 1 Grenade Launcher. (wish I had more points for a big squad for Scions or Auspex Scan.)

 

- x5 Hellblaster Squad (Assault Incinerators) (170)

- x5 Hellblaster Squad  (Plasma Incinerators) (165)

 

- Repulsor: Krakstorm, Storm Bolters, Las talon, Twin Las, O.G. (330)

 

 

Vanguard:

- L.T. w/Sword (74)

 

- Primaris Ancient (69)

- Redemptor x 2 w, Macroplasma Incinerators, Fragstorm, O.G. (402)

- Reiver x 5 (assault Carbines) (100)

- Reiver x 5 (assault Carbines) (100)

 

This leaves me at 1794.

 

Glaring omissions: no Tigurius, no Psyk support, or real denial.

 

Considering dropping a scout squad, adding 5 Intercessors, and adding the 3 Aggressors back in with a Primaris Apothecary.

 

Also on the fence with the Ancient at this point. I need a solid 200 pts here. Thoughts?

[Galron]

I would ditch the ancient and the LT and replace them with a general Libby. I don't know what points level you are shooting for but it might leave you enough points for some inceptors or a couple reaver squads for taking or clearing objectives. I predict a rise in the number of eldar rangers we are going to have to dig out that are -3 to hit and having dudes in our notoriously slow list able to jump them out of the blue is going to be vital. For me one of each is a chopping block unit to drop points, I have zero plans to go below one of each, Ill drop a sicarian followed by a whirlwind in my list first(crap on that note I need to go count slots and see if I have enough slots and HQs for them in my list or my LT test model might actually get some board time).

[Frater Cornelius]

I wasn't asking if it was a pain. I didn't put a question mark at th end :P I merely found it amusing after a friend and I discussed the Astra book and labeled Armageddon as one of the less viable one to play.

 

As for the list, you could use more bodies. I mean, you have 200 to go, so why not take 5 more Intercessors and bump the unit to 10? That leaves you with 103-104, depending on whether you buy the second Aux Grenade Launcher. The big question now is whether one Tech Marine is worth more than a Librarian. As soon as people see the TM, they will finish off vehicles. It will be rather niche value. You would have enough point to add Tiggy instead of the TM and have 30-31 points left for random bits and gubbins. Alternatively, you can add an Apothecary to camp with the Hellblasters, but that'll leave you with the same effect as with the Tech Marine. I wish there was a few more spare points for the Aggressors, to be fair. You could drop the Ancient for 4 dudes, but whether thats a good idea remains to be seen.

 

If you do not have a second HB, there is no reason not to run 10 Scouts in a unit and Combat Squad them. There may be a time where you wish you had one less drop to increase your chances of going first. I am also very very VERY curious and hopeful when it comes to the two Redemptors. I want to run two, but my negativity and common sense dictate that to be a bad idea. I hope I am wrong so I stick it in my own face and go "Take that, stupid brain!" :D

[Guiltysparc]

Whats your plan for the Reivers?  You could drop them and fit another repulsor in that list to cart around all your infantry dudes.  Could you fit in another set of intercessors in place of 1 scout unit?  You could roll a unit of hellblasters and intercessors in each repulsor for lots of maneuverability.  

[Prot]

I would ditch the ancient and the LT and replace them with a general Libby. I don't know what points level you are shooting for but it might leave you enough points for some inceptors or a couple reaver squads for taking or clearing objectives.

 

- This is certainly possible. I'm trying to think of an Ancient or an Apothecary as something that helps Primaris lists with inherent numbers issues. Perhaps it isn't worth it. I've played it both ways and the results have been from amazing to useless.... (Dice can be dice sometimes).

 

- Two 5 man Reiver squads are currently in the list. All they are there for is to get in the corners and beat down Renegades with Batteries, and/or tie up tanks. This batrep did have the Reivers AND Inceptors, but I just really have trouble getting mileage out of both units, and Reivers last a touch longer for me. If I yank both of these units out, it gives me big issues with deep, stuck in units that hammer you without any fear of repercussion.

 

 

The big question now is whether one Tech Marine is worth more than a Librarian. As soon as people see the TM, they will finish off vehicles. It will be rather niche value. You would have enough point to add Tiggy instead of the TM and have 30-31 points left for random bits and gubbins. Alternatively, you can add an Apothecary to camp with the Hellblasters, but that'll leave you with the same effect as with the Tech Marine. I wish there was a few more spare points for the Aggressors, to be fair. You could drop the Ancient for 4 dudes, but whether thats a good idea remains to be seen.

 

 

 

- This was something I asked previously. It is hard for me to pull Tigurius out, I've used dual Redemptors several times. It's really hit or miss. I was using them with 2 Techpriests and Calgar, but that was before the Repulsor came out. But this will be the first time running them both with Macroplasma Incinerators, so I'm probably using the Chapter Master Aura.

 

- Aggressors are something I keep trying to put back in the list... it's a nice volume of firepower for the points, I'm just finding the last thing I really need is more low end firepower. But yea, I'm still wishing I could pull Reivers for supplying some points for the Aggressors but there goes my deep threat.

 

 

 

Whats your plan for the Reivers?  You could drop them and fit another repulsor in that list to cart around all your infantry dudes.  Could you fit in another set of intercessors in place of 1 scout unit?  You could roll a unit of hellblasters and intercessors in each repulsor for lots of maneuverability.  

 

- Dual Repulsors sounds very risky. They're so many points! It took me forever to paint the single one I have. The only thing I could imagine is proxy a second one using a Land Raider.... I just don't know if it's worth it. If I had a second one I'd probably go HOG, Lastalon, OG, storm bolters (since my other one is dual Las).

 

What do you guys think? Too many eggs in one basket? Too few models? Or is it worth the second hard target on top of 2 Redemptors?

[Galron]

Its a good question. Before we were starting to see entire lists with no vehicles thus people were bringing less and less AT weapons and I would have said bring two, most lists wont be able to quickly handle it. Now though, with IG out and the massive improvement on vehicles in their book, the large numbers of cheaper and improved Eldar vehicles we will be seeing shortly, you are going to see more squad based AT units and weapons. I don't think even two Repulsors will last very long without a lot of terrain and even then since eldar got their shoot and scoot ability back. I would say no and that more troops are mo' betta'. I know playing chaos it drove me nuts when opponents wouldn't bring any tanks for my AT to shoot at.