New codex coming this year...

[Blindhamster]

If they had them gain talons, longer fangs and bloated muscles, I would be fine with it (basically, as you say - the above minus the odd bat horn thing) also, but yeah currently that isn't what they're depicted as.

That being said, its part of a warp vision and it isn't clear exactly how much of that appearance is down to being in the eye of terror. He's also depicted as being fully under its sways in a different scene where he just looks abnormally muscular.

[Frater Cornelius]

Not sure how much I like it. This moves towards the SW-levels of over the top symbolism instead of subtle hints. The whole BA flaw seemed more like something spiritual, an internal battle between animalistic urges and the human inside, going in line with a lot of catholic symbolism that BA have. Going for Vampire-Wulfen seems like they are missing the point.

 

But hey, I am not a long-time BA fan, so maybe that's what people want. I'm not here to judge.

 

Inb4 Blood Bat Cavalry :D

Edited November 19, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Pendent]

Just to reiterate this is only conjecture on my part. The book made a lot of effort to hype up using these guys and it really felt to me like one of those situations where GW is actively trying to use a novel to push models but I could be completely wrong.

 

Mixed feeling on my part about what we're seeing but a new more monstrous unit could certainly help with some of our issues in assault.

[Jorre]

Herasy

[Blindhamster]

Not sure how much I like it. This moves towards the SW-levels of over the top symbolism instead of subtle hints. The whole BA flaw seemed more like something spiritual, an internal battle between animalistic urges and the human inside, going in line with a lot of catholic symbolism that BA have. Going for Vampire-Wulfen seems like they are missing the point.

 

But hey, I am not a long-time BA fan, so maybe that's what people want. I'm not here to judge.

 

Inb4 Blood Bat Cavalry

 

What i was trying to say... is we've had that monstrous element to us for as long as SW, the only difference is we've never had a unit for them, where the wolves got one during the black crusade campaign a decade or so ago. We aren't "moving towards SW-levels" we have always been there. Just a lot of people like to focus almost entirely on our noble side. Which is equally missing the point.

 

I tried to highlight this on a FB post not long ago. I'll just quote it here:

 

 

On the one hand we have Dark and terrifying vampires, on the other we have actual Angels. The Blood Angels as a whole are both and yet neither.

 

If you focus too much on one, you devalue the chapter as a whole, if you don't focus on either you end up with red marines.

 

We've always had fangs (albeit less pronounced than the wolves). We've always had a thirst for blood and rituals based around the drinking of it. We've always had nods and hints to vampirism, we've always had a noble heroic aspect, in many ways moreso than any other chapter. We are a contradiction and that is what makes us interesting!

 

Our themes are:

Vampires

Angels

Brutality

Elegance

Hope

Damnation.

 

We as blood angels have a balance of them all. Whilst, Successor chapters explore what happens when you push one of those extremes which is how it should be.

 

As noted though, I do agree that I cant see the BA opting to use them in open war, defending Baal seems like it'd be an exception, as whilst the DC are very difficult to control, the point of those that succumb to the red thirst is they're impossible to control.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Pathstrider]

I really didn't get the vibe they see anything other than a last resort in the book. I doubt they'll be in the codex

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Well I hope if we get new units it's not that personally... I think the Wulfen are some of the worst fluff / model units in the game. It would kick us further in cheap cartoon category imo. I don't think that's gonna happen.

[Panzer]

I don't doubt that we could see them as unit eventually and I wouldn't mind some monstrous vampiric marine, but I'd bet money that there won't be any new unit in the upcoming Codex.

Also with changing times decisions can change as well. If for some reason they see the need to actively deploy those fallen Blood Angels then they will do so.

Also also keep in mind that Deathcompany isn't something that gets actively decided to deploy either but they are still available as unit in the codex.;)

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

From a fluff standpoint, I feel like the Death Company already capitalize on the Black Rage trope well enough.

 

Anyone that tries to say we are "basically codex red marines" will always get a response from me pointing to our first (2nd edition) codex where that was simply not (ever) the case; while we mostly follow the chapter organization as laid out by the codex the similarities pretty much end there; especially in the way we fight - and that has always capitalized on the Red Thirst trope well enough.

 

But when every single story about the Blood Angels is a balance between actual fighting and losing the entire chapter to Thirst / Rage, it just gets tired and played out. Perhaps it's mostly my dislike for Swallow, but c'mon - can we ever just have one proud fight where it's not entirely about the Blood Angels cliched flaw? I realize 'the flaw' is such an easy thing for authors to latch onto but if it was really that bad the Blood Angels would have been exterminatus a long ago.

 

Now if it turns into long clawed and fanged monsters, I gotta say it feels like a silly Twilight movie to me. I don't think this will happen, I really don't, I really hope it doesn't.

[Panzer]

Eh, not mentioning the flaw at all in stories would be just as wrong as making a story about just the flaw. The struggle with the thirst is a core theme for Blood Angels and it influences everything they do all the time. You can't just leave it out completely for a story unless you do a Blood Angel story without any fighting and away from the rest of the chapter so rituals etc. don't get mentioned either. Kinda unlikely for a 40k story I'd say. ^^

It's not there because it's easy for the author, it's there because it's a big part of what a Blood Angel defines.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

I am also guessing that these fallen brothers will be left locked away in the tower again most likely.

I think it perhaps speaks to why the BA do not embrace the thrist more fully very nicely also.

"Here is why we don't all try to be insane powerful naughty vampire gods..." so stay on the correct spiritual path as said above.

 

I would be alright with a Strigoi like infantry unit if GW goes that way also tho probably. Wonder if RG knows about them...

I would be happier with less roided out Daemon of Khorne from the comic and more the Mephiston Vampire gone feral tho if they do this myself.

More of Viktor from Underworld gone insane and less Hulk Smash I mean.

 

I have always been a fan of the vampire side of the Blood Angels. My inner high school kid still says Vampire Angel Space Marines... KOOL.

Angel Vampires refusing their base nature are what we already are in my opinion.

Not eating everybody because we are the defenders of humanity not it's predator. But ya know snacks happen unavoidably sometimes...

 

Fallen Vampire Angels unleashed in dark times as last line protection for humanity would be just fine by me tho if the models are good I suppose.

However - 

I am not for vampire bat riding air cavalry or a grav coffin being pulled by them. Or zombies, undead dragons, black coachs etc... Heresy *BLAM indeed.

Everybody has a line someplace I suppose. That's outside my cool with that zone for sure personally.

Too each his own. I just wouldn't put that in my army like... ever... myself.

 

Brother Warden Von Carstein would make the cut tho easily =)

 

I am more concerned with Primaris and the Thirst/Rage fluff really tho. Waiting on my paperback and the Christmas holidays to firm up my opinion there I suppose.

 

Will probably have my codex by then (I hope) so a kinda moot point.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Panzer]

I am also guessing that these fallen brothers will be left locked away in the tower again most likely.

I think it perhaps speaks to why the BA do not embrace the thrist more fully very nicely also.

"Here is why we don't all try to be insane powerful naughty vampire gods..." so stay on the correct spiritual path as said above.

 

I would be alright with a Strigoi like infantry unit if GW goes that way also tho probably. Wonder if RG knows about them...

I would be happier with less roided out Daemon of Khorne from the comic and more the Mephiston Vampire gone feral tho if they do this myself.

More of Viktor from Underworld gone insane and less Hulk Smash I mean.

 

I have always been a fan of the vampire side of the Blood Angels. My inner high school kid still says Vampire Angel Space Marines... KOOL.

Angel Vampires refusing their base nature are what we already are in my opinion.

Not eating everybody because we are the defenders of humanity not it's predator. But ya know snacks happen unavoidably sometimes...

 

Fallen Vampire Angels would be just fine by me tho if the models are good I suppose.

However - 

I am not for vampire bat riding air cavalry or a grav coffin being pulled by them. Or zombies, undead dragons, black coachs etc... Heresy *BLAM indeed.

Everybody has a line someplace I suppose. That's outside my cool with that zone for sure personally.

Too each his own. I just wouldn't put that in my army like... ever... myself.

 

Brother Warden Von Carstein would make the cut tho easily =)

 

I am more concerned with Primaris and the Thirst/Rage fluff really tho. Waiting on my paperback and the Christmas holidays to firm up my opinion there I suppose.

 

Will probably have my codex by then (I hope) so a kinda moot point.

100% agreed. I'm out of likes for today tho unfortunately. :P

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

The only reason we have the Death Company - is because of the flaw. The reason we prefer close quarters fighting (furious charge etc) is because of our lust for battle and blood (Red thirst). That already sets us apart and makes us special - it doesn't need to be more than that, it doesn't need to be the ONLY thing we are.

 

If every time the Blood Angels go to stand against the Emperor's enemies, they are on the brink of total Thirst/Rage annihilation that is just dumb, and already such a way overused trope. Further it just doesn't make any sense at all - the Blood Angels would be entirely useless to the Imperium if such were the case.

[Panzer]

The only reason we have the Death Company - is because of the flaw. The reason we prefer close quarters fighting (furious charge etc) is because of our lust for battle and blood (Red thirst). That already sets us apart and makes us special - it doesn't need to be more than that, it doesn't need to be the ONLY thing we are.

 

If every time the Blood Angels go to stand against the Emperor's enemies, they are on the brink of total Thirst/Rage annihilation that is just dumb, and already such a way overused trope. Further it just doesn't make any sense at all - the Blood Angels would be entirely useless to the Imperium if such were the case.

I think we're not talking about the same thing. With the flaw I don't just talk about the Black Rage I also talk about the Red Thirst. Actually mainly about the Red Thirst.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

To me it has always been Death Company lost it to the Black Rage (ie Sanguinius' shattering death rattle). So they are sent to a gloroius finale to rejoin the Primarch because they are pretty much not coming back. Or High Chaplain Astorath (also a very vampire character in my opinion) whacks them etc.

 

The Red Thirst has always been something else apart from that in my mind. Something all BA struggle with. Always. Tho I suppose they are connected by one weakness feeding another they are separate things I think.

 

Channeling that Red Thirst makes us better faster more as BA but it does lead to issues on the battlefield too. Sometimes overdone as you point out correctly I feel.

 

But If the vampire side of things gets way too far gone / out of control... (pretty rare it seems to me) then lock the pitiable (tho likely powerful) creatures in the tower.

 

Anyhow I see these as seperate worst case scenario manifestations of the two different curses BA have.

We are just that badass because of the Blood of Sanguinius (and the thirst) that we survive the burden of the Black Rage.

 

He knew his sons would bear the burden of the Black Rage as well as the previously existing Red Thrirst and still be a force against chaos.

Pretty cool stuff in my opinion.

 

Will be very interesting to see how it is handled in the codex.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Indefragable]

I thought DC should have similar capabilities as Wulfen...

 

...but Blood-Wulfen are just plain uncreative <face palm>

Edited November 20, 2017 by Indefragable

[tkni]

I find the easiest way to think of the curse is Red Thirst = genetic flaw, Black Rage = psychic affliction.

 

I'm intrigued to see how the new codex treats this, as it's not really compatible with the new lore - I'm fine with primaris geneseed fixing flaws, if by flaws we mean genetic degradation over 10,000 years that raises the incidence of one or both aspects of the curse arising, but thought the point of Cawl's 'idiosyncrasies' comment was to preserve the more fundamental aspects of BA like the Red Thirst (similarly for SW).

 

Minor DoB spoilers:

 

To put a hard stop on either would seem to run contrary to what we know.

 

“There is little, if any, sign of the flaw among the Primaris Space Marines. Corbulo tells me that where he failed, Belisarius Cawl has succeeded, eliminating the instability at source. Not one of them in the long, hard years of the Indomitus Crusade has fallen to the Black Rage. When queried on the thirst, the majority are perplexed. They simply do not know of it. Corbulo is amazed.”

 

So in 70-100 years, not a single Primaris marine has succumbed to the rage, and a negligible number are aware of the thirst. Red ultramarines indeed.

[Quixus]

If that is the becomes official: Boooo!

But I guess primaris DC would be too awesome... or at least as good as regular Wulfen.

And another boo, if the Canis Helix isn't resistant to Cawl's meddling either.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Quixus

[Blindhamster]

"The majority"

 

May suggest the thirst is incredibly rare... like it was during the great crusade, which makes sense.

[Quixus]

"The majority"

 

May suggest the thirst is incredibly rare... like it was during the great crusade, which makes sense.

The minority who are not perplexed, might have heard of the Red Thirst, or they might be experiencing it. The quoted line says nothing which it is. So red Smurfs are not disproved by it, or is their existence proven. So there is still a little hope.

[Panzer]

I guess we'll know soon enough with our Codex. If the Primaris units get any form of Red Thirst related army wide rule, it won't be gone from the 'fixed' gene seed for good. ^^

It's probably just that Cawl put it back into the state it used to be 10k years ago. Basically a reset. Give it time and/or other specific trigger and the Red Thirst will be back again.

[Frater Cornelius]

I guess we'll know soon enough with our Codex. If the Primaris units get any form of Red Thirst related army wide rule, it won't be gone from the 'fixed' gene seed for good. ^^

It's probably just that Cawl put it back into the state it used to be 10k years ago. Basically a reset. Give it time and/or other specific trigger and the Red Thirst will be back again.

 

Imagine what kick to the teeth it would be if classic Marine have Red Thirst as a rule and Primaris do not Oo

[Orpheus Black Blood]

It can't be, both have to get the rule. I wouldn't think of primaris without the red thirst as blood angels.

[Jorre]

To me it seems pretty obvious!

 

Gw have advanced the story what? Approx 100 years as best I can tell. They are moving everyone to primaris gradually. I am sure we will get primaris DC at some stage but at the moment the flaw hasnt presented itself. Why? Because gw havnt made the models yet!

 

When they have a less crazy release schedual I am sure they will advance the story a little more and guess what.... Primaris start showing signs of the flaw.... it just took a little longer.

 

It makes sense, they just cant do it all at once

Once everyone has a new codex they will concentrate on new campaigns that move the law forward some more and give them an opportunity to release some new stuff!

[Panzer]

To me it seems pretty obvious!

 

Gw have advanced the story what? Approx 100 years as best I can tell. They are moving everyone to primaris gradually. I am sure we will get primaris DC at some stage but at the moment the flaw hasnt presented itself. Why? Because gw havnt made the models yet!

 

When they have a less crazy release schedual I am sure they will advance the story a little more and guess what.... Primaris start showing signs of the flaw.... it just took a little longer.

 

It makes sense, they just cant do it all at once

Once everyone has a new codex they will concentrate on new campaigns that move the law forward some more and give them an opportunity to release some new stuff!

Yeah pretty much this. It's how I would handle it if I were GW.