Codex Chaos Daemons first in 2018

[Commissar K.]

What comes into my mind right now:

If I understand correct we keep the Index psy powers, so we have:

- new Stratagem to increase damge to 2

- Locus doing 1 additional damage for every 6+

- virulent blessing for +1 to wound and double damage on 7+

 

So every wound you do is at least D2 (Stratagem), every 5 you roll is D3 (Locus and VB) and every 6 is D5 (D2 Stratagem; double because 6 counts as 7+ for VB; plus 1 for Locus) ?

If this is right, Plaguebearers will rip apart MCs and AVs even without any high AP attacks !

Yes if you want to spend a bucketload of Stratagems you can do some crazy things with Daemons and I think this fits their narrative design very well also. A rift in the Warp is really something that can wane or come out of nowhere and basically act as an explosion of power. To me it seems the designers wanted to represent this with Stratagems, which makes a lot of sence here.

 

As before though dropping in a GUO at the right place, soak a hit and dish back will act as a true really heavy hitter. To me Khorne and Slaanesh are just more ideal for masses and Tzeentch and Nurgle boosts characters a lot. Cool design by my standards too.

[Panzer]

 

What comes into my mind right now:

If I understand correct we keep the Index psy powers, so we have:

- new Stratagem to increase damge to 2

- Locus doing 1 additional damage for every 6+

- virulent blessing for +1 to wound and double damage on 7+

 

So every wound you do is at least D2 (Stratagem), every 5 you roll is D3 (Locus and VB) and every 6 is D5 (D2 Stratagem; double because 6 counts as 7+ for VB; plus 1 for Locus) ?

If this is right, Plaguebearers will rip apart MCs and AVs even without any high AP attacks !

Yes if you want to spend a bucketload of Stratagems you can do some crazy things with Daemons and I think this fits their narrative design very well also. A rift in the Warp is really something that can wane or come out of nowhere and basically act as an explosion of power. To me it seems the designers wanted to represent this with Stratagems, which makes a lot of sence here.

 

A nice theory but doesn't hold if you look at other Codexes and see that they can combine them and basically spend their entire CP pool for similarly crazy stuff. ^^

[DeStinyFiSh]

To me Khorne and Slaanesh are just more ideal for masses and Tzeentch and Nurgle boosts characters a lot. Cool design by my standards too.

 

Edit: Please ignore, got you wrong here

 

Not sure about that... Pink Horrors seem to get an unholy amount of Dakka. Together with Flamers Tzeentch looks realy solid against hordes. Khorne on the other hand has not much for me to handle hordes. They are more suited to kill heavy elite units I guess ?

Edited January 2, 2018 by DeStinyFiSh

[Commissar K.]

 

A nice theory but doesn't hold if you look at other Codexes and see that they can combine them and basically spend their entire CP pool for similarly crazy stuff. ^^

Don't believe any other faction can deep strike Daemonic Engines but if you don't want to use the Stratagem that's frankly your choice and I couldn't care less ^^ 

[Panzer]

 

 

A nice theory but doesn't hold if you look at other Codexes and see that they can combine them and basically spend their entire CP pool for similarly crazy stuff. ^^

Don't believe any other faction can deep strike Daemonic Engines but if you don't want to use the Stratagem that's frankly your choice and I couldn't care less ^^ 

 

I believe you're confusing the topics here, I wasn't talking about the viability of the deep strike stratagem here at all. ;)

[Commissar K.]

 

 

 

A nice theory but doesn't hold if you look at other Codexes and see that they can combine them and basically spend their entire CP pool for similarly crazy stuff. ^^

Don't believe any other faction can deep strike Daemonic Engines but if you don't want to use the Stratagem that's frankly your choice and I couldn't care less ^^ 

 

I believe you're confusing the topics here, I wasn't talking about the viability of the deep strike stratagem here at all.

 

As above, I wasn't talking about 'crazy stuff' of other codeci either ;) So we still have to wait for more actual 100% confirmed spoilers anyway to know which way the whole design is going. A lot of 'spoilers' are vague at best. Hope to see more information on that soon.

 

What I can say though is that being able to deepstrike with a massive horde is fine with me and not something as easily found in other Codeci. One of the things I really like about Heralds on Mounts now is that they have a large Locus bubble with low cost and the moment to be able to support a unit like that from a lot of places. 

 

As a Khorne player though I'm totally cool with all kinds of deep striking. It's 9" away but thanks to the Khorne Locus re-rollable and thanks to the Instument of Chaos one is added. While at the same time I fully understand why a Slaanesh player would be much less concerned with deep striking. Being able to advance and charge with one added leads to a lot of places quickly too. Basically puts their movement to 8" or even 9" if charge targets are available.

[Shockmaster]

I am pleased Daemons are getting the deep strike option back even if it is at a cost, as I initially hoped that is what the new tree would offer but this is much better. 

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

A nice theory but doesn't hold if you look at other Codexes and see that they can combine them and basically spend their entire CP pool for similarly crazy stuff. ^^

Don't believe any other faction can deep strike Daemonic Engines but if you don't want to use the Stratagem that's frankly your choice and I couldn't care less ^^ 

 

I believe you're confusing the topics here, I wasn't talking about the viability of the deep strike stratagem here at all.

 

As above, I wasn't talking about 'crazy stuff' of other codeci either So we still have to wait for more actual 100% confirmed spoilers anyway to know which way the whole design is going. A lot of 'spoilers' are vague at best. Hope to see more information on that soon.

 

What I can say though is that being able to deepstrike with a massive horde is fine with me and not something as easily found in other Codeci. One of the things I really like about Heralds on Mounts now is that they have a large Locus bubble with low cost and the moment to be able to support a unit like that from a lot of places. 

 

As a Khorne player though I'm totally cool with all kinds of deep striking. It's 9" away but thanks to the Khorne Locus re-rollable and thanks to the Instument of Chaos one is added. While at the same time I fully understand why a Slaanesh player would be much less concerned with deep striking. Being able to advance and charge with one added leads to a lot of places quickly too. Basically puts their movement to 8" or even 9" if charge targets are available.

 

Yeah but you were saying that you believe GW lets Daemon player stack all those different Stratagems on top of eachother to represent fluff thing X in the rules so my argument was that it's unlikely to be the case since other Codexes can pull something crazy like that as well without having such a thing in the fluff. Context, dude.

Edited January 2, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

[DeStinyFiSh]

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

 

Maybe because of unit size?

Imagine 20 Seekers, 1 CP for 4++ and then cast the FnP on them. You would have to shoot everything you have got at such a unit to get rid of the 40 wounds... CSM cant do something like that, can they?

[Panzer]

I think they are just worried about making a fast moving Horde army too durable.

[Mileposter]

 

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

 

Maybe because of unit size?

Imagine 20 Seekers, 1 CP for 4++ and then cast the FnP on them. You would have to shoot everything you have got at such a unit to get rid of the 40 wounds... CSM cant do something like that, can they?

 

Potentially could be a stacking concern, too. Since, unless they call it out specifically, multiple sources of FNP stack now.

[Sersi]

 

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

 

Maybe because of unit size?

Imagine 20 Seekers, 1 CP for 4++ and then cast the FnP on them. You would have to shoot everything you have got at such a unit to get rid of the 40 wounds... CSM cant do something like that, can they?

 

 

That's assuming that effects an entire unit, the OP said daemon as in single model. 

[Marshlands]

I hope there are far more significant changes to greater daemons

 

The Khorne 3D6 charge for 1cp seems salty. I wont complain if true!

 

The previews hinted at a change to seekers so should at least be more of that.

 

If accurate looks like we could be seeing much shootier tzeentch armies and much stabbier nurgle armies.

 

A stratagem for +1 IS to max 3+... the potential uses of the top of my head:

 

Magnus, Mortarion, Scabbathrax, 30 daemon troops, 60 split blue/brimstone horrors, possessed, Lord of skulls, brass scorpion, ann'grath, beasts of nurgle

 

Too many good options!

Edited January 2, 2018 by Marshlands

[Sersi]

 

 

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

 

Maybe because of unit size?

Imagine 20 Seekers, 1 CP for 4++ and then cast the FnP on them. You would have to shoot everything you have got at such a unit to get rid of the 40 wounds... CSM cant do something like that, can they?

 

Potentially could be a stacking concern, too. Since, unless they call it out specifically, multiple sources of FNP stack now.

 

 

 

Two problems with that though, FNP doesn't stack unless the rule specifies it does.  Two sources of 5+ FNP do not automatically convert to a 4+ FNP save.  Second, Slaaneshi daemons don't have access to FNP currently. So, unless there's a relic, warlord trait or something else that does it going to be a flat 6+ regardless.

[Panzer]

I hope there are far more significant changes to greater daemons

 

The Khorne 3D6 charge for 1cp seems salty. I wont complain if true!

 

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if GW were to wait with the interesting greater daemon changes until those units get a new model to be honest.

 

3d6 charge doesn't seem too salty to me. Blood Angels have that for their Jump Pack units as Stratagem as well and Jump Pack units without a doubt benefit even more from such a thing.

 

 

 

 

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

 

Maybe because of unit size?

Imagine 20 Seekers, 1 CP for 4++ and then cast the FnP on them. You would have to shoot everything you have got at such a unit to get rid of the 40 wounds... CSM cant do something like that, can they?

 

Potentially could be a stacking concern, too. Since, unless they call it out specifically, multiple sources of FNP stack now.

 

 

 

Two problems with that though, FNP doesn't stack unless the rule specifies it does.  Two sources of 5+ FNP do not automatically convert to a 4+ FNP save.  Second, Slaaneshi daemons don't have access to FNP currently. So, unless there's a relic, warlord trait or something else that does it going to be a flat 6+ regardless.

 

You got that backwards. FnP abilities always stack unless the rule says otherwise. Stacking here doesn't mean it improves the other, it means you can use both one after another. So 5+ FnP and another 5+ FnP means you would roll two 5+ for each damage the model takes and ignore it if you succeed at least one of them.

[Mileposter]

**Goes to say something**

 

...

 

**Gets ninja'd**

 

...

 

**Quietly walks away.**

Edited January 2, 2018 by Mileposter

[Marshlands]

 

I hope there are far more significant changes to greater daemons

 

The Khorne 3D6 charge for 1cp seems salty. I wont complain if true!

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if GW were to wait with the interesting greater daemon changes until those units get a new model to be honest.

 

3d6 charge doesn't seem too salty to me. Blood Angels have that for their Jump Pack units as Stratagem as well and Jump Pack units without a doubt benefit even more from such a thing.

 

 

 

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

Maybe because of unit size?

Imagine 20 Seekers, 1 CP for 4++ and then cast the FnP on them. You would have to shoot everything you have got at such a unit to get rid of the 40 wounds... CSM cant do something like that, can they?

Potentially could be a stacking concern, too. Since, unless they call it out specifically, multiple sources of FNP stack now.

 

Two problems with that though, FNP doesn't stack unless the rule specifies it does. Two sources of 5+ FNP do not automatically convert to a 4+ FNP save. Second, Slaaneshi daemons don't have access to FNP currently. So, unless there's a relic, warlord trait or something else that does it going to be a flat 6+ regardless.

You got that backwards. FnP abilities always stack unless the rule says otherwise. Stacking here doesn't mean it improves the other, it means you can use both one after another. So 5+ FnP and another 5+ FnP means you would roll two 5+ for each damage the model takes and ignore it if you succeed at least one of them.

True - but theirs is 2cp, a price I would happily pay for the same ability. 1cp is an auto include - I hope it's true!

[Panzer]

Especially considering that Daemons are a horde army so they have more CP available than the rather elite Jump Pack heavy Blood Angels. ;)

[Marshlands]

Especially considering that Daemons are a horde army so they have more CP available than the rather elite Jump Pack heavy Blood Angels. ;)

At 1 CP I can see me taking a battalion with 3 deep striking units of 30 Bloodletters. 1 for each turn they're allowed to stay in reserve

[Sersi]

 

I hope there are far more significant changes to greater daemons

 

The Khorne 3D6 charge for 1cp seems salty. I wont complain if true!

 

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if GW were to wait with the interesting greater daemon changes until those units get a new model to be honest.

 

3d6 charge doesn't seem too salty to me. Blood Angels have that for their Jump Pack units as Stratagem as well and Jump Pack units without a doubt benefit even more from such a thing.

 

 

 

 

So... the Slaanesh CSM power gives 5+ FNP but the Daemon one only gives a 6+? To a model with a 5++?

 

Seems odd.

 

Maybe because of unit size?

Imagine 20 Seekers, 1 CP for 4++ and then cast the FnP on them. You would have to shoot everything you have got at such a unit to get rid of the 40 wounds... CSM cant do something like that, can they?

 

Potentially could be a stacking concern, too. Since, unless they call it out specifically, multiple sources of FNP stack now.

 

 

 

Two problems with that though, FNP doesn't stack unless the rule specifies it does.  Two sources of 5+ FNP do not automatically convert to a 4+ FNP save.  Second, Slaaneshi daemons don't have access to FNP currently. So, unless there's a relic, warlord trait or something else that does it going to be a flat 6+ regardless.

 

You got that backwards. FnP abilities always stack unless the rule says otherwise. Stacking here doesn't mean it improves the other, it means you can use both one after another. So 5+ FnP and another 5+ FnP means you would roll two 5+ for each damage the model takes and ignore it if you succeed at least one of them.

 

 

Thanks, I totally misread what stacking meant in that context.  That said two 33% chances to ignore a wound is pretty good. A single 16.7% chance to ignore a wound not so much.

[Khornestar]

And remember that the 3D6" charge is only for units with a banner (as per rumor). And deep striking isn't just 1 CP for any unit, it's based on power level. Stronger stuff costs 2 CP.

 

Also, here is a compilation of the leaks thus far, via Dakka:

 

 

 

Daemons are still 5++. 
god specific traits are the same. 
Do note that most attacks even shooting are Strength User, so +strength buffs actually are worth something now. 

+ Undivided + 

Belakor - has access to Dark Hereticus (the only one who does) 

Stratagems: 
We get a deepstrike strategem: 
* 1 CP for 8 PL and below 
* 2 Cp for 9 PL and above. 
* no other restrictions. 
you cannot reroll saving throws but it gives a daemon unit +1 to invulnerable saves. No better than 3++. 
when enemy psyker suffers perils of the warp, use this strategem, they take 2d3 MW instead of 1d3. 

+ Khorne + 

Bloodthirsters no change to pt 
Insensate Rage BT have two attack profiles now. Second (new) S:U -2 1 dmg , make 2 hit roll instead of 1 if use this attack. 
All BTs get a rule that for each unmodded hit roll of 6, they score a 2nd free hit. 

Stratagems: 
1CP Khorne. pick a banner, that unit charges 3D6 instead of 2D6. 

Artifacts: 
Khorne: (Mons only) - 4++ Deny 1 power in each enemy psychic phase. 
Khorne: 1 model. Each time you make wound roll of 6+ fr friendly khorne daemon unit within 6" of bearer, can make another free attack. 

+ Tzeentch + 

LOC/Kairos drop 20-35. 
Brimstone horrors are 6++, blues are 5++, pinks are 4++. 
Changeling lost -1 to hit for 6+++ FNP. 
Flamers are 12" range now 
Exalted are 3 shots instead of D3. 
Anything with screamers lost slashing talon but their attacks became Lamprey bite. 
Eg. 2 slashing attacks 1 bite? now 3 bites. 

Warlord Trait: 
reroll 1s to wound in 9". 

New Powers: 
Tz: 
WC6. Reroll a single dice roll later during ur turn. 
WC5. Pick friendly tz daemon unit within 18". Until next psychic phase, +1 to wound roll. 
WC8. nearest enemy model wihtin 12, that model's unit and every other unit (friend or foe) within 3' of that model , suffers d3 MW. Suffer D6 MW, if power manifested with more than psychic roll of 12+. 

Stratagems: 
2CP Tz Strat. pick a char, 6" aura of reroll psychic test. 

Artifacts: 
Tz: 1 additional TZ power 
Tz: +1 to smite cast 

+ Nurgle + 

Beast of Nurgle are 5 Wounds now , and if you try to Fall Back from them (1"), on a 4+, you do a MW. 

New powers: 
Nurgle: 
Wc7. Roll D6 for every unit (excluding nurgle) within 7" of caster. 4+ D3 MW. 
WC6. Pick enemy unit visible within 18". -1 Toughness. 
WC6 Miasma of Pestilence same as DG contagion but targets Nurgle Daemon. 

Stratagems: 
1CP Nurgle. pick a unit with an icon before battle. during 1 fight phase. dmg characteristtics of a plaguesword carried by that unit increased to 2 

Artifacts: 
Nurgle: everytime bearer kills a model in fight phase while within 7' of a plaguebearer unit , on a 4+, add a PB to that unit. 

+ Slaanesh + 

New powers: 
Slaanesh: 
WC5. Select friendly slaanhesh daemon within 18". 6+++ FnP 
WC6. select enemy unit within 18 visible. Roll d6 for every model in that enemy unit. on a 6, 1 mw. 
WC6. All enenmy unit -1 ld within 12 inch of psyker. 

Stratagems: 
1CP Slaanesh. pick slaanesh daemon unit, all units within 3inch of that -1Attack for that phase. (To a minimum of 1.) 

Artifacts: 
Slaanesh: 1x per game, start of phase, select enemy char within 12" roll 3d6, if exceed enemy char ld, it cannot do anything, and its abilities dont affect anything.

 

Also, the person leaking is being intentionally vague and incomplete from fear of breaking the rules and having the leak police abduct him in the middle of the night.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Juggernut

[Commissar K.]

I hope there are far more significant changes to greater daemons

 

The Khorne 3D6 charge for 1cp seems salty. I wont complain if true!

 

The previews hinted at a change to seekers so should at least be more of that.

 

If accurate looks like we could be seeing much shootier tzeentch armies and much stabbier nurgle armies.

 

A stratagem for +1 IS to max 3+... the potential uses of the top of my head:

 

Magnus, Mortarion, Scabbathrax, 30 daemon troops, 60 split blue/brimstone horrors, possessed, Lord of skulls, brass scorpion, ann'grath, beasts of nurgle

 

Too many good options!

As a summary of the above, keep in mind Bloodthirsters specifically seemed to have recieved more boosts. So no cost decrease basically means to me that they have been decreased and upped again due to added abilities ;) 

 

Bloodthirster will be his own Locus (and yes mixed this will not work but it's clear GW wants to somewhat prefent that for Chaos Daemons) so he too gets:

- Re-rolls for charges.

- We have seen that they have obtained a rule that allows for an additional attack on wound rolls of 6's. 

- Can now be deepstriked.

 

But otherwise I think the key design of 8th is very well represented here. I think Chaos Daemons on it's own isn't the scariest prospect ever but mixed with other Chaos books it is. Be it Codex CSM or Imperial Armour or whatever is left from the Index for them. As mentioned, it isn't too difficult for them to accumulate a bunch of Stratagems and in addition to that Heralds are cheap.

 

From my perspective the only thing really needed for Daemons was more buff bubbles and guaranteed deep striking/summonning. They recieved that so I'm certain there is enough ground for them to work with now. 

 

Big exception might be Slaanesh but that's completely due to GW not giving them something for a lot of years now. The saving grace for Khorne in my opinion really comes from the options in Bloodthirsters and all Bloodletter related models being good. Karanak is also a fun bane to Psykers so that's good too. Blend with CSM or cultists and profit. 

[Commissar K.]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/02/faction-focus-daemons-of-khornegw-homepage-post-4/

Looking forward to more :) 

[Mileposter]

... 24 Warlrod Traits. Holy Emperor.