Prot Mini-Batrep: 2K Admech vs Tyranids ( Pics)

[Prot]

Sorry for the brief report. Time is really tight, but I wanted to at least document this game....

Game Setup: (POST Chapter Approved 2017)

Maelstrom, 2,000 pts, Deployment: Frontline Assault.

AdMech:

Brigade:

Cawl

Dominus

Techpriest

5 Vanguard/Ranger sqds

5 Torsion/Claw Breachers (New Test post Chapter Approved)

5 Infiltrators

1 Datasmith

10 Jazz Hands

3 Dragoons

3 Phosphor Kastelans

2 Onagers Nutrons

Nids:
Lots.

Tervigon + Gaunt Blob

Fart cloud squad (I always forget the name of these things. Essentially three dudes that force you to fire at -1)

Super Zoanthrope

20 Geneastealers

Tentacle super bug (Sorry forget the name, it's a close combat massive bug)

Trygon (deep strikes with mortal wounds)

5 (?) Hive Guard

squads of spore mines

Deathleaper

Shooty Carniefex

Shooty Flyrant

Shooty Warrior Squad

The Mission is a new one.. pretty cool one: Kill Confirmed (?) Basically you have 3 cards a turn, but cannot discard any 'kill unit' type cards, and if at any point during your turn you kill any unit, you get a bonus victory point. A fairly balanced idea.

Here's what my army looked like (there is some minor proxying, mostly the Breachers)

+Hold the line boys. Here's the plan: Nids are hungry for meat, but we're more like chewing through an old 50's TV set. Indigestion for the win? +

- I lose the roll to go first, I cannot seize.

Here's our deployment:

The Nids are a bit off screen, but you get the idea. One side is charging forward, the other is filling their boots with used batteries. +

- Early Game:

- Nids get good rolls. I am defenseless against the psychic phase but at this range it is mostly a buff session.

- He does get first blood....and I can't believe how deadly the Hive Guard are! They take down 1 and a half Breachers. He infiltratred his Deathleaper behind some crates as well. But keeps the rest of his reserves intact. He takes an early 3 point lead (gets a bonus "Kill Confirmed", accomplishes a kill card, and First Blood.)

- His turn is strong with shooting between those Hive Guard, and all the shots from the Gaunts (special psychic ability? allows him to advance and shoot) and Flyrant + Carnifex.

- I draw 2 cards I can't do, but one is a shooting kill type! This is big because of where he put the Deathleaper.

- This is where things get ugly for me (yes this soon)... I realize the fart cloud -1 to hit pretty much extends to his entire army. The Gaunts are already getting close because his special rule is roll mutli advance dice, and pick the highest. I have no real damagable targets with my low end firepower. It takes a LOT to kill about 6 gaunts... then I remember, with the Tervigon he can regen 10 per turn! Ugh. What a fool... I blame Cawl... he's so cocky.

- I realize that I can barely see the Tervigon with a few key Dunecrawler Nutron shots, but with the -1 to hit Cawl is helping a bit, but not enough. Also the Tervigon warlord trait is -1 to all Damage. That's actually huge. I do about 5 wounds to the Tervigon, but it maybe takes 3?

- The Torsion cannons have re rolls but again everything is so hard to hit. It's darn good Cawl allows rerolls of ANY to hit or I truly would be screwed. The bad BS of Kastelans and Breachers is keenly felt here... I need 6's to hit the bloody Deathleaper, and the Kastelans moved (change protocols for next turn) and therefore need 6's to hit his army! This is killing me.

- I kill one unit. The Deathleaper is hit twice ,but wounded twice, and the Torsion guns split him apart. This gets me 2 points. But the rest of the turn is abysmal. I can't hit anything, and wounding is bad. The 3 Arquebus' do nothing as they do every game for me. (I think I got one wound off the Flyrant).

Mid Game:

+ A shiny, obscure, robot from the back yells, "The odds of us surviving first contact are 3,720 to 1." Cawl deactivates the robot, and fires up an escape pod. +

- Yes it looks bad. This is T2. He draws another kill card, and an objective. He has a fairly mediocre psychic phase which is good for me.

- His Mawloc comes in, spanks some mortal wounds all around him. Then the shooting starts....

- Flyrant finishes off a squad, gaunts split fire and hose a bunch of Vanguard/Rangers. I have canticles Shroudpsalm running and it makes a HUGE difference on a few Vanguard, soaking up tons of fire. But weight of fire catches up... the Hive Guard ignore cover, and pop my Kastelan, and remove another Breacher.

- Here's something I may have done illegally but it did not have an overall efffect. When the Mawloc came in, I played the Strategem that lets the Jazz hands fire 'as if in shooting phase (but at -1 BS). And I used Cawl's aura. I couldn't figure out if this was right or not... I don't use Cawl often and realized his shooting aura is for shooting phase, but the strat said to treat it like a shooting phase so I hope this was correct???

- I also had Jazz hands use the Wrath of Mars. Still I could not kill the Mawloc when it came in. That was ugly. It took about 2 mortal wounds and 4-5 more wounds, but it had a fair amount left.

- End of Nid Turn and I'm shot up far worse than he is, and about to be assaulted.

+From the nid perspective: A Sicarnan Surprise attack. A total act of desperation. Indecision causes these guys to blue-screen at the worst possible moment. I think they've been hit with ransom ware and won't be functional until Cawl can come up with some bitcoins. +

- This is truly desperate. My opponent convinces me to take on the Tervigon with my shooting, and I agree... it's a sound judgement. But with all the damage reduction, and -1 to hit, the Dunecrawlers still struggle. The Torsion cannons have maybe... 1-2 shots. They take it. But fail to do anything. The Tervigon is holding me from killing Gaunts. I don't have LoS from anything else so... I throw reason to the wind and really do something stupid....

- The Sicaran Infiltrators come in; I had a card where I needed to take an objective from my opponent for 2 points. I desperately need these two points to just stay in the game.

- I had 3 wounds to get rid of on the Tervigon. My original plan was to shoot up the Hive Guard though... they were really shredding me, now that they hit on 3's (not moving) and go through shroudpslam. So against my better judgement I throw 25 Strength 3 shots into the Tervigon and use two strategems: one to reroll 1's to hit, and Wrath of Mars. I hit a lot... a fair amount, but I only get about 3 wounds, and 1-2 mortal wounds. The Tervigon stands with 3 wounds left.

- Back at the ranch, the Dragoons have to finish the job that the Arquebus' fail to yet again, by charging the Mawloc. They take a wound or two, but the Mawloc still lives. Some remaining Vanguard shots ignore the Gaunts because while the Tervigon lives, this will be futile. They shoot at some Spore mines, but I get zero points for spore mines (special rule).

- The Jazz hands fire up again, and they fire everything into the Genestealers, as usual the army is -1 to hit... I maybe kill 5-6 out of 20.

- I can't kill the Flyrant, and I finally can see part of the squad of that is emitting the -1 to hit cloud... I kill 2 out of 3 of them, so the cloud still exists....

- The Sicarans are now entirely screwed. They killed nothing in shooting. I was going to assault the Hive Guard pictured above, but my opponent convinces me with Tazer Goads I can get those last three wounds. I'll tell you at T8 a Tervigon is bloody hard to take down, especially reducing damage, and -1 to hit. I feel it's a big miss match, but I do it... I successfully charge the Tervigon (instead of the Hive Guard).

Of course this is a massive, massive mistake. So I don't go for the Maelstrom points on the Hiveguard, and they can shoot like crazy, so that's two bad moves combined, because I bounce right off the Tervigon causing zero wounds. At 3 wounds I hoped he wouldn't be able to move far enough away from my squad to become unengaged, but apparently he can! Great news everybody, I killed no units this turn and am entirely exposed!

+ Don't worry boys, they hate chewing on metal....+

- Turn 3 is a good draw for my opponent. He's had reserves that really didn't have a job until now, he draws some objectives and the reserves take them.

- He advances, and smites me successfully in a few areas depleting squads.

- Shooting is fully normal thanks to my stupid moves, and bouncing off the Tervigon. As a result:

- Sicarians are shot dead

- Jazz Hands are shot to death with Gauts/Carnie

- Rangers/Vanguard are shot to death with Flyrant.

- I lose some other stuff... so before assault and the ensuing tabling, I concede. Cawl crawls in an escape pod mumbling something about 'resurrecting a better Primarch' and takes off...

Conclusion:

- Totally wiped. Torsion Breachers did nothing- but it was a bad match up. Really bad. They would have been a good anti-assault, short range marine type killer but this was the wrong match up.

- I was out shot. Out psykered, and out assaulted. That's rough.

- -1 to hit seemed to be super penal to this army. My best shooting (aside from Onagers) comes from BS4 (BS5 if moved) and BS4 Breachers. Even with Cawl my inability to hit was poor.

- I was out maneuvered (typical with Admech) but without having an answer to an unbreakable horde, I had no options for movement. I had no answer for the Tervigon, and therefore no answer for the lead horde, nor the secondary horde of Genestealers. The buffer this created gave his Hive Guard and psychic phase free reign. This was key, but I saw no way to change the outcome of this game..... while I have done an honest assessment of mistakes I made, I don't think I could have changed the results....back to the drawing board!!!

Edited December 6, 2017 by Prot

[Vel'Cona]

Stinks about the Breachers.  Was really hoping to watch them blow up the meta, but you're right about this being the wrong match up for them.

 

Do you think Cawl is worth the loss of maneuverability/protection you'd get from playing Lucius/Stygies VIII?  He's definitely brawny but I can't help but think those other Dogmas offer a lot more support for the rest of the force (By the by, AMAZING work on Cawl overall, especially the glowey lantern/weapon :D).

 

Are you set on pure AdMech?  I feel that sliding in Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex or (if you're averse to FW) Inquisitor Greyfax might be just the ticket to fend off the domination of the Psychic Phase, and they're a very small tax.

 

What are you thoughts to address the horde issue?  I personally don't see an easy method for this native to the list but I'm sure there has to be something.

[librisrouge]

Ouch! Yeah, -1 to hit is the best rule this edition and any faction that can take that as their trait is stronger than any other factions.

[Prot]

Yup, that -1 affected me far more than I would have guessed.

 

 

Stinks about the Breachers.  Was really hoping to watch them blow up the meta, but you're right about this being the wrong match up for them.

 

Do you think Cawl is worth the loss of maneuverability/protection you'd get from playing Lucius/Stygies VIII?  He's definitely brawny but I can't help but think those other Dogmas offer a lot more support for the rest of the force (By the by, AMAZING work on Cawl overall, especially the glowey lantern/weapon ).

 

Are you set on pure AdMech?  I feel that sliding in Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex or (if you're averse to FW) Inquisitor Greyfax might be just the ticket to fend off the domination of the Psychic Phase, and they're a very small tax.

 

What are you thoughts to address the horde issue?  I personally don't see an easy method for this native to the list but I'm sure there has to be something.

 

 

Those are good thoughts... those are things I've contemplated in my recent games. 

 

Cawl as well as a good portion of the list is about experimentation for me. I think most people reading this know I'm big on using units that are.... underachievers and seeing what can be done. 

 

In saying that I know how to harden the list.. immensely. Just tons of Kastobot-Cawl Wall but it's super boring for me anyway. I really hate static play. It's why I typically own/play aggressive armies.

 

You're right about the Breachers.... this was a horrible match up. At the same time I thought the Breachers lack of anti-spam ability would be taken up by the Priests, and Vanguard. However again the -1 was really big, and killing any less than 10 Gaunts equated to literally killing 0 a turn. This put me in a tough decision process between half baked expectations of thinning a horde vs. long odds of killing higher priority models (high toughness- and -1 to hit). 

 

In any other situation involving marines or equivalent I would have had a better time with this list, but we never know who we're playing before hand so it's like a random matchup.

 

Anti-horde is one thing, but.... overcoming the -1 to hit + the hordes are unbreakable. This is actually a very solid nid trick because a 30 man squad of gaunts + 20 Genestealers all the sudden feel like 50-60 man squads... you just can't put the wounds on, and they come back from the dead (gaunts). I had to kill the Tervigon. 

 

Moving forward I would take no less than 10 Sicaran Infiltrators. I've toyed with this idea for a month now, but I wanted to experiment this first. The absolute horrid movement of the army can be compensated somewhat by 50 shots, with Wrath of Mars.  

 

You're right, I could make the army overall a bit better with multi Dogma's. I'm just stubborn. :)

[Silentz]

Good battle report, tough matchup.   The issue with the CawlWall style of AdMech play (which I also play) is that it's very static and shooty based... so the Raven Guard style -1 to hit is dreadful.

 

I recently proxied some Ruststalkers as more Infiltrators to run 10, and deep struck them to do 50 shots with Wrath of Mars, then charged and did Conqueror Protocols to give 3 hits on 5+...  pretty destructive despite the S3 shooting. 

 

Against a vehicle heavy army, breachers aren't so bad.  

[brother_b]

Sorry for the brief report. Time is really tight, but I wanted to at least document this game.... 

 

Wonderful looking army. Just amazing what you can put out, the quality AND quantity.

 

Nids, ugh, they look tough. I haven't faced them yet.

 

I'm not sure where I would go, as your army looks a lot like the army I'm building. I'm not sure what we can do for horde destruction, save a huge unit of Castellans, maybe those flamers on the servitors.

 

Anyway, great looking game, and good info and insight.

[MagicHat]

Venomthropes doesn't give -1 to hit in combat and just dropping one would have meant his monsters couldn't benefit.

 

Hope you have better luck next time.

[Prot]

 

I recently proxied some Ruststalkers as more Infiltrators to run 10, and deep struck them to do 50 shots with Wrath of Mars, then charged and did Conqueror Protocols to give 3 hits on 5+...  pretty destructive despite the S3 shooting. 

 

Against a vehicle heavy army, breachers aren't so bad.  

 

Thank you. And yup, that's exactly what I intended to do. (I am using my friend's 5 Infiltrators, and will proxy 5 more with his Russtalkers!)

 

I do think the Breachers aren't so bad, but for the points it made me think a lot about having 5 shots at 24" that hit on 4's (or 5's in this game). That's really rough. I'm not sure the points are worth it, but as noted, it wasn't their kind of match up. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure where I would go, as your army looks a lot like the army I'm building. I'm not sure what we can do for horde destruction, save a huge unit of Castellans, maybe those flamers on the servitors.

 

Anyway, great looking game, and good info and insight.

 

 

Thank you. I don't think there's anything wrong with the core. I love a Bridgade with AdMech, and I'm very okay with Vanguard/Rangers.

 

Honestly... I'm thinking about an abbreviated Brigade, and a Knight Paladin. 

 

We can repair (I think) up to 2 wounds a turn with the strategem. The Knight can't be held up. Knight stompy feet are decent against hordes, and the twin Battle cannon is a fave of mine. It might be the frontline I need to give me freedom of movement.

 

Or not... I know Knights get a lot of negativity. ;)

 

 

Venomthropes doesn't give -1 to hit in combat and just dropping one would have meant his monsters couldn't benefit.

 

Hope you have better luck next time.

 

Right. He never did claim -1 to my assaults. (I just sucked at it. ) 

 

Unfortunately I could not really see the Venomthropes until the bottom of turn 2. I was happy to get 2 dead (actually quite lucky) but it was too late. That single Venomthrope still helped the horde-ish stuff well into my lines. Thanks for the well wishes. I shall be less... experimental next time!

[Honda]

My opponent convinces me to take on the Tervigon with my shooting, and I agree..

 

 

 

I was going to assault the Hive Guard pictured above, but my opponent convinces me with Tazer Goads I can get those last three wounds.  I'll tell you at T8 a Tervigon is bloody hard to take down, especially reducing damage, and -1 to hit. I feel it's a big miss match, but I do it... I successfully charge the Tervigon (instead of the Hive Guard).

 

Of course this is a massive, massive mistake.

 

 

So what is the name of the Tyranid psychic power where the opponent always convinces you to do the wrong thing?

 

I was very impressed with that one. It might turn the Tyranids into a one trick army though. :P

[Prot]

 

My opponent convinces me to take on the Tervigon with my shooting, and I agree..

 

 

 

I was going to assault the Hive Guard pictured above, but my opponent convinces me with Tazer Goads I can get those last three wounds.  I'll tell you at T8 a Tervigon is bloody hard to take down, especially reducing damage, and -1 to hit. I feel it's a big miss match, but I do it... I successfully charge the Tervigon (instead of the Hive Guard).

 

Of course this is a massive, massive mistake.

 

 

So what is the name of the Tyranid psychic power where the opponent always convinces you to do the wrong thing?

 

I was very impressed with that one. It might turn the Tyranids into a one trick army though.

 

 

You caught that, did you? Yes it's called, "Prot is a simple minded fool". Warp Charge 1. Can't be denied. :tu:

[Charlo]

The -1 to hit traits just seem so bloody over powered this edition and personally I feel like it's poor design. Especially on something like Tyranids where you really need to thin them before they reach critical mass and can shoot you back well on the way to swarming you.

 

As usual a great report but the 'nids just seem very powerful this edition, which is a good thing!

 

In an ideal world, what changes would you make to the list to help round it out against something like this?

[Vel'Cona]

Now imagine if one of the Ork Clans get -1 to hit army-wide 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Vel'Cona

[Charlo]

Now imagine if one of the Ork Clans gets -1 to hit army-wide 

 

Could very easily be Kult of Speed or Snakebites........

[Redtoof]

 

Now imagine if one of the Ork Clans gets -1 to hit army-wide  :ph34r:

 

 

Could very easily be Kult of Speed or Snakebites........

My money is on Blood Axes if anyone at all. They are the sneaky ones. Though I'd love for my big blue Squiggoth to get -1 to hit him...

[Vel'Cona]

Don't wanna de-rail this thing.  Do you guys feel like -1 to hit is a zero sum game?  Like, if both armies have it, does that mean neither are at an advantage?

 

I feel like if that's the meta we're going to see, more players will push toward close-range/assault based armies.  Deep striking MAY be a good counter too, since you can place the unit within 12" and avoid the negative modifier altogether.

[Prot]

  Do you guys feel like -1 to hit is a zero sum game?  Like, if both armies have it, does that mean neither are at an advantage?

 

 

Nope. Here's why....

 

Most -1 to hit armies, don't care about shooting. If you could make a -1 to hit assault aura then perhaps it balances? But for right now...by the mechanical digits of Caw's third arm.... Orks better NOT get an aura like that. Seriously I have a lot of problems with them already! ;)

 

 

As far as what I can do... we kind of touched on this but all I can think of is a Knight (for some offensive push but the ability to repair)

 

I may try it tonight. I should put a new post though.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Don't wanna de-rail this thing.  Do you guys feel like -1 to hit is a zero sum game?  Like, if both armies have it, does that mean neither are at an advantage?

 

I feel like if that's the meta we're going to see, more players will push toward close-range/assault based armies.  Deep striking MAY be a good counter too, since you can place the unit within 12" and avoid the negative modifier altogether.

 

I don't think the -1 is zero sum, I think it favors the more mobile of the two armies. Its just a lot easier for the faster army to control the distance, grab objectives, and to react when the slower force has to tip its hand. 

 

Deep striking is actually pretty devastating it just needs to be at a higher volume than a lot of players are running. 

 

I do we'll see a switch to more close range/assault armies, but it has more to do with what has been released so far. The meta has just been so shooting heavy that its been more a question of whether your gunline handle all the chaff, then really even worrying about the fight phase. It'll be interesting to see how some of the current armies can handle having a few armies that try and rush in.

[synthaside]

Another fab bat report from you Prot, I loved the war of the world's references. From now on when I play my army im going to be hearing this in my mind.
https://youtu.be/2eCAphdQPck

Nids are a very nasty matchup for us and any nid player worth their salt will do their best to hide from your fire  , The -1  is massively punishing to us especially because you can't even get within 12 to remove it like the Eldar Craftworld or raven Gaurd Traits.

I experienced similar fighting dark angels with their stupid dark shroud castled up with  the lion helm for -1 hit  and 4+ Invulnerable on land raiders and Razorbacks , It was disgusting, Thank god the Dark Angels codex has spotted it and it no longer applies to vehicles only infantry.

I know you couldn't see the offending Venomthropes until turn 2 but I did notice something missing from your list which would have helped massively "Icarus arrays " Particularly with the stratagem to give them 2+ to hit. Venomthropes and of course dark shroud have fly meaning we hit them on a 2+  -1  is a 3+ that fine but use the stratagem and were back to hitting them on 2's ( 1's are always misses) with 10 shots those Thropes are T4  so all the profiles are wounding on 3's and not getting a save against  the Daedalus or the Gatling Rockets.

This works great against those hive tyrants too , happy hunting