Primarch's series: best so far?

[mc warhammer]

 

maybe it's because of the overall negative feedback i read here, so i went in un-hyped, but i quite liked the guilliman entry in this series. i found the conflict within the nemesis chapter really interesting (though i would have liked even more) and the mystery behind the lost culture of thaos hooked me 

Yeah, the Destroyers and the lost culture were both interesting, but apart from a few interactions with Marius Gage we didn't learn to much about Guilliman himself, which was a shame.

 

 

i thought there was...maybe you'd call it reinforcement, rather than revelation...of gulliaman's idealism underneath his pragmatism. his thoughts on his role post crusade, wanting to preserve the remains of thoros and his attitude towards the destroyers all did that for me.

 

it was also interesting the way he continued to give his men chances to prove themselves, rather than just assume their future actions based on past behaviour (even when he turned out to be right about them, he still investigated and hoped for the best). quite different to most other primarch depictions, except maybe horus.

 

the story also helps put to bed the internet belief that he wasn't much of a scrapper fight-wise. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by mc warhammer

[DarkChaplain]

 

maybe it's because of the overall negative feedback i read here, so i went in un-hyped, but i quite liked the guilliman entry in this series. i found the conflict within the nemesis chapter really interesting (though i would have liked even more) and the mystery behind the lost culture of thaos hooked me 

Yeah, the Destroyers and the lost culture were both interesting, but apart from a few interactions with Marius Gage we didn't learn to much about Guilliman himself, which was a shame.

 

 

I've made the point on at least two threads discussing the book before, I believe, but it told us A LOT about Guilliman that isn't immediately obvious. He has a really big issue balancing his idealistic streak with the relatively cold rationale and clinical procedure he's known for. It speaks of how Guilliman is trying to counterbalance the destruction wrought upon Monarchia by keeping some culture intact, at no small cost to his Legion. It gave us an insight into how his doctrines and descriptions of Konor and his youth influence his present-day decision making.

 

 

It has to be Perturabo followed by Leman Russ closely. Lorgar was good but it was less about Lorgar and more about Kor Phoraen vs another character with Lorgar nothing but a pawn.

 

I didn't feel that way at all. Both Kor Phaeron and Nairo believe at some point that they've got the better of Lorgar and may be able to manipulate him to their own ends, but both of them end up disappointed in that regard, and even terrified by him. A lot of that novel is Lorgar paying lip service and doing just what he needs to to get what he wants, in the end, while knowing that Lorgar may well end up discarding them once they've served their purpose. Which is exactly what was supposed to happen at Calth when Lorgar sent part of his Legion as a sacrifice, Lorgar and Erebus included.

 

The novel did an extremely good job showing how Lorgar, who was a seemingly vulnerable child with little to no context to his life and role or the world and universe around him, built himself up through teachers he knew to be unreliable, vengeful, hypocritical and deluded, and before long manipulating his manipulators and an entire world. They realize that he's outgrown them and it scares them in different ways.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

maybe it's because of the overall negative feedback i read here, so i went in un-hyped, but i quite liked the guilliman entry in this series. i found the conflict within the nemesis chapter really interesting (though i would have liked even more) and the mystery behind the lost culture of thaos hooked me 

Yeah, the Destroyers and the lost culture were both interesting, but apart from a few interactions with Marius Gage we didn't learn to much about Guilliman himself, which was a shame.

 

 

I've made the point on at least two threads discussing the book before, I believe, but it told us A LOT about Guilliman that isn't immediately obvious. He has a really big issue balancing his idealistic streak with the relatively cold rationale and clinical procedure he's known for. It speaks of how Guilliman is trying to counterbalance the destruction wrought upon Monarchia by keeping some culture intact, at no small cost to his Legion. It gave us an insight into how his doctrines and descriptions of Konor and his youth influence his present-day decision making.

 

 

 

 

yeah, i probably missed your posts while playing spoiler-dodgeball; your point about monarchia is a great one i forgot to mention.

 

also enjoyed the contrast of guilliman to fulgrim when talking about their views of war as art.

[Knockagh]

Yes the Gulliman book has been debated to death. And I get that some see it illustrating Gullimans character to some degree or showcasing a forgotten element of ultra marine culture.

But you just can’t get away from it being a bad story, that’s boring, bland and uninteresting.

[DarkChaplain]

That's a matter of perspective, innit? Almost like people had different tastes.

[mc warhammer]

That's a matter of perspective, innit? Almost like people had different tastes.

 

 

you talk the crazy talk

[Tymell]

That's a matter of perspective, innit? Almost like people had different tastes.

 

HERESY!

[Knockagh]

Yes your right it is a matter of taste and we will never all agree.... thankfully! Or BL fiction would be rather bland and we would have little to discuss here.

[nagashnee]

Another vote for Perturabo, was hands down my favourite in the series. I can only hope Sanguinius book is the same level. 

[Amun Ra]

Yes the Gulliman book has been debated to death. And I get that some see it illustrating Gullimans character to some degree or showcasing a forgotten element of ultra marine culture.

But you just can’t get away from it being a bad story, that’s boring, bland and uninteresting.

It was the first released if I recall correctly? It feels like from a different series, more a battles book than the following releases.enjoyable enough, just, different.

 

Another vote for Perturabo here, although Russ pushes it very closely.

[Ascanius]

The squad in perturabo was arguably one of the better plots in the book for me, really enjoyed the inner workings and conclusion of that line.

 

There's a continuity error, though; one of the squad members who's killed by the hrud is on Olympia at the end. *shrugs*

[Calas Typhon]

Regardless of that being true or not, I did not notice and neither did much of the community if it was true, it was good. The squad was still one of my favourite storylines in the book.

[Ascanius]

It is a fine story. I just thought that was funny.

[Brother Dimetrius]

Rough top 3:

 

Lorgar

Perturabo

Magnus

[caladancid]

Top 3 for me: 

 

Magnus

Leman Russ

Perturabo

[Sandlemad]

Lorgar. Didn't expect it to be my favourite but it's got the most interesting stuff going on. Kudos to Gav for livening up the most tired, well-worn and conservative form of narrative about primarchs: the good old hero's journey, from discovery to reunion with the emperor, something which the other primarch books so far have largely (and rightly) avoided.

 

Gav takes the radical approach of not letting us into Lorgar's head in a book titled Lorgar. You're not invited to identify with this demigod through adolescent growth and learning but instead watch Lorgar from the perspectives of other characters with increasing hope and apprehension. The inner feelings of primarchs have been done well before and Lorgar's interior life done better than most but this was fascinating. There's no attempt to represent the larger-than-life and semi-alien mind of a superhuman being so it can't fall short, almost by definition.

As Gav wrote him, Lorgar is inscrutable. You can only understand his motivations and feelings from how they come out in the world, and inevitably this means you're reading the ocean currents from tides on a beach. It's a primarch that still feels dangerous, mythical and awe-inspiring.

 

This is how Horus was written in Horus Rising - he's impressive because you see him from Loken's POV, even when he is conflicted or emotional - and I think the heresy series would've looked very different if that approach was more common. A lot of good stuff would never have been written of course but it would have felt grander and kept more of that mythical titanomachy flavour than exists now.

[caladancid]

Speaking of Primarch novels. The beginning chapter of Fulgrim has the most I think that has ever been written about one of the Lost Legions.

[Kelborn]

Interesting. I thought that the Lost Legions were banned from being mentioned or played with in BL novels...

[Knockagh]

Lorgar. Didn't expect it to be my favourite but it's got the most interesting stuff going on. Kudos to Gav for livening up the most tired, well-worn and conservative form of narrative about primarchs: the good old hero's journey, from discovery to reunion with the emperor, something which the other primarch books so far have largely (and rightly) avoided.

 

Gav takes the radical approach of not letting us into Lorgar's head in a book titled Lorgar. You're not invited to identify with this demigod through adolescent growth and learning but instead watch Lorgar from the perspectives of other characters with increasing hope and apprehension. The inner feelings of primarchs have been done well before and Lorgar's interior life done better than most but this was fascinating. There's no attempt to represent the larger-than-life and semi-alien mind of a superhuman being so it can't fall short, almost by definition.

As Gav wrote him, Lorgar is inscrutable. You can only understand his motivations and feelings from how they come out in the world, and inevitably this means you're reading the ocean currents from tides on a beach. It's a primarch that still feels dangerous, mythical and awe-inspiring.

 

This is how Horus was written in Horus Rising - he's impressive because you see him from Loken's POV, even when he is conflicted or emotional - and I think the heresy series would've looked very different if that approach was more common. A lot of good stuff would never have been written of course but it would have felt grander and kept more of that mythical titanomachy flavour than exists now.

Nail on the head right there. The mystique around super humans needs to be maintained. The primarchs series always had the danger of getting too close to the indescribable and it not working. It didn’t work with Gulliman it did with Perturabo but the best route is to do what Gav does so wonderfully by showing us what it’s like to be in the company of someone so different and amazing. Gullimans return to the m41 is another massive risk.

The emperor is another beast altogether. I would quake in fear at being given the job of writing him.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Punishing Pete

[caladancid]

Interesting. I thought that the Lost Legions were banned from being mentioned or played with in BL novels...

 

 

I hadn't heard this, but thought the authors were avoiding it in general after Betrayer.

 

But there it is, a description of the personality of the II Legion Primarch.

[Kelborn]

 

 

Interesting. I thought that the Lost Legions were banned from being mentioned or played with in BL novels...

 

I hadn't heard this, but thought the authors were avoiding it in general after Betrayer.

 

But there it is, a description of the personality of the II Legion Primarch.

That's what I ment. Huh...is it mentioned in The Fulgrim thread?

 

Curious to see what they did.

[Sandlemad]

 

That's what I ment. Huh...is it mentioned in The Fulgrim thread?

 

Curious to see what they did.

 

 

"The others seemed to share his disdain. Fulgrim bowed his head, suddenly weary. Seven voices, raised in doubt. Seven brothers, arrayed against the eighth. Even the normally contemplative master of the Second had broken his silence to accuse Fulgrim of hubris.

He snorted. There was an old Terran saying, about pots and kettles. He'd refrained from sharing it at the time. His quiet brother had no sense of humour that he was aware of. Perhaps that was why he spoke so little."

 

Minor but evocative and entirely from Fulgrim's POV and to Fulgrim's focus. Interestingly Reynolds' second Fabius book also had a casual reference to the second primarch leading an expedition to the Ymga monolith.

[bluntblade]

That sounds about right for one or two B&C Lost Primarchs.

[Kelborn]

That sounds about right for one or two B&C Lost Primarchs.

Had the same thought. ;)

[bluntblade]

Sadly, not Alexandros. Unless Fulgrim just got him totally wrong.