This Thursday on Warhammer TV...

[Zodd1888]

 

Still gotta wonder what the second part of our trait is.

They mentioned cultists gain a lot from our trait, though they are not psykers, so it has to have something else-and there does not appear to be anything that effects the gors.

I dont know what would we could get that cultists wound gain a lot from. I dont even use cultists as it is. I would say +1 invul but custodes have that although it's not like TS couldn't get it.

It may be the only lose 1 model to morale that has been spoken about previously. Ut would be effective for the Tzaangor and Cultist blob squads.

[Skerr]

It was fun to watch and we got some great tidbits though remember they were only revealing what they had to reveal and were playing their cards as close to the vest as possible.  I only got to watch through turn 2 though I heard not one reference to a new aura only that Maggies changed.  They even played the Keyword of the Shaman (or Ahriman on Disc) secret catching themselves from saying the keyword was changed to "XYZ" and seemed to backtrack into just "Changing"... due to the disk

 

I don't think i heard what specific dmg Doombolt does other than DMG and half movement. Str 8 or 10 any AP?  I was hoping for MW but like half movement.

 

Does Glamour really give a minus 1 to friendlies or was that typo or mistake on the presenters and meant enemies.

 

The added range on spells and more spells means more Psyche heavy lists and I think that is great news.  A second component to the legion trait that cultists can benefit from sounds promising.

 

I seemed to hear lots of talk about ways to add, stack or take away inviulns or maybe it was just conjecture on the part of the presenter that looked like the lead singer of Supertramp.

 

 

We may not have yet been privy to Exalted Sorcerer goodness because they might be saving that for Feb (hey gotta hope) and another Live event.

 

A little disappointed that the mutilith buffs friendlies instead of hurting/ debuffing enemies though i can live with it.

 

Not sold on the enlightened yet though they were obviously holding back on load out options.

 

Still very excited on the spell versatility and what our Sqaud sorcerers have full access to.

[hhhdan]

It was fun to watch and we got some great tidbits though remember they were only revealing what they had to reveal and were playing their cards as close to the vest as possible.  I only got to watch through turn 2 though I heard not one reference to a new aura only that Maggies changed.  They even played the Keyword of the Shaman (or Ahriman on Disc) secret catching themselves from saying the keyword was changed to "XYZ" and seemed to backtrack into just "Changing"... due to the disk

 

I don't think i heard what specific dmg Doombolt does other than DMG and half movement. Str 8 or 10 any AP?  I was hoping for MW but like half movement.

 

Does Glamour really give a minus 1 to friendlies or was that typo or mistake on the presenters and meant enemies.

 

The added range on spells and more spells means more Psyche heavy lists and I think that is great news.  A second component to the legion trait that cultists can benefit from sounds promising.

 

I seemed to hear lots of talk about ways to add, stack or take away inviulns or maybe it was just conjecture on the part of the presenter that looked like the lead singer of Supertramp.

 

 

We may not have yet been privy to Exalted Sorcerer goodness because they might be saving that for Feb (hey gotta hope) and another Live event.

 

A little disappointed that the mutilith buffs friendlies instead of hurting/ debuffing enemies though i can live with it.

 

Not sold on the enlightened yet though they were obviously holding back on load out options.

 

Still very excited on the spell versatility and what our Sqaud sorcerers have full access to.

 

glamour is -1 to hit a friendly unit

 

they did say something about mutalith dishing out mrtal wounds. 'he wants to get to combat as fast as possible to hurt them with those mortal wounds' was the quote i think

 

I believe the taking away invuls was a reference to death hex power (magnus had it)

[BoomWolf]

 

 

Still gotta wonder what the second part of our trait is.

They mentioned cultists gain a lot from our trait, though they are not psykers, so it has to have something else-and there does not appear to be anything that effects the gors.

I dont know what would we could get that cultists wound gain a lot from. I dont even use cultists as it is. I would say +1 invul but custodes have that although it's not like TS couldn't get it.

It may be the only lose 1 model to morale that has been spoken about previously. Ut would be effective for the Tzaangor and Cultist blob squads.

 

 

 

Unlikely, it would be so much better than WB that it ceases to be funny.

WB may be junk, but you can't give TS a strictly better variation of their trait with extras.

 

 

Something tzeentch used to have (at least in FW) is hitting overwatch on 5, maybe that's what it is?

[Skerr]

Losing 1 to morale tests would be pretty sweet.  That in combo with +6 in would be boss!  I am thinking of the minus 1 to friendlies wrong. 

 

I was reading it as I cast this on a nearby friendly unit and it now has a minus 1 to hit.  I think what others are clarifying for me is that I cast it on a friendly, any enemy has a minus 1 to hit said unit.  A nice thing to cast on  "XYZ" in a key position or before sending into the the fray.   I keep picturing Tzangoors in lipstick though...

[Prot]

100% honest, and take this with a grain of salt.... as a first reaction I feel like I’m going to be disappointed.

 

I saw no evidence of any of the bigger items I hoped for: Magnus working better with Thousand Sons. Improved Thousand Sons staples IE Rubrics and Scarabs ( Scarabs looked absolutely horrid in that game). An improved synergy with Psychic daemonic machines. And finally a few twists on existing units like a character Exalted.

 

I realize -some- of this may still be possible, but I saw zero evidence of it in that battle or conversation.

 

Second downer for me is the very obvious push of Tzaangors. I actually use them but I don’t want 50 of them to be playable. In fact I would go so far as to say from what we saw ( in that admittedly restricted showing) actually suggests to me they aim to replace the current role of Tzeentch Daemons, with AoS Tzaangors as opposed to helping the actual Legion units.

 

To put it another way, this would be comparable to Deathwatch (another elite army I got sucked into) getting a new codex that more or less improves the Deathwatch by adding Astra units to support them.

 

I realize this comes off as negative. I apologize but truthfully if I saw the opposite in that battle, I’d be singing the praises of our sneak peak.

 

I’m holding onto the idea that they held back a LOT.....including but not limited to a Psychic dread of some sort. (It has to happen, right?)

 

I feel like a schmuck posting this but that’s what I saw today. Here’s hoping it’s a very different picture by next Friday!

[Paladin777]

I absolutely get where you are coming from. I like being able to play LEGION Thousand Sons. I admit that Tzaangors are pretty cool, but it’s not my legion. I however, like the space wizards aspect of it the most so if that’s returned to a level where we can feel like the tricksy mages in SPAAAACCCCCEEEEEE and still be a viable force on the table I'm good.

 

To contrast, almost all the units death guard got were Astartes, or vehicles.

 

This may seem like a downer post, but I’m actually really excited to see what’s in the codex, if a bit apprehensive.

[hhhdan]

Guys, i'm pretty sure scarab occult and/or rubrics dropped in points. I added up the total for the existing units using the most up to date points (from index/csm codex/chapter approved). 

 

And Magnus, Ahriman, Daemon Prince with wings, Rubric marines, Scarab occult with all the upgrades he gave them, 30x tzaangors, quad las predator with combi melta is 1597 pts. The Tsons army in the stream was 1999 pts.

 

So that gives 402 pts for 9 Enlightened, Shaman and Mutalith.

Assuming shaman is same cost as tzeentch herald on disk (and probably more, as he most likely has some additional rules)

 

and the mutalith is worth as much as a maulerfiend (again, probably more, as it has the random aura ability thing on top of the similar stats, but more wounds and regen, similar combat with mortal wounds (they mentioned it very briefly))

 

It would give 151 pts for 9 tzaangor enlightened. This seems very inacurate, considering they are most likely as durable as screamers, if not 3 wounds each, but with ranged attack that seemed pretty decent. 16ppm seems way underpriced by these calculations. I would say they are at least as much as a screamer/flamer, so around 30ppm. Assuming the mutalith is also sligthly more expensive at 170-200 pts instead of maulerfiend's 152, this gives us at least 170-200 pts of cuts on the units.

 

Predator and daemon prince most definitely staying the same, I can't see them dropping Magnus and Ahriman in pts either, (ahriman is already really good for his points and Magnus wouldn't cost less than 400).

 

So 170-200 pts of cuts spread through tzaangors, rubrics and scarab occult? is that even plausible? 

[Khannis]

I absolutely get where you are coming from. I like being able to play LEGION Thousand Sons. I admit that Tzaangors are pretty cool, but it’s not my legion. I however, like the space wizards aspect of it the most so if that’s returned to a level where we can feel like the tricksy mages in SPAAAACCCCCEEEEEE and still be a viable force on the table I'm good.

 

To contrast, almost all the units death guard got were Astartes, or vehicles.

 

This may seem like a downer post, but I’m actually really excited to see what’s in the codex, if a bit apprehensive.

Completely agree.

[Skerr]

Fair points Prot and I remember the doldrums around here when the Chaos index dropped and we were like "Whaa?"  I agree that the Rubrics and SOTs did not have a significant showing, despite opened spell access and also agree with hhhdan that they will likely see a points drop.

 

Remember 1000 sons were taking on some pretty bad mo fo's in combat today and we all expected the new units to be showcased.  

 

I still cant help but be optimistic after what i saw today though.

[Zodd1888]

Interestingly, think of it as Custodes were the focus and allowed full showing and TS were not.

[Raven1]

Interestingly, think of it as Custodes were the focus and allowed full showing and TS were not.

And even pulled off a victory with that being the case. I do feel kinda bad for you guys that aren't excited about the new Tzaangor units, because I'm so excited about them, although I would have preferred them to stay MW machines. I'm just excited bout the expanded range of goats and real options.

[Thousand Sons Sorcerer]

100% honest, and take this with a grain of salt.... as a first reaction I feel like I’m going to be disappointed.

 

I saw no evidence of any of the bigger items I hoped for: Magnus working better with Thousand Sons. Improved Thousand Sons staples IE Rubrics and Scarabs ( Scarabs looked absolutely horrid in that game). An improved synergy with Psychic daemonic machines. And finally a few twists on existing units like a character Exalted.

 

I realize -some- of this may still be possible, but I saw zero evidence of it in that battle or conversation.

 

Second downer for me is the very obvious push of Tzaangors. I actually use them but I don’t want 50 of them to be playable. In fact I would go so far as to say from what we saw ( in that admittedly restricted showing) actually suggests to me they aim to replace the current role of Tzeentch Daemons, with AoS Tzaangors as opposed to helping the actual Legion units.

 

To put it another way, this would be comparable to Deathwatch (another elite army I got sucked into) getting a new codex that more or less improves the Deathwatch by adding Astra units to support them.

 

I realize this comes off as negative. I apologize but truthfully if I saw the opposite in that battle, I’d be singing the praises of our sneak peak.

 

I’m holding onto the idea that they held back a LOT.....including but not limited to a Psychic dread of some sort. (It has to happen, right?)

 

I feel like a schmuck posting this but that’s what I saw today. Here’s hoping it’s a very different picture by next Friday!

 

Don't feel bad I feel the same way most people that play 1k sons don't play it for the Tzaangors they play it for the Rubrics. I doubt they would sit on a Sorc Dread since TS players have been chomping at the bit for that since forever, and could announce that and it really wouldn't matter what else they put out, but then they might be worried it would overshadow everything else.

 

 

Guys, i'm pretty sure scarab occult and/or rubrics dropped in points. I added up the total for the existing units using the most up to date points (from index/csm codex/chapter approved). 

 

And Magnus, Ahriman, Daemon Prince with wings, Rubric marines, Scarab occult with all the upgrades he gave them, 30x tzaangors, quad las predator with combi melta is 1597 pts. The Tsons army in the stream was 1999 pts.

 

So that gives 402 pts for 9 Enlightened, Shaman and Mutalith.

Assuming shaman is same cost as tzeentch herald on disk (and probably more, as he most likely has some additional rules)

 

and the mutalith is worth as much as a maulerfiend (again, probably more, as it has the random aura ability thing on top of the similar stats, but more wounds and regen, similar combat with mortal wounds (they mentioned it very briefly))

 

It would give 151 pts for 9 tzaangor enlightened. This seems very inacurate, considering they are most likely as durable as screamers, if not 3 wounds each, but with ranged attack that seemed pretty decent. 16ppm seems way underpriced by these calculations. I would say they are at least as much as a screamer/flamer, so around 30ppm. Assuming the mutalith is also sligthly more expensive at 170-200 pts instead of maulerfiend's 152, this gives us at least 170-200 pts of cuts on the units.

 

Predator and daemon prince most definitely staying the same, I can't see them dropping Magnus and Ahriman in pts either, (ahriman is already really good for his points and Magnus wouldn't cost less than 400).

 

So 170-200 pts of cuts spread through tzaangors, rubrics and scarab occult? is that even plausible? 

 

if they dropped Tzaangors by 1 point that would account for 30, SOT could drop in points which...you know what with the removal of reroll 1s for invul saves im betting SOT Rubrics and Tzaangors each got a 1 point drop at least, due to the loss in durability, if Tzaangors got dropped by 2 points and SOT, and Rubrics had a 2 point drop each that would put the total around 80 points and would be consistent across the board for what would be the same durability loss.

 

The other possibility is that Skyfires are acutally only 1 wound and are 12 PPM or something, since Tzaangors are supposed to be a more horde element then an Elite unit like in AoS.

[BoomWolf]

Well, we got stomped by the wolves in our 7th showcase, so it's just karma.

Or tzeentch messing around. Probably tzeentch.

 

hhhdan, you assume no point changes to existing units in your rundown, that's a risky assumption.

 

Prot, quite possibly we just didn't SEE some stuff. Especially given that they outright stated they won't talk about anything unless it becomes important to that match.

Magnus not being a team player with his sons is practically a meme.

A character exalted is ahriman

You can't really draw conclusions on daemon engine synergy given the list didn't have any and as such even if they exist you wouldn't see them. (maybe there is a spell interaction of one of the unknown spells?)

Rubric and scarabs got vastly stronger by virtue of spell access. the fact they didn't shine THIS match means not they can't. You want nasty Scarabs? DS a full squad with special guns and pop VotLW, plus have them carry a self buff spell. That's a self contained deathstar. Extra credit with a tag along termi sorcerer putting further buffs.

Too many unknown factors to judge that the things we want are NOT a thing.

[hhhdan]

 

100% honest, and take this with a grain of salt.... as a first reaction I feel like I’m going to be disappointed.

 

I saw no evidence of any of the bigger items I hoped for: Magnus working better with Thousand Sons. Improved Thousand Sons staples IE Rubrics and Scarabs ( Scarabs looked absolutely horrid in that game). An improved synergy with Psychic daemonic machines. And finally a few twists on existing units like a character Exalted.

 

I realize -some- of this may still be possible, but I saw zero evidence of it in that battle or conversation.

 

Second downer for me is the very obvious push of Tzaangors. I actually use them but I don’t want 50 of them to be playable. In fact I would go so far as to say from what we saw ( in that admittedly restricted showing) actually suggests to me they aim to replace the current role of Tzeentch Daemons, with AoS Tzaangors as opposed to helping the actual Legion units.

 

To put it another way, this would be comparable to Deathwatch (another elite army I got sucked into) getting a new codex that more or less improves the Deathwatch by adding Astra units to support them.

 

I realize this comes off as negative. I apologize but truthfully if I saw the opposite in that battle, I’d be singing the praises of our sneak peak.

 

I’m holding onto the idea that they held back a LOT.....including but not limited to a Psychic dread of some sort. (It has to happen, right?)

 

I feel like a schmuck posting this but that’s what I saw today. Here’s hoping it’s a very different picture by next Friday!

 

Don't feel bad I feel the same way most people that play 1k sons don't play it for the Tzaangors they play it for the Rubrics. I doubt they would sit on a Sorc Dread since TS players have been chomping at the bit for that since forever, and could announce that and it really wouldn't matter what else they put out, but then they might be worried it would overshadow everything else.

 

 

Guys, i'm pretty sure scarab occult and/or rubrics dropped in points. I added up the total for the existing units using the most up to date points (from index/csm codex/chapter approved). 

 

And Magnus, Ahriman, Daemon Prince with wings, Rubric marines, Scarab occult with all the upgrades he gave them, 30x tzaangors, quad las predator with combi melta is 1597 pts. The Tsons army in the stream was 1999 pts.

 

So that gives 402 pts for 9 Enlightened, Shaman and Mutalith.

Assuming shaman is same cost as tzeentch herald on disk (and probably more, as he most likely has some additional rules)

 

and the mutalith is worth as much as a maulerfiend (again, probably more, as it has the random aura ability thing on top of the similar stats, but more wounds and regen, similar combat with mortal wounds (they mentioned it very briefly))

 

It would give 151 pts for 9 tzaangor enlightened. This seems very inacurate, considering they are most likely as durable as screamers, if not 3 wounds each, but with ranged attack that seemed pretty decent. 16ppm seems way underpriced by these calculations. I would say they are at least as much as a screamer/flamer, so around 30ppm. Assuming the mutalith is also sligthly more expensive at 170-200 pts instead of maulerfiend's 152, this gives us at least 170-200 pts of cuts on the units.

 

Predator and daemon prince most definitely staying the same, I can't see them dropping Magnus and Ahriman in pts either, (ahriman is already really good for his points and Magnus wouldn't cost less than 400).

 

So 170-200 pts of cuts spread through tzaangors, rubrics and scarab occult? is that even plausible? 

 

if they dropped Tzaangors by 1 point that would account for 30, SOT could drop in points which...you know what with the removal of reroll 1s for invul saves im betting SOT Rubrics and Tzaangors each got a 1 point drop at least, due to the loss in durability, if Tzaangors got dropped by 2 points and SOT, and Rubrics had a 2 point drop each that would put the total around 80 points and would be consistent across the board for what would be the same durability loss.

 

The other possibility is that Skyfires are acutally only 1 wound and are 12 PPM or something, since Tzaangors are supposed to be a more horde element then an Elite unit like in AoS.

 

 

i doubt they are 1 wound, as firstly they are supposed to be the elite tzaangor, but also the discs. A screamer is 2 wounds, i doubt that something riding a transformed screamer would be less wounds. 

 

I doubt that tzaangors would drop by 2 pts. They would be too good for 5 points. 6 pts seems appropriate for their stats and abilities. So i assume all the inferno weaponry will be included in the unit cost and the sorcerer for scarab occult wouldn't cost more than the rest of the squad, like rubrics in CSM codex. Also the heavy weapons for the SOT will probably cost slightly less, as now there is almost 0 point in the soulreaper cannon on them. That would give a pretty good drop in points already, about 80-90 pts total. So if the enlightened are around 20-25 ppm then it would line up.

[hhhdan]

Well, we got stomped by the wolves in our 7th showcase, so it's just karma.

Or tzeentch messing around. Probably tzeentch.

 

hhhdan, you assume no point changes to existing units in your rundown, that's a risky assumption.

 

Prot, quite possibly we just didn't SEE some stuff. Especially given that they outright stated they won't talk about anything unless it becomes important to that match.

Magnus not being a team player with his sons is practically a meme.

A character exalted is ahriman

You can't really draw conclusions on daemon engine synergy given the list didn't have any and as such even if they exist you wouldn't see them. (maybe there is a spell interaction of one of the unknown spells?)

Rubric and scarabs got vastly stronger by virtue of spell access. the fact they didn't shine THIS match means not they can't. You want nasty Scarabs? DS a full squad with special guns and pop VotLW, plus have them carry a self buff spell. That's a self contained deathstar. Extra credit with a tag along termi sorcerer putting further buffs.

Too many unknown factors to judge that the things we want are NOT a thing.

 

Daemon prince and predator won't be changed 100% or they would need to immediately faq a daemons codex/death guard codex/csm codex to bring them in line. And the daemon codex was only just released, if they wanted to change points, they would have done that. Also chapter approved didn't change predators either. 

 

I can't see Ahriman dropping in points as i said, he would be too good, he is already almost too good. Magnus could drop if they nerfed him, but i don't see him costing the same as rawboat guiltyman 

 

The rest are either new units or the ones i assume dropped in points

[hhhdan]

Well, we got stomped by the wolves in our 7th showcase, so it's just karma.

Or tzeentch messing around. Probably tzeentch.

 

hhhdan, you assume no point changes to existing units in your rundown, that's a risky assumption.

 

Prot, quite possibly we just didn't SEE some stuff. Especially given that they outright stated they won't talk about anything unless it becomes important to that match.

Magnus not being a team player with his sons is practically a meme.

A character exalted is ahriman

You can't really draw conclusions on daemon engine synergy given the list didn't have any and as such even if they exist you wouldn't see them. (maybe there is a spell interaction of one of the unknown spells?)

Rubric and scarabs got vastly stronger by virtue of spell access. the fact they didn't shine THIS match means not they can't. You want nasty Scarabs? DS a full squad with special guns and pop VotLW, plus have them carry a self buff spell. That's a self contained deathstar. Extra credit with a tag along termi sorcerer putting further buffs.

Too many unknown factors to judge that the things we want are NOT a thing.

 

Otherwise i do agree. I think we saw the bare minimum of the synergy that there is in the codex. They only used 2 new spells (glamour and doombolt) even though they had another one in the list (temporal manipulation). Also we saw only 1 new stratagem and they confirmed the cabalistic one from Chapter approved and veterans of the long war are in the book.

 

Beyond that we know virtually nothing about the interactions in the codex. The only aura that they used was the daemon prince one too. Magnus and Ahriman were never close to the rubric marines to even get to see their interaction. Ahriman only used prescience and smite the whole game and never went to combat.

[BoomWolf]

There was also a rubric squad and scarab squad packing some gear.

And the basic birds, even if they drop 1 point, it has am effect with the number the list had.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Well this is another nail in the 40k coffin for me. Might be time to just call it quits.

[hhhdan]

There was also a rubric squad and scarab squad packing some gear.

And the basic birds, even if they drop 1 point, it has am effect with the number the list had.

 

Those are the units that i said i think dropped in points (along with the gear, which i included in my original calculation).

 

Those are the only reasonable assumptions. Even if the enlightened are 20-25 pts per model, it still totals quite a bit over 2000

[hhhdan]

There was also a rubric squad and scarab squad packing some gear.

And the basic birds, even if they drop 1 point, it has am effect with the number the list had.

 

list had 30 tzaangors, so 30 pts drop would not cover the points disparity.

 

 

And that is assuming that mutalith is the same cost as the maulerfiend and it is objectively better from what we saw - more durable (2 more wounds), has invul and regen like maulerfiend, but also has the random aura.

 

And the shaman is the same as the tzerald, which i think he could be (99 pts seems ok), but if he gives a buff to tzaangor, then he might be more...

[BoomWolf]

Do we know the beast's armor though? It could be mere 4+ making a huge difference in value.

 

Also, might be lower T than the fiend.

And it seems to have far lower CC skills.

 

The beast might be just in the 120-150 range.

[Thousand Sons Sorcerer]

Well, we got stomped by the wolves in our 7th showcase, so it's just karma.

Or tzeentch messing around. Probably tzeentch.

 

 

Just as planned?

[Khalan]

Well this is another nail in the 40k coffin for me. Might be time to just call it quits.

If unconfirmed and incomplete from a book that isnt even out causes you to quit, then bye.

 

How about you wait 3 weeks before jumping off , and then if you decide to do so then you have our blessing.

[Prot]

I realize we’re going to have a range of emotions and reactions to this guys. Let’s try to keep it civil. You’re playing right into the Custodes hands!

 

I think some people may have missed the tone of my post. I’m certainly hopeful and duly acknowledged the that we didn’t see everything. In a nutshell, very little of what I saw in that game made me personally think ‘wow that’s something I was hoping for with my Thousand Sons ‘.

 

And I realize that it’s possible that everything exposed from this moment on could be right up my alley....I doubt it. But trust me, I don’t want to part with this army.