Thousand Sons preorder January.27

[Prot]

All is dust is great... I don't think our terminators are bad, I just find most aren't that great. Because they've been one of my favorite units in 40K, I mostly use them exclusively with my Deathguard because it's the best shot I have of making a dent with them.

 

Landraiders... usually mine is gone in T1. Sometimes I get T2. Of course I'm not using 2. I mean... that laser tank (forgeworld) a guy uses here does auto 6 damage per shot. Hard targets do not tend to last in my meta, but junk does... lots of junk. Orks do well here, Landraiders do not.

[Minsc]

The problem with the Landraider is...what is it supposed to do? Predators are better for shooting and Rhinos better for transporting for their cost. Also for transport duties it wants to be as close to the enemy as fast as possible while that works against its role as gun platform and vice versa. Not being able to Fly to fall back and keep shooting doesn't help its dual-role either.

 

The only thing the LR has going for it is durability and against the actual tank wrecking weapons it's not that much more durable.

 

 

This, pretty much.

I love my Land Raiders (got one for my TS, one for my WE and two for my Salamanders) but for the same pts-cost as a Land Raider you can get one Las-Predator and two Rhinos with additional combiweapons.

 

Land Raiders pay too much for their "survivability". A Lascannon doesn't really care if you're T7 3+ or T8 2+.

They either need a price reduction or a rule that allows them to move out of combat and still be able to shoot. Neither is likely to happen anytime in 8th.

 

 

[Prot]

This is why I'm saying it's a 'fun' project. I don't anticipate winning anything with it. At this point I have to work on special interest pieces because frankly goats don't interest me enough to keep going with Thousand Sons.

 

All I'm thinking here is that with -1 to hit, D3 wound repairs, Prescience, Psybolts, etc, etc.. (heck even that D3 wound strategem may come into play), that this may be the best reason for me to do a Thousand Sons landraider!

[Sonoftherubric21]

I intend on using one myself, to much the same effect. 

 

In a hilarious twist there was once a game where I had my land raider and for some odd reason the list had exactly 70 points left that I couldnt spend without having an awkwardly large amount left over. 

So I did the unimaginable; I stuck a unit of goats inside the dang land raider. when they came charging out my opponent was flabbergasted at it. rofl. 

[Zodd1888]

I not so secretly wish for a Silver Tower model that has a transport capacity of 20. No weapons, provides a +1 Invuln in a 3" bubble for TS units, all units are forced to disembark on arrival. It'd be so cool!

[Sonoftherubric21]

I not so secretly wish for a Silver Tower model that has a transport capacity of 20. No weapons, provides a +1 Invuln in a 3" bubble for TS units, all units are forced to disembark on arrival. It'd be so cool!

 

See this is one reason I cant wait for another 6 months to a year to pass.... GW said their main design philosophy for 8th was consistent expansion of every faction; In the future we will have something coming down the pipe. Popular faction = more units. Were a popular faction. 

 

The Osirion Dread in a future Forgeworld release looks and sounds like a sure bet once GW gets around to porting 30k into 40k useable stuff, as far as I recall one of their designer actually said something like that, after porting the Custode stuff from 30k to 40k they want to do that with lots of Legion units. 

 

Id imagine ours....or at least the Osirion given how many people BOMBARDED Gw's page with that "Psychic dreadnought" at this point its a sure thing in the future in one form or another. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I intend on using one myself, to much the same effect.

 

In a hilarious twist there was once a game where I had my land raider and for some odd reason the list had exactly 70 points left that I couldnt spend without having an awkwardly large amount left over.

 

So I did the unimaginable; I stuck a unit of goats inside the dang land raider. when they came charging out my opponent was flabbergasted at it. rofl.

No lie....I already have a list with 20 goats in my Storm Eagle. ;)

[Khannis]

Now that we know most if not all the changes in the Codex, I just can't think of this Codex as remotely good and/or capable of turning us into a moderately strong army in the current meta (far from me wanting to beat the Holy Trinity of (A)elves, Dead (A)elves or Astra Militarum).

It seems that ludicrously, we got shafted in many, many ways. Our survivability has been seriously hurt (no more re-roll saves aura, and the Magnus nerfs), the beta rules has hampered one of our very few strengths (many smites), and there's not been a significant price drop on Rubrics to offset this or address our command point problem. To add insult to injury, GW just took real steps toward making an elite army viable and fluffy, the Adeptus Custodes. It's too soon to tell if they'll make a real dent in the meta (lookin' at ya, Reaper Spam), but that was a real effort, new rules, new kits, the works, all supporting the theme of hitting hard, fast, tying up multiple units and enduring the returning punishment.

Sure, we got some things. +6'' Cast Range can be VERY powerful, but our mind bullets just can't match the raw firepower and/or survivability (in numbers or durability) of other armies. Doombolt looks powerful on paper, but WC 9!? How realistic is to strategize on top of that? Most of our stratagems are utter crap compared to other Codices. Flesh Change? Fated Mutation? Soul Flare? Coruscating Beam? All horribly inefficient. No Cult Rules, no focus whatsoever on the actual Thousand Sons, that if anything, have gotten worse with the beta rules and the loss of a very useful aura.

At least we got decent fantasy beastmen, so we can play Magnus and the Goats. Hooray.

Sorry for the rant, but compared to GW's recent efforts in the latest Codices, this is borderline offensive.

[Arachnofiend]

I think we'll probably be in the same position as every other Chaos faction - just a single piece in the Frankenstein's Monster of Chaos Soup. I expect to see Supreme Commands with Ahriman and two Daemon Princes of Tzeentch, or Outriders filled with Enlightened on top tables but never Thousand Sons as a full army.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Now that we know most if not all the changes in the Codex, I just can't think of this Codex as remotely good and/or capable of turning us into a moderately strong army in the current meta (far from me wanting to beat the Holy Trinity of (A)elves, Dead (A)elves or Astra Militarum).

 

It seems that ludicrously, we got shafted in many, many ways. Our survivability has been seriously hurt (no more re-roll saves aura, and the Magnus nerfs), the beta rules has hampered one of our very few strengths (many smites), and there's not been a significant price drop on Rubrics to offset this or address our command point problem. To add insult to injury, GW just took real steps toward making an elite army viable and fluffy, the Adeptus Custodes. It's too soon to tell if they'll make a real dent in the meta (lookin' at ya, Reaper Spam), but that was a real effort, new rules, new kits, the works, all supporting the theme of hitting hard, fast, tying up multiple units and enduring the returning punishment.

 

Sure, we got some things. +6'' Cast Range can be VERY powerful, but our mind bullets just can't match the raw firepower and/or survivability (in numbers or durability) of other armies. Doombolt looks powerful on paper, but WC 9!? How realistic is to strategize on top of that? Most of our stratagems are utter crap compared to other Codices. Flesh Change? Fated Mutation? Soul Flare? Coruscating Beam? All horribly inefficient. No Cult Rules, no focus whatsoever on the actual Thousand Sons, that if anything, have gotten worse with the beta rules and the loss of a very useful aura.

 

At least we got decent fantasy beastmen, so we can play Magnus and the Goats. Hooray.

 

Sorry for the rant, but compared to GW's recent efforts in the latest Codices, this is borderline offensive.

 

Ill be among those who respectfully disagree, I share some of your complaints but there is not way to look at what we gained and somehow say we "lost" something. I agree there are some missed opportunities, cults chief among them followed by rubrics not having a unique stratagem which feels almost like a "mean" omission, if enough of the community pelts GW's email with complaints this will be fixed in the future. 

 

I know I have regarding a couple things; The ten man rubric units i took frequently so the "10 man soul reaper" thing is not *AS* big a deal for me, but it ham strings our ability to cater to very competitive metas which all but require MSU to work. 

 

For anyone interested in actually making an impact on GW; they have already stated that they received so many messages regarding a "psyker dreadnought" they said "We are well aware the community wants one" and I think thats a way of saying we will get one eventually. 

 

Id say enough emails regarding issues will have some fixes coming in FAQ's. Among other issues. I messaged them myself.  I posted the email below for those who are interested. Hearing from a good chunk of the community may expedite the process. 

 

40kfaq@gwplc.com

[Archaeinox]

^ agree. Now we just need folks to send reasonable emails

[Ahzek451]

And thats just it. Reasonable. I have sent one myself, nothing angry or spiteful. I told them i appreciated just having a book at all. But i did chime in on a few things as mentioned above. One thing, while everyone is excited about the new and shiny, i dont think a lot of understand yet how unreliable it is to cast a lot of these powers vs. what we get from them. Most casting values are 7 and above. Sure you can ofset this with magnus and a strategem but i feel you should not have to. In reality, a host of psykers without ahriman and magnus(exalts, aspiring and scarab sorceror and shamen) will only see these powers go off roughly 50% of the time. And like khannis said, forget about doombolt unless you plan to slap it on magnus. Its like a tease....sure gw gave us lots of powers to pick from but really only certain powers fit better on certain models.

 

I take part of that back. The shamen has an easier time once per battle than an exalt does haha.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I plan on having lots of +1 casting models on the table so hopefully I can balance that out a bit, cabal ritual, and gaze of fate / command re-rolls. 

[Prot]

I’ve gone through this in so many areas of the forum.... there are so many common elements. You have to realize that even with this promise of balance in 8th from GW the harsh reality is there are a few truly competitive armies, and that’s the current truth.

 

Most of the Frater have the exact same complaint in other areas of the BnC.

 

I’m not defending the codex. I wanted more than this as well, and I don’t think it was unreasonable to deliver it. But the members here suggesting you need to take it up wit GW are absolutely right. I have been also bugging them on Facebook as well as email.

 

All of this said I do think we gotta get some games under our belts and see what’s what!

[Archaeinox]

I sent an email detailing some things that I thought might need some adjustments. I made a point to mention that my Codex information comes from their authorized live streams/youtube videos of Codex: Thousand Sons reviews *and* the Warhammer Community site. I tried to act like I'm a History grad student for once and actually write some meaningful arguments without making it too long of an email.

 

-Soul Reaper Cannon

-High Warp Charge cost for powers such as Doombolt or Tzeentch's Firestorm

-Inferno Bolts stratagem (1 CP for a vehicle before game might be more appropriate because otherwise it will never be used if it is per weapon)

-Rubrics/Scarab Occult units losing Psyker keyword if sorcerer sergeant dies (also, does he even take the Perils? need clarification)

 

I couldn't think of anything else but one thing is for sure- I didn't mention anything new that I wanted like the psychic dreadnoughts. I was afraid that the email would be immediately discarded so I primarily focused on asking about adjustments and clarifications.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I sent an email detailing some things that I thought might need some adjustments. I made a point to mention that my Codex information comes from their authorized live streams/youtube videos of Codex: Thousand Sons reviews *and* the Warhammer Community site. I tried to act like I'm a History grad student for once and actually write some meaningful arguments without making it too long of an email.

 

-Soul Reaper Cannon

-High Warp Charge cost for powers such as Doombolt or Tzeentch's Firestorm

-Inferno Bolts stratagem (1 CP for a vehicle before game might be more appropriate because otherwise it will never be used if it is per weapon)

-Rubrics/Scarab Occult units losing Psyker keyword if sorcerer sergeant dies (also, does he even take the Perils? need clarification)

 

I couldn't think of anything else but one thing is for sure- I didn't mention anything new that I wanted like the psychic dreadnoughts. I was afraid that the email would be immediately discarded so I primarily focused on asking about adjustments and clarifications.

How about addition of Inferno Combi-Bolter to combi-weapons list if it's not already there? Would fix Term Sorcerer and vehicle issues at same time.

 

Force Ax/Sword options for Aspiring Sorcerers and Exalted Sorcerers would be good to mention too.

[Khalan]

I think we also need to understand, that this isn't the end. by Summer we will have all the books out. Do you think they won't be releasing new models/rules/re-releasing codex's in 6-12months time? Campaigns will add units to a lot of armies. I doubt we are getting a ton of new factions so I would assume we will get more love eventually. I think the initial plan is to get them all out, then revisit and fill holes.

[Minsc]

So, to summarize or psykers:

 

Ahriman can manifest 3 and deny 3 powers per phase.
He knows Smite and 3 powers from the Discipline of Change and/or Dark Hereticus.

+1 to manifest and deny.

A Daemon Prince of Tzeentch can manifest 2 and deny 1 power per phase.
He knows Smite and 2 powers from the Discipline of Change, Dark Hereticus and/or Discipline of Tzeentch.

 

An Exalted Sorcerer can manifest 2 and deny 1 power per phase.
He knows Smite and 2 powers from the Discipline of Change and/or Dark Hereticus.

 

A Sorcerer can manifest 2 and deny 1 power per phase.

He knows Smite and 2 powers from the Discipline of Change and/or Dark Hereticus.

A Sorcerer in Terminator can manifest 2 and deny 1 power per phase.

He knows Smite and 2 powers from the Discipline of Change and/or Dark Hereticus. 

+1 to manifest on the first psychic test in every psychic phase.

A Tzaangor Shaman can manifest 1 power and deny 1 power per phase.
He knows Smite and 1 power from the Discipline of Change.
Can reroll his first failed psychic test, one use only.

 

An Aspiring Sorcerer can manifest 1 power and deny 1 power per phase.
He knows a nerfed Smite and 1 power from the Discipline of Change.

A Scarab Occult Sorcerer can manifest 1 power and deny 1 power per phase.
He knows a nerfed Smite and 1 power from the Discipline of Change.

 

Magnus the Red can manifest 3 and deny 3 powers per phase.
He knows a super Smite, and 3 powers from the Discipline of Change, Dark Hereticus and/or Discipline of Tzeentch.
Up to +2 to manifest and deny depending on remaining wounds, and has a 9" aura that allows 1's to be rerolled in psychic tests.
 

And lastly we have a some Warlord Trait which affect Psykers in some way:
1) Warlord gets to re-roll Deny the Witch.
2) Warlord knows one additional psychic power. 

3) Warlord adds +1 to psychic tests made.

 

(+1 is really nice on a Sorcerer in TA for a total of +2 on a crucial power.)

 

Did I miss anything?

[Arachnofiend]

I sent in an email as well. Largely the same stuff as Archaeinox, though with a proposal of my own to help ease the hurt of Rubrics not getting their own powerhouse stratagem: change Veterans of the Long War so it excludes cultists, tzaangors, and poxwalkers from its use. Since we can't reasonably expect them to add a brand new stratagem for Rubrics in an FAQ, this effectively makes VotLW the Cool Thing that Rubrics/SOT's will be able to do since nobody else in our codex would be able to benefit from it.

[Khalan]

Why would you do that? That is the worst suggestion I have ever heard lol. Let's nerf the army to make Rubrics better?

[Panzer]

lol likewise. Internal balance is nice and everything but so far people aren't even sure whether TSons are competetive at all so why not think about something to make Rubrics better instead of nerfing non-Rubric things in the Codex. That's exactly the kind of 'fixing' people hate.

[Arachnofiend]

Why would you do that? That is the worst suggestion I have ever heard lol. Let's nerf the army to make Rubrics better?

I'd rather tzaangors be a little worse than rubrics not have anything at all. If you think they're going to add a Rubric stratagem in the FAQ you're deluding yourself.

[Panzer]

 

Why would you do that? That is the worst suggestion I have ever heard lol. Let's nerf the army to make Rubrics better?

I'd rather tzaangors be a little worse than rubrics not have anything at all. If you think they're going to add a Rubric stratagem in the FAQ you're deluding yourself.

 

No offense, but not more than you're deluding yourself as well.

[HeresyBeliever]

I sent them this question:

 

 - The power 'Boom of Mutation' says 'not a daemon character' but does this mean an Exalted Sorcerer on disc can't have Boon of Mutation cast on them, as they gain the daemon keyword from the disc? 

 

I think they aimed this at Magnus and DP's. 

[Panzer]

Well the answer to that would be a definite "Yes, they can't benefit from that power". Whether they're going to change that...I think that's rather unlikely. They'll probably just say something along the lines of "since they already got a disc granted by Tzeentch he refuses to give them anything more" or similar. ^^