Cultists or Bloodletters?

[techsoldaten]

Looking for opinions. Is it better to bring Cultists or Daemon detachments with Bloodletters?

 

I've been using max sized units of each in games to great effect. Because they both rely on Stratagems, you can't really use them together effectively. I'm starting to wonder what downsides I'm not seeing.

 

The Cultists are great strategically, Tide of Traitors lets them walk onto an objective in the 4th or 5th turn at full strength and opponents can't do much about it. Just standing around has won me a lot of games.

 

The Bloodletters are great offensively, Denziens of the Warp allows them to reliably clear out any area on the board. They do well against every type of opponent, with 60 AP -3 attacks on the charge.

 

Obviously, morale has a significant affect on each unit and neither one has a really great save. If you had to make a choice, which would you pick?

[ChazSexington]

Tide of Traitors I don't think particularly good - you're already whamming 3 CPs on VotLW and Endless Cacophony, and possibly another 2 CPs to autopass morale. It's very circumstantial.

 

Bloodletters (with Loci and Deep Strike) are much better against TEQs/Custard Toadies than Cultists. If you have a Chaos Lord and Sorcerer, your Cultists should be have 160 shots, hitting on 3+ (re-rolling 1s), and S3 (+1 to wound). However, the lack of AP means Bloodletters outdo them against heavier-armoured infantry. While both are sub-optimal against vehicles, Bloodletters can at least tie them up properly in CC. 

[Trevak Dal]

Can you use a chaos sorcerer's warp time on bloodletters? If so that would be a great move to get them to fighting after the drop.

[masterstrider]

Can you use a chaos sorcerer's warp time on bloodletters? If so that would be a great move to get them to fighting after the drop.

Nope. Heretic Astartes only.

 

The answer is: it depends. 

 

Cultists:

Cost 2CP to teleport, need Warptime to move closer to the enemy, shooting twice means another 2CP if Slaanesh marked, VotLW is another 1CP, need morale immunity or another 2CP to keep them from running, can spend 3CP to pile in and fight again if Khorne marked.

 

Bloodletters:

Cost 2CP to teleport, need 1CP for banner of blood, need 2CP for +1 to invulnerable saves, need 2CP to keep them from running, need 20+ in a unit to gain +1 to hit.

 

Horrors:

Costs 2CP to teleport, need 2CP for +1 to invulnerable saves, need 2CP to keep them from running, need herald nearby to gain S4 shots and provide +1 to wound with Flickering Flames, need 30+ in a unit to gain Assault 3, Pink Horrors can split into Blues and Brimstones, which cost points, but allow for an exploding unit that keeps growing and lapping around the enemy, giving lots of board control and limiting the space the enemy has to run away from you. 

 

Conclusion:

All three options can be effective with as little as 2CP and can go up to 5-6CP in one turn. All do the same thing: distract the enemy so that they don't kill your good stuff. With enough CP they can kill things too. The question is, do you want to use them as a distraction or a kill unit?

 

It might be better to spend the CP on better units like Obliterators or Berzerkers as they are much more effective in their respective roles. Granted, Cultists/Horrors can put out an ungodly amount of attacks, but they are weak and need lots of CP investment to buff their effectiveness. If you require the CP, then build a list around them and take lots of battalions. If you want to run more elite units, use the horde units as a distraction to tie up tanks, take out deep strike denial units, or tie up access to the board until your good units engage and keep the CP investment.

Edited March 1, 2018 by masterstrider

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Can't you use both?  Like a horde pincer.  Cultist blob on the left, bloodletter bomb on the right.  

[masterstrider]

Can't you use both?  Like a horde pincer.  Cultist blob on the left, bloodletter bomb on the right.  

 

Morale is really hard to manage. The enemy will open up on both units and because their saves are terrible, will kill 10-20 in each unit, and you can only save one with auto-pass morale stratagem. Plus, it costs a lot of CP to make them effective, see my post on CP costs above.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

What about Plaguebearers? Those guys can be a PAIN to clear out.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

What about Plaguebearers? Those guys can be a PAIN to clear out.

 Yeah... patrol detachment with 30 plaguebears and a GUO.  That would be hilariously difficult to get rid of.  

[CrystalSeer]

I run both, and would say if you can only do one, to go with bloodletters. Attrition is less of a concern when you can just kill all the opponents infantry. 20 can deep strike and get a 3d6 charge for just 2CP. This will kill any infantry unit that isn't a dedicated cc tank.

[techsoldaten]

 

Can you use a chaos sorcerer's warp time on bloodletters? If so that would be a great move to get them to fighting after the drop.

Nope. Heretic Astartes only.

 

The answer is: it depends. 

 

Cultists:

Cost 2CP to teleport, need Warptime to move closer to the enemy, shooting twice means another 2CP if Slaanesh marked, VotLW is another 1CP, need morale immunity or another 2CP to keep them from running, can spend 3CP to pile in and fight again if Khorne marked.

 

Bloodletters:

Cost 2CP to teleport, need 1CP for banner of blood, need 2CP for +1 to invulnerable saves, need 2CP to keep them from running, need 20+ in a unit to gain +1 to hit.

 

Horrors:

Costs 2CP to teleport, need 2CP for +1 to invulnerable saves, need 2CP to keep them from running, need herald nearby to gain S4 shots and provide +1 to wound with Flickering Flames, need 30+ in a unit to gain Assault 3, Pink Horrors can split into Blues and Brimstones, which cost points, but allow for an exploding unit that keeps growing and lapping around the enemy, giving lots of board control and limiting the space the enemy has to run away from you. 

 

Conclusion:

All three options can be effective with as little as 2CP and can go up to 5-6CP in one turn. All do the same thing: distract the enemy so that they don't kill your good stuff. With enough CP they can kill things too. The question is, do you want to use them as a distraction or a kill unit?

 

It might be better to spend the CP on better units like Obliterators or Berzerkers as they are much more effective in their respective roles. Granted, Cultists/Horrors can put out an ungodly amount of attacks, but they are weak and need lots of CP investment to buff their effectiveness. If you require the CP, then build a list around them and take lots of battalions. If you want to run more elite units, use the horde units as a distraction to tie up tanks, take out deep strike denial units, or tie up access to the board until your good units engage and keep the CP investment.

 

 

Thank you everyone for all the feedback.

 

This post gets right into it, the CP burn is what makes it hard to choose.

 

Tide of Traitors on a max sized Cultist unit doesn't always mean you need Endless Cacophony or VotLW, and Denizens of the Warp on a max sized Bloodletter unit puts them in good position for a charge with an instrument as long as you have a Loci for rerolls to charge (Skullmasters are good for this.) So you don't always need to go beyond the basics for these units to be effective.

 

But it's hard to use these 2CP stratagems on everything. I usually go into games with 11 command points (6 for 2 Battalions + 2 for Abaddon + 3 for being battle forged) and even that creates problems. Which means you have to choose, Bloodletters and Cultists don't seem worth it otherwise.

 

FWIW, I started using Bloodletters with DotW after getting frustrated with summoning rules. Summoning would represent a 'free' way to do the same, maybe let me bring cultists and Bloodletters in the same army. But it's really hard to get a summoning roll for a max sized unit.

[norngahl]

How much points do you play for 11 Command points?! I usually have 6 at 2k (okay, Regus to play special chars) but at this points you are better offen with a brigade anyway. Not that I think CSM should go mass army style..

 

To be honest.. Cultists with Abby or with IW legion trait and Tide of Traitors work wonders. 80 Models to kill off is hard to manage for a lot of armoes, especially when you consider it's just 160 points ;)

[techsoldaten]

How much points do you play for 11 Command points?! I usually have 6 at 2k (okay, Regus to play special chars) but at this points you are better offen with a brigade anyway. Not that I think CSM should go mass army style..

 

To be honest.. Cultists with Abby or with IW legion trait and Tide of Traitors work wonders. 80 Models to kill off is hard to manage for a lot of armoes, especially when you consider it's just 160 points

 

Usually 2k points. Abaddon for +2, 2 Battalions for +6, and +3 for playing.

 

I've done 120 cultists before, and yes, it can be hard for opposing armies. It's just not fun to play.

[masterstrider]

I think where some CSM players go wrong is they don't play conservatively enough and end up with no CP towards the mid-late game and then their assaults peter out, giving their opponent the advantage.

 

By conservatively, I mean, you should aim to use CP sparingly, and try to push the units to do the most work with the least investment.

 

E.g.1: you take a 40-man blob of Cultist, spend 2+1+2CP to use ToT, VotLW an EC, in one turn, and blow away maybe 3 screens or 15-20 marines. But that cost you probably half your CP. What was the outcome? You circumvented the enemy's ability to attack back with cheap screens i.e. fodder, at a very expensive CP cost. Now they get shot to death and you've lost your screens, so no net gain. Tit-for-tat.

 

But this outcome can be done in other ways, still give you better positioning and save you CP.

 

E.g.2: you use Warptime to double move the Cultists. Don't just attack the screens, spread out and fill up the board. A big unit of 40 can take up at least 50% of the board, giving you massive deep strike denial zones. Now you can shoot and charge those 2/3 screens. However, if you only declare a charge against 2/3, you can then pile into the 3rd. The 1st and 2nd die in the first wave, and then by engaging the 3rd and lapping around (just one model is enough) so they cannot fall back, you also cannot be shot an circumvented the entire squad. Screens have been managed and you still have all your CP. Maybe you spent 1 to reroll your charge.

 

Now the enemy is forced to attack your cultists in melee (since they are still engaged with a unit that cannot fall back) to regain board control, cannot use deep strike support because you've swarmed the board, and basically wastes their turn trying to clear the mess you've left them. Next to no CP investment.

 

CPs are not a replacement for bad tactics.

Edited March 2, 2018 by masterstrider

[Panzer]

I'd like to disagree. I've seen too many games lost with CP still left to use. Sure there are some situations where it's good to hold some back but it's generally better to, burn through your CP turn 1-3 to make the most impact. Usually games are decided by then anyway and especially on tournaments many games don't see a fourth turn.

[ChazSexington]

I think where some CSM players go wrong is they don't play conservatively enough and end up with no CP towards the mid-late game and then their assaults peter out, giving their opponent the advantage.

 

By conservatively, I mean, you should aim to use CP sparingly, and try to push the units to do the most work with the least investment.

 

E.g.1: you take a 40-man blob of Cultist, spend 2+1+2CP to use ToT, VotLW an EC, in one turn, and blow away maybe 3 screens or 15-20 marines. But that cost you probably half your CP. What was the outcome? You circumvented the enemy's ability to attack back with cheap screens i.e. fodder, at a very expensive CP cost. Now they get shot to death and you've lost your screens, so no net gain. Tit-for-tat.

 

But this outcome can be done in other ways, still give you better positioning and save you CP.

 

E.g.2: you use Warptime to double move the Cultists. Don't just attack the screens, spread out and fill up the board. A big unit of 40 can take up at least 50% of the board, giving you massive deep strike denial zones. Now you can shoot and charge those 2/3 screens. However, if you only declare a charge against 2/3, you can then pile into the 3rd. The 1st and 2nd die in the first wave, and then by engaging the 3rd and lapping around (just one model is enough) so they cannot fall back, you also cannot be shot an circumvented the entire squad. Screens have been managed and you still have all your CP. Maybe you spent 1 to reroll your charge.

 

Now the enemy is forced to attack your cultists in melee (since they are still engaged with a unit that cannot fall back) to regain board control, cannot use deep strike support because you've swarmed the board, and basically wastes their turn trying to clear the mess you've left them. Next to no CP investment.

 

CPs are not a replacement for bad tactics.

 

 

I'd like to disagree. I've seen too many games lost with CP still left to use. Sure there are some situations where it's good to hold some back but it's generally better to, burn through your CP turn 1-3 to make the most impact. Usually games are decided by then anyway and especially on tournaments many games don't see a fourth turn.

 

I think it's a mix - we don't have the IG's ability to spam them, nor do we have their ability to regain them. Watching three IG Brigades with Kurov's Aquila is ridiculous. 

 

I think using Infiltrate, VotLW, and Endless Cacophony is the correct way of doing it. I think if we use ToT and another 2 on autopassing morale it's too much. I prefer having a few free for re-rolls, Killshot, and other opportune stratagems down the line. I have been known to blast 10 CPs in my first 2 turns, don't get me wrong, but that hamstrings me for the rest of the game.

Edited March 2, 2018 by ChazSexington

[battle captain corpus]

I've been looking at these two units myself. I've a small unit of Cultists already and a unit of 20 Pink Horrors that I summon. Whilst I'm going to add to the Cultists over time I'm tempted by 20 Bloodletters also.

 

The Pink Horrors are ok but as with all summoned Daemon units they take a bit of getting used to to use. BloodLetters aren't subtle though and the weight of attacks is simply delicious!

 

BCC