Speculation & spoilers regarding The Magos, Pariah etc

[b1soul]

Yellow King as

 

Constantine Valdor struck me as pretty far-fetched...but look where we are today. Though if anyone could pull a (disappointing) double-twist, it's Abnett

[DukeLeto69]

Finished this last night. Still ruminating over what it all means and the possible implications.

 

A fantastic book but so crammed full of ideas that at times I felt a bit like drowning. Penitent definitely requires a re-read (for me). I am normally a relatively slow reader but I whistled through this. Perhaps too fast (for me). Penitent feels like it should be savoured like a fine wine but I was downing pints on a pub crawl because I wanted to get to the big lore thang reveal(s).

 

I need time to post thoughts on what it contains (in spoilers) but wow, just wow.

 

So glad I resisted reading the spoilers (first time ever I think).

[DukeLeto69]

Ok here goes...

 

 

I wasn’t sold on the Valdor theory but some fraters called it in this thread so I doff my hat to you. Nice work!

 

It makes sense and, as others have said, some breadcrumbs have been laid over the intervening years since Pariah by other authors.

 

Makes me believe that the author High Lords (those who are part of the Siege of Terra team) have been aware of Abnett’s plans all this time. Certainly other BL writers were NOT aware as evidenced by Mike Brooks twitter response (no spoilers but he was clearly shocked). May have to go back and read Valdor by Wraight again to see if any clues (doubt it as focused story).

 

I think we need to bare in mind that Penitent is Act 2/middle book of the trilogy so Pandaemonium may yet throw some curve balls, though I REALLY hope Abnett doesn’t bait n switch ID of TYK now as would feel a step too far (please no “I am Alpharius” moment PLEASE!)

 

Gotta say I was more blown away by the chance TYK could have been a missing Primarch! THAT seems bigger to me somehow then Valdor! Not re-read this thread but I do not think anyone put forward the idea of a missing Primarch? I hope that wasn’t simply a red herring - if so then cheeky! (Edit - not saying I want TYK to actually be a missing Primarch, that needs IMO to now stay Valdor, but I would like to see the missing Primarch(s) play some part)

 

It is hard for me to fully process whether I like what I think I now know, ie Valdor. I was pretty invested in the idea that TYK was in fact the God Emperor with the reveal being he is alive and active in the immaterium fighting the eternal war as seen in ADBs Master of Mankind. I really WANTED that to be the case.

 

However, I can take some solace from the fact that there has clearly been an “eternal war” being fought all this time behind the veil, only (perhaps) being commanded by Valdor. Indeed Calistar and Thaumeizin feel analogous if not the same.

 

I still hold out the (vain) hope that the God Emperor is commanding or influencing Valdor - the power behind the power (with THAT being the big reveal in Pandaemonium).

 

However, perhaps what is more likely is that Valdor is indeed wanting to “kill” the big E so he can resurrect (I do not for one moment believe Valdor is attempting a coup or is anything other than loyal to the Emp). Knowing Abnett there is some Star Child type thing amongst all this...

 

...Which leads me to the Perpetuals. Surely they will make an appearance? Abnett has certainly been building a meta narrative and I cannot see how they won’t play some part?

 

Someone earlier put forward the idea of raiding Nurgle’s Garden and freeing an Aeldari God to help resurrect TGE. Interesting. I know relatively little of the pointy ear lore so cannot comment but sounds intriguing.

 

In terms of the book itself one thing does irk me a bit.

 

Bequin seems remarkably well informed about many things. I put that down to her Cognitae training but...

 

Turns out the mathematician/astronomer chap and his friends also know all about the Heresy War / War of the Primarchs and the “Nine who fell and the Nine who stood” stuff. That simply does not square with other BL authors take on things (including knowledge of the missing Primarchs)

 

For example, Chris Wraight’s Vault of Terra books have the protagonist, an inquisitor no less, confused by there being statues of more than nine Primarchs in a room he discovers.

 

As for how this will tie in to the Dark Imperium / Cicatrix Mali(somethingorother) well:

 

1. I really REALLY hope we do not get some time shift effect in exitant space bringing Bequin et al 500-600 years forward in the timeline. I would REALLY hate that.

 

2. The City of Dust / Palace of Thaumeizin appears to be in proximity to the Eye of Terror. I wonder whether the actions of Bequin et al might actually work against Valdor and as a consequence set in motion events that finally enable Abaddon and 13th Black Crusade to break fully free, create great rift and all that The Gathering Storm stuff? What if Bequin and pals get it wrong and the Dark Millennium is partly caused by them in the end?

 

Whacky but therein lies the challenge with a “historical” set story that has huge lore impacts when we already know the outcome of other lore things 5-6 centuries later!

 

Sure I will ramble more about this book etc in days/weeks to come but for now that’ll do.

 

Feeling quite sad the wait is over! Let’s hope book 3 doesn’t take 8yrs!

 

P.S. Did ya’ll spot the easter egg / set up for a The Scouring series?

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by DukeLeto69

[b1soul]

2030...here we come!

[DukeLeto69]

2030...here we come!

Don’t say THAT!!!!!!

 

Abnett is currently writing Interceptor City (the other book we never thought we would see). He has to write final Siege book but I reckon his schedule (as if I have any insight) could fit in Pandaemonium next before Siege book?

[Fire Golem]

I did also get the sense that Bequin knows too much. It does make sense to me, the Cognitae have been around since before the Heresy, and they don’t have the same reason to hide the traitor Primarchs as the Imperium does, but it was a little bit jarring compared to most 40k writing.

[DukeLeto69]

I did also get the sense that Bequin knows too much. It does make sense to me, the Cognitae have been around since before the Heresy, and they don’t have the same reason to hide the traitor Primarchs as the Imperium does, but it was a little bit jarring compared to most 40k writing.

Bequin’s knowledge can be explained by Cognitae training.

 

Doesn’t explain the astronomer and his pals or indeed Patience Kys?

[caladancid]

Yellow King as

 

Constantine Valdor struck me as pretty far-fetched...but look where we are today. Though if anyone could pull a (disappointing) double-twist, it's Abnett

 

So salty.  If you are disappointed by the novel, I am not sure what gets you going in 40k.

[Lucerne]

 

I did also get the sense that Bequin knows too much. It does make sense to me, the Cognitae have been around since before the Heresy, and they don’t have the same reason to hide the traitor Primarchs as the Imperium does, but it was a little bit jarring compared to most 40k writing.

Bequin’s knowledge can be explained by Cognitae training.

 

Doesn’t explain the astronomer and his pals or indeed Patience Kys?

 

Forbidden Lore (Horus Heresy) for the Inquisition training for the latter.

[RedDragon]

I'm not sure how to do spoiler tags, so apologies in advance - Although it's nothing groundbreaking:

 

Does anyone else think that Mam Matichek is Lilean Chase?

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

 

I did also get the sense that Bequin knows too much. It does make sense to me, the Cognitae have been around since before the Heresy, and they don’t have the same reason to hide the traitor Primarchs as the Imperium does, but it was a little bit jarring compared to most 40k writing.

Bequin’s knowledge can be explained by Cognitae training.

 

Doesn’t explain the astronomer and his pals or indeed Patience Kys?

Forbidden Lore (Horus Heresy) for the Inquisition training for the latter.

Well yes I would say so too except this means (as I say earlier in thread) that:

 

Why doesn’t Inquisitor Erasmus Crowl in Wraight’s Vaults of Terra books know there were more than nine primarchs? He enters a room to see statues of the others and doesn’t understand!

 

Obviously inconsistency between authors and the whole loose cannon thing BUT for me this matters.

 

There should be a rule about who would know what in-universe.

 

I'm not sure how to do spoiler tags, so apologies in advance - Although it's nothing groundbreaking:

 

Does anyone else think that Mam Matichek is Lilean Chase?

You type:

 

[

Spoiler

]

 

Then

 

[

/

Spoiler

]

 

But all in a single line

 

Yes very possible. In Pariah we hear mention of the Silver Countess too and I assumed that was Chase. However, maybe that us all too obvious?

Edited March 12, 2021 by DukeLeto69

[DarkChaplain]

One thing to keep in mind is that Sancour and Queen Mab in particular are extremely out of whack with Imperial culture to begin with.

 

In many places, Bequin notes that it's more arcane, more occultly-inclined, than the norm, or that many things from history seem to mesh there.

In fact, she goes as far as to claim that Sancour attracts that sort of confluence, possibly due to the Yellow King's presence.

 

It doesn't seem strange that people on a world like this - where nothing is as it seems and forbidden knowledge seems en vouge like nowhere else, ancient terran languages still shape location descriptors etc, a 10+ millennia old secret order is at work behind the scenes along with a major galactic player implied to be 10k years old, who is gathering resources to himself to unravel the language of creation - are strangely well-informed compared to the normal populace on other worlds, even Terra. If anything, I'd expect Terra itself to be extra tight-lipped outside of the highest echelons, attempting to maintain peace through ignorance.

 

I just pray to the high heavens that we won't see any of Dan's Perpetuals in Pandaemonium. This isn't their story, and they've long overstayed their welcome in the Heresy.

[apologist]

With hindsight, 'Queen Mab' is pretty heavy with metaphor. The 'fairy midwife' that helps sleepers 'give birth to their dreams' is ripe with implications for events to come; with the setting of the final chapters of Penitent as a holding space/womb.

[DukeLeto69]

One thing to keep in mind is that Sancour and Queen Mab in particular are extremely out of whack with Imperial culture to begin with.

 

In many places, Bequin notes that it's more arcane, more occultly-inclined, than the norm, or that many things from history seem to mesh there.

In fact, she goes as far as to claim that Sancour attracts that sort of confluence, possibly due to the Yellow King's presence.

 

It doesn't seem strange that people on a world like this - where nothing is as it seems and forbidden knowledge seems en vouge like nowhere else, ancient terran languages still shape location descriptors etc, a 10+ millennia old secret order is at work behind the scenes along with a major galactic player implied to be 10k years old, who is gathering resources to himself to unravel the language of creation - are strangely well-informed compared to the normal populace on other worlds, even Terra. If anything, I'd expect Terra itself to be extra tight-lipped outside of the highest echelons, attempting to maintain peace through ignorance.

 

I just pray to the high heavens that we won't see any of Dan's Perpetuals in Pandaemonium. This isn't their story, and they've long overstayed their welcome in the Heresy.

Good point re Sancour. Some of that is specifically called out in the book itself (such as old earth languages and that CCCP rocket in Pariah). It feels a little hand wave away to me but it can be explained by that I guess. I just cannot easily reconcile an Inquisitor on Terra knowing less than an astronomer regardless on Sancour!

 

For me it does go to the heart of the loose cannon approach. We the audience know everything(ish) but characters in the books (not just these books) don’t and shouldn’t. There is inconsistency across authors which is a bugbear of mine.

 

There is also what people know about the present vs historically...

 

-,True nature of warp

- Are daemons real

- Are Astartes real (even in Penitent Lightburn claims they are a myth early on)

- What is Chaos and the Arch enemy*

 

*this is a real mixed bag. Ppl in various books talk about the Arch enemy and traitor legions/marines yet they don’t know about the traitor Primarchs? What do they think/know about Horus?

 

Early in Penitent Beta says she doesn’t know if Angels and Daemons are real (she soon finds out). Yet she knows about loyal Primarchs, traitor Primarchs and missing Primarchs. I would say her Cognitae training (if that explains her knowledge, is full of holes and lacks consistency!

 

I guess if the astronomer and pals had been more “well legend has it that there were nine who stood and nine who fell etc” that could work. Like look at us with our naughty heretical myths and legends. But they are far more “this happened” - might just be my reading of it?

[DukeLeto69]

With hindsight, 'Queen Mab' is pretty heavy with metaphor. The 'fairy midwife' that helps sleepers 'give birth to their dreams' is ripe with implications for events to come; with the setting of the final chapters of Penitent as a holding space/womb.

Yes I think we may yet discover that Queen Mab (indeed Sancour) is not a normal place at all (heavily hinted at already). Almost like a mirror of a mirror - ie which is reality!

[b1soul]

I am not saying Penitent is disappointing. I am saying Pandemonium would be disappointing if

 

Valdor is a red herring/fake identity

[Roomsky]

Penitent – Dan Abnett

 

A book 8 years in the making – which I had the pleasure to read immediately after Pariah. This made for a rather jarring experience, Pariah was written in such a simple, conversational tone that reading this straight afterward was a bit of a shock. Abnett always writes well, but the style is significantly more expository by comparison. I don’t think it hurts the book overmuch, but I can’t say I prefer it.

 

A fair bit more is going on here also, appropriate for the subject matter but again it lacks a bit of what made Pariah special. That said, I imagine if Pariah was too much a shake up for you compared to Ravenor, this is more in line with the previous series.

 

Content wise, it’s all very interesting on both the character and plot fronts. We see a satisfying amount of Eisenhorn and Ravenor, and the dynamics between the retinues of each are very natural considering their present situation. I have to give Abnett a lot of credit for neither Inquisitor overtaking Bequin’s role in the story, while simultaneously appearing a sufficient amount (an improvement over Pariah, IMO.) It is of course filled with the twists and revelations you’d expect from an Abnett story. The only major shortcoming I can think of is that this story sort of takes the piss out of the Graels – they’re still dangerous, but in typical Abnett fashion his big threats tend to deteriorate as his stories proceed.

 

The new characters are intriguing as well, concept-wise if not as people. The College is a unique premise that I’m excited to see expanded upon in Pandemonium, as is Bequin’s new winged companion.

Mam Mordant / Lilean Chase

had neat things to say, but considering the build up to this character I can’t help but find their presence a little plain.

 

As for the King in Yellow, I’m not going to spin too many theories just now. Abnett being Abnett, this may be subverted at any time, but it will be very interesting if played straight. It would, at the very least, mollify my previous issues with the character’s seemingly pointless survival after a certain point in the fluff. To be honest I was more impressed by the scene proceeding the reveal, with Bequin navigating the King’s domain. Abnett was surprisingly successful in describing an alien, unsettling, sickening world. It’s probably what left the biggest impact on me as a reader.

 

Great stuff, hope we see the finale in the next couple years.

 

Must Read – as are all Abnett’s Inquisitor Books

9/10

[b1soul]

Yes, I even get a feeling Dan could take the middle-road in Pandaemonium.

 

Keep it somewhat ambiguous who the Yellow King is...spice it up with a bit of doubt without outright refuting the massive name-drop in Penitent. Ultimately resolve the Queen Mab and City of Dust arc without the Yellow King actually being caught and hard-confirmed.

[DarkChaplain]

My bigger concern is how an eventual confrontation will turn out.

 

Right now, the Inquisition is utterly opposed to the King/Valdor. They see what he's doing as a threat to the Imperium's foundations. They'll want to continue shutting it down.... but how?

 

Preferably, I do not want the finale to be a big action fight with Valdor and his Better Angels. I don't think that'd fit, and it'd feel cheap to stop him through force - if they even could. Ideally, it should be a battle of wits, of clashing philosophies, and reaching an understanding in some form. If Valdor stops, I want it to fail or succeed on the project's own merits or demerits, and have him acknowledge his own error rather than being forced to submit. Or, alternatively, turn things on their head and make his plan one that is actually positive but doomed to fail, with the Inquisitors coming around. Or if it succeeds, maybe it isn't even what it seemed in the first place.

 

Just no bloody battles. Bequin might be a blunt, but the climax shouldn't be. And fighting doesn't serve the level of nuance needed here.

[DukeLeto69]

So I don’t believe this needs to be in spoiler tags as not revealing anything about the actual book but...

 

Pretty sure folks know this (if interested) and a Google search reveals all!

 

++++

Pandaemonium roughly translates as "All Demons" or "all-demon-place"

 

John Milton invented the name for the capital of Hell, "the High Capital, of Satan and his Peers", built by the fallen angels at the suggestion of Mammon at the end of Book I of Paradise Lost (1667). It was designed by the architect Mulciber, who had been the designer of palaces in Heaven before his fall. (In Roman times, Mulciber was another name for the Roman god Vulcan.)

++++

 

I find that pretty interesting and chuckled at the Vulkan reference!

[DarkChaplain]

You heard it here first, folks!

 

The King in Yellow is actually Peeter Egon Momus!

 

He survived the purge aboard the Vengeful Spirit and decided to build some non-euclidian hellscape instead. But then it wasn't actually complete without all those angels and daemons to populate it as per his vision. So he took his robe and his wizard hat and made some himself.

[DukeLeto69]

 

I felt similar. The style Abnett adopts is delightful. And some genuinely beautiful prose. Certainly not what you expect in the average sci fi novel

It’s Abnett doing Dickens or, I think more to the point, doing Gormenghast. It does fade a bit about half way through Penitent but it’s so refreshing after what I found to be a sort of ugly sub-Whedon quippiness in the Ravenor books. Both are maybe examples of Abnett being more willing to switch it up in terms of style than other BL authors, even if it doesn’t always land.

Definitely a but Dickensian/Gormenghast as befits Queen Mab.

 

I think the “oldey woldy” style is also a bit of a nod to John Milton due to the Paradise Lost link (not an epic poem though obviously).

[DukeLeto69]

You heard it here first, folks!

 

The King in Yellow is actually Peeter Egon Momus!

 

He survived the purge aboard the Vengeful Spirit and decided to build some non-euclidian hellscape instead. But then it wasn't actually complete without all those angels and daemons to populate it as per his vision. So he took his robe and his wizard hat and made some himself.

Lol that is some obscure HH/W40K lore there DC - had to google the name!

[Knockagh]

It’s arrived at long last! I was beginning to worry my order had been forgotten. I got the limited ed but the cover on the standard edition is beautiful compared to the limited edition. Wifey agrees. Unfortunately I know the main spoiler but can’t work it out. It’s also going to have to wait until after lambing to get read. I get the feeling it not one to be read on a coffee break at 2am.

[Lucerne]

Just going to note that there seems to be an epic poem about the Heresy with plot relevance that shows up which is the extent of their knowledge, referred to as the Heretikhameron.

 

 

"Nine Sons who stood and Nine who turned. Nine for the Eight and Nine against the Eight. Eighteen all to make the Great Cosmos or bring it crashing down"

 

 

Mine was a passage from The Heretikhameron, or 'Days of Heresy', a long verse poem written circa M32, which recounts the War of the Primarchs. I never read it all, and it was tortuously complex, but I remember the grand style of the opening book, with all its epic images and its declamatory tones, speaking of the 'Bright Emperor', and the Nine Sons Who Stood, and the Nine Who Turned. Sister Bismillah used to read it to me in the dormitory of the Scholam Orbus. I think the orphanage only had the first book in a little yellow volume. Anyway, my tempering litany is not just those words, it is Sister Bismillah's voice reciting them. She is, I suppose, the most maternal influence I have ever known in my life, so her soft voice was an important part of it.

- Pariah

 

So yeah, Bequin and Medea literally know what they do because they had a chance to read like Book 1 of the HH series in poem format.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Lucerne