Speculation & spoilers regarding The Magos, Pariah etc

[Nineswords]

How do we know the Yellow King is a powerful psyker?

 

Though I think there's a theory he's Ahriman or Eisenhorn himself? Even heard Endymion Ra thrown around.

From the short Perihelion, though it is unclear whether or not the prodigious psyker entity is in the employ of, rather than the Yellow King itself.

 

Edit: probably not Ahriman. I should know because I wrote a 7500 word essay on why I thought it was Ahriman only to receive an (unexpected) email by Abnett himself saying otherwise. We shall see!

Edited December 11, 2020 by Nineswords

[Nineswords]

isn't it the dude from true detective? no?

Both True Detective and Pariah draw from Robert W. Chambers’ 1895 book The King in Yellow. Most certainly worth a read!

[b1soul]

Not Ahriman? Ha, well that's Ok. I always thought Ahriman would be a less interesting reveal.

 

I'm almost expecting the Yellow King to be revealed as a pawn or servant of an even higher power, to keep the mystery going.

 

Omegon would be another cool candidate. Using Chaos to undermine Chaos in a centuries or even millenia-long scheme would be up his alley.

[Lucerne]

 

How do we know the Yellow King is a powerful psyker?

 

Though I think there's a theory he's Ahriman or Eisenhorn himself? Even heard Endymion Ra thrown around.

From the short Perihelion, though it is unclear whether or not the prodigious psyker entity is in the employ of, rather than the Yellow King itself.

 

Edit: probably not Ahriman. I should know because I wrote a 7500 word essay on why I thought it was Ahriman only to receive an (unexpected) email by Abnett himself saying otherwise. We shall see!

 

That's Grail Ochre, one of the "Eight", isn't it? A youthful mind. That's not the King itself.

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Lucerne

[DarkChaplain]

Oh come on, we all know by now that the Yellow King is actually just Erda who is upset that the Big E never came for her after she left, and really wants to tease him back by figuring out his true name, because Neoth is certainly not it. :')

[Knockagh]

Keeping the mood going for penitent, after rereading eisenhorn and pariah I went onto Ravenor. First book in and after many years and I’m as convinced as I was back then that Ravenor is a much better book than eisenhorn in every way. Nothing wrong with eisenhorn but ravenor is just wonderful

[Fire Golem]

I think I enjoyed Ravenor more than Eisenhorn when I read them fairly recently too, and I love Eisenhorn. I put Ravenor off for a while for some reason but it was just fantastic. 

[DarkChaplain]

A big part of why I enjoy Eisenhorn more is the first person narrative, including the self-deceptions.

 

They're very different trilogies, though. Eisenhorn is about Gregor specifically, and cycles through retinue members with every book. Ravenor, by contrast, is a team book, not as much about Gideon himself but the people serving under him. Where Eisenhorn has huge gaps between novels, Ravenor's gaps are negligible and used more to move the plot from where it left off to where it continues.

[Knockagh]

I’m a great fan of first person perspective books. They let you feel great insight into the character and I do indeed enjoy eisenhorn. Dan himself argues the individual focus vs the team focus and while it’s a difference the drug story, the carnival, the city’s characters from low life drug addicts to planetary governance are so well written it just has me enraptured. Even the rogue trader and crew are more intriguing than eisenhorns. The world building is better, more detailed. Love it.

[Sothalor]

I'll say that Ravenor hits me harder in some ways, and that's due to the different focus of the series. They both have some fantastic worldbuilding.

 

Eisenhorn is an intimate journey with one man as he takes step after step on the path to damnation, all the while trying to hold onto the best intentions and clinging to justifications.

 

Ravenor is in some ways more of a conventional action-adventure/intrigue piece with more glimpses and perspectives of the "non-warfront" life of the 41st millennium.

 

What I think it doesn't get enough credit for though, is that the Ravenor series is about family - not blood relations, but companions and bonds forged through adversity and tight community. It follows a group of people, with all their foibles and quirks and disparate opinions and views. They often don't get along, they disagree, they snipe and banter, but when Land Raider track meets heretic they've got each other's backs.

 

Until, at last, they don't, and things fall apart.

 

In that way the emotional gut-punches of Ravenor strike closer to home; it's something I have more personal experience with.

[Knockagh]

Ravenor would make a much better TV show

[DarkChaplain]

I think it would simply make a different kind of tv series. Due to the team dynamics, I think Ravenor would have a lot more complexity going on episode by episode, whereas Eisenhorn is more focused character-wise but has a more complex look at the setting's good vs evil mechanics.

 

I will say though that I hope they'll have Eisenhorn as a narrator voice in the TV series, because it is pretty much required to set the tone and explain parts of the setting. Show, don't tell is a nice principle in theory, but there's just too much of a resistance against using narrators these days.

[Petitioner's City]

The adaptation might be very different from the text, it's a different media, different creators, different audience, different intentions. It can feature a loose adaptation of even the wider setting and that's ok :)

[DukeLeto69]

The adaptation might be very different from the text, it's a different media, different creators, different audience, different intentions. It can feature a loose adaptation of even the wider setting and that's ok :)

While I would love to see all ten Abnett Inquisitor novels adapted yo a TV series starting with Eisenhorn, I actually would kinda prefer new/original stories with the same characters.

 

Hope Covid hasn’t put stop to this, although Frank Spotnitz (sp?) has gone quiet on it!

[Knockagh]

Anyone else find the cover of the new ravenor book impossible to remove fingerprints from? Only giving it a dry rub but it looks pretty bad. Or perhaps it’s just my hands!

[DukeLeto69]

For xmas I got HH Malevolence black book and there is specific reference to the Golden Primarch, Lorgar. While I know he is referred to as Aurelian etc, I cannot recall a specific reference like “the Golden Primarch” in any other book though it is a long time since I read the First Heretic or Aurelian so maybe I am just getting old and forgetful?

 

Also as I posted many months back when I read The Crimson King there is a chapter where Magnus meets Lorgar in library and briefly discuss a book called The Amber Regent - the description of which is definitely an homage to Chambers’ The King in Yellow but I also wonder whether McNeill was helping lay some easter eggs for Abnett.

 

So again I am saying The Yellow King is Lorgar (even though personally I hope it is The God Emperor)

[b1soul]

Lorgar (or even Kor Phaeron or Erebus claiming to act in his name) being revealed as the Yellow King/Amber Regent would be pretty damned cool.

 

I'd be pretty let down if the Yellow King is just some radical Inquisitor Lord. Think there's a theory it's simply Rorken.

Edited December 29, 2020 by b1soul

[DarkChaplain]

Re-reading Ravenor, I want to highlight some things from the second chapter of the Lucky Space section:

 

Lilean Chase and her Cognitae were supposedly raided and shut down by Lord Inquisitor Rorken himself, about 80 years prior to Ravenor's first novel. She was formerly of the Ordos, and of the Recongregators philosophy that basically wants to force reformation of the Imperium by toppling its structures and playing cults and what not out against the Imperium to further their elaborate schemes.

 

Depending on whether Lilean Chase has gone full anti-Emperor since, it does not seem unlikely that she may still be following those aims in the present day. Likewise, a few years earlier, Molotch and co were still talking of the God-Emperor, and he was a graduate of the Cognitae.

 

Seeing how we are never clearly told of Rorken's own philosophies in any real, elaborate manner and usually only see him as a bureaucrat, I wouldn't put aside the possibility that Rorken may share some agreement with the Recongregators' philosophy. After all, at his high rank, he'd be privy to a lot of damning information about the Imperium at large and sees the grander picture. Things would click into place further if he let Chase slip through his fingers on purpose, and seeing how he was a mentor figure for Eisenhorn, who in the end orchestrated Gregor's presence during the first chapters of Hereticus, which then led to the Titan run-in, but mostly held a protective hand over the supposed Heretic Eisenhorn, I could see him as orchestrating a grander scheme here. And in The Magos, we see another attempt at grooming Gregor to their cause, which relies heavily on his past experiences in the trilogy.

 

On reflection, I wouldn't discount the possibility of Rorken being the Palpatine/Yellow King to the Cognitae's Maul, Dooku, Grievous and so on, with Gregor a candidate for Vader. Thinking further on it, Rorken's sickness during Hereticus might have been feinted precisely because he wanted Osma, the new master of the Ordos Helican, to clash with Eisenhorn to remove him while forcing Gregor into a corner. In the end he ascended to the rank of master, whereas Gregor was either going to fall from grace entirely or become a heretic whose word wasn't worth much at all in the ears of the Inquisition. Ravenor, his last real ally, was taken care of and now seemingly forced to go up against his master too.

 

Rorken would have the means to pull off a lot to support the Cognitae from high up above, and he has been in contact with Chase at least during the chase for her.

Even without being a heretic against the Emperor himself, the Recongregators might fit right in, and it might also explain why in The Magos, the Yellow King is in places presented as thinking too small.

 

 

In Ravenor Rogue, we find out in the "Then" prologue that Eisenhorn, with Ravenor, was part of the raids on the Cognitae, which then also led to Lilean Chase's supposed apprehension, which we also know was directed by Rorken. Rorken is also the one who eventually issues the recall command to Ravenor to cease his hunt for Molotch.

 

For one, this makes Rorken more involved with the Cognitae yet, on-page, and for another, it also establishes that Eisenhorn himself was involved with the extermination of the Cognitae while Ravenor was still his pupil for a good decade. The Magos as an anthology and Pariah have made it appear like Eisenhorn hasn't really had much to do with them in the past and him being so fixated on them would appear like a retcon, but it turns out that he was there all along. Now, we don't know what he did in the intervening decades, obviously, but we do know that at least as far as Ravenor's trilogy, he was hunting the Divine Fratery in a way, and was reported killed in action in Ravenor Returned at some point by the ones in the know. We obviously know he survived, but them being so aware of it, makes it look like there was an ongoing struggle happening behind the scenes.

 

I'd really like to see more Eisenhorn and Ravenor short stories down the line, though. Fleshing out their careers between milestones, and such.

 

 

Yeah, there was that theory, and I still hold it up as reasonably sensible and suitable for the Inquisition series.

[DukeLeto69]

I get the desire for The Yellow King to be an in-series (abnettverse) character but that can only be the case if the identity of TYK is not the BIG LORE THANG that Abnett needed permission for.

 

I mean it is feasible the identity if TYK is a muguffin (even including it in the back cover blurb) and the lore thing is something else entirely!

[b1soul]

Make it Rorken working for Erebus being manipulated by Lorgar...and drip feed the reader

[DarkChaplain]

I honestly hope that it is something different at this point. Heck, it could even have something to do with the Emperor-as-character, which Abnett has been doing in Saturnine in particular already, or the introduction of Erda. The Cognitae / various Inquisition branches, or the founding members, could also be entangled in something with far-reaching consequences that'd require permission.

 

On the flipside, I'm not quite sure why he'd need permission for Lorgar to be the Yellow King at this point, when even Codex/Rulebook fluff has mentioned that he's "active" again rather than meditating in seclusion. The big permission would be more in line with Lorgar suddenly returning to Emperor-worship, or dying, than him being the Yellow King. Something that either breaks the fundamentals of the character as presented so far, or kills off a potential future kit that'd bring big bucks. With Lorgar being a daemon primarch, though, I don't see dying as an option, considering that it'd probably involve a macguffin that'd likely also work on all his other brothers, like Mortarion or Fulgrim.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the big permission thing was more about the meta-universe and the implications for the setting, rather than a singular character's identity. Like the introduction of Erda, or the continued annoyances with the Perpetuals, Abnett has been known for just piling on to the lore and adding twists and implications that may or may not work out well in the long run. Something would have to be radically different this time around to honestly require him to petition the High Lords for this.

[DukeLeto69]

*macguffin

 

@DC good points. My biggest worry is that after 8yrs of hype this lore thing, indeed this book, simply cannot live up to expectations!

 

What do you mean by “Emperor as character”? I have not yet read Saturnine so perhaps when I do that will be obvious?

Edited December 29, 2020 by DukeLeto69

[b1soul]

Dan may have asked the High Lords whether he could reveal Lorgar via Penitent in light of the timing of a future Lorgar model release? If the scheduled release of Penitent is too early, it may not have the sales-boost effect of more closely timed releases? That, or having Lorgar in a 40K novel requires an IP greenlight? Kinda reaching here maybe.

 

I do think your argument that it should be something bigger than "Lorgar is the Yellow King" makes sense.

[DarkChaplain]

There are some things revealed about the Emperor in Saturnine (and before it in Master of Mankind, actually) that could be seen as ways to humanize him, away from the unapproachable, unknowable divine idol and more into him being an actual character on the stage in his own right.

 

I think what Dan had to get permission for is at the very least going to be divisive with the community, one way or another, and something out the ordinary that shakes the setting's foundations somehow, or reintroducing concepts that were abandoned in the past of Rogue Trader.

 

If I had to reach, it might even have something to do with the Sensei and Shamans lore, seeing what's up with the Cognitae, Graels, and Recongregationalism, or indeed Horusianism. After all, the Horusian Wars are based around the creation of a divine avatar for the Emperor to reincarnate into.

The Graels are supposed to be reverse-daemonhosts, a tool to channel the language of creation, to contain power that even a superhuman could not simply do without unravelling. That might very well fit in with certain Inquisitorial philosophies, as far as the Emperor is concerned.

 

As far as the Valdor-theory, I don't like it. He lacks the esoteric baseline to get involved in this kind of experimentation and work against the Imperium's institutions the way we've seen the Cognitae do - and the Cognitae have been active since before the Heresy, if we recall. On top of that, the way Valdor was tied to Russ in recent years, to the point of leaving Terra at the same time as Russ left his sons, spear in hand, makes it extremely unlikely for him to pop up here. He'll be back at some point, but not before Leman of the Russ returns.

 

Considering Penitent is only going to be book 2, I think we can expect the identity of the King in Yellow to be revealed alongside a big shakeup, but with a lot more questions and plot threads left dangling to speculate about further. Especially if we remain with Beta Bequin, whose perspective isn't really in the loop.

 

One thing that I do find important to consider is that any major twist doesn't just need to cater to fans on the meta-level for the setting, but also provide stakes and context for the characters involved. To the protagonists, somebody like Ahriman might just result in "Ahriwho?" instead of the shock and awe we might encounter him with. Doesn't make for the best narrative tension when the PoV characters are ignorant of the ramifications. And as far as traitor Primarchs go, most Imperials, including Wraight's Inquisitor, don't even know they existed. It's safe to assume that Beta doesn't know jack about them, either. And while I assume Ravenor and Eisenhorn to know about them by now, their knowledge will still be limited or even part of prohibited texts.

[b1soul]

The Valdor theory is definitely a long shot but I do like it. I'd like to think of it as...by now, he's a shadowy legend among even most of the Eyes of the Emperor and he'll only reveal himself when Russ does (which will be way down the line if ever). Perhaps Valdor recruits a select few Eyes of the Emperor and even mortals, like certain Lord Inquisitors, into his own network and a method to (maybe) contact Valdor for critical assistance is handed down to each successive custodes Captain-General, who doesn't know whether it would actually work. A lot to play around with here.

 

I'm obviously quite partial to bringing back primarchs and other ancient legends (with several key exceptions which should remain dead) a la a gradually progressing Ragnarok-style macro-narrative. Know that it's not for everyone, but it should be a money-maker for both BL and GW if they go that path at a measured pace.

Edited December 30, 2020 by b1soul