New Knight Castellan Revealed!

[CommodusXIII]

It'd be best to have a separate thread for that - perhaps a friendly neighborhood Moderati could assist with thread-splitting?

 

To answer your question, "allowing the use of Forge World models" isn't really a thing anymore.  There's always some element of tailoring lists based on the expectations of both players, but Forge World is no more optional than any GW model.  The exceptions being those with "experimental" or "beta" rules, which I don't think applies to any of the FW Knights.

 

Typically, FW and GW do not mingle their rules directly.  I would be surprised to see any FW models in the new Codex - we'll likely be relying on the relevant FW Index until Fires of Cyraxus finally sees print.  There may or may not be an updated Errata from Forge World to integrate the existing FW Knights into the new Codex mechanics.  That's something worthy of an email or post to FW's Facebook page.

[Stray]

This... has been a contentious issue for a long time. Just recently on a much less... 'friendly' forum a debate about FW raged for about 20 pages. It got pretty heated.

 

FW & GW are the same company. The reason they're divided in terms of brand is that FW's business model is made to order, resin models. Resin is a little more complicated/advanced to work with over plastic, and the way they do things means they are able to create some of the more 'niche' units that the Citadel range tends not to cover.

 

Both FW and Citadel models and rules are completely supported and intended to used within 40K. It's really just that they are developed by different departments of the same company. GW events will always allow FW models, and most tournaments will too.

 

That said...

 

There is a level of ignorance toward FW units that in someways is a hang over from older versions of 40K, in others it stems from the fact that because FW models are essentially made to order, you simply don't encounter them as much, so people are far more unfamiliar with what they can do. Once you combine that with the fact that FW manufacture some units like Titans...

...well, suffice to say there's a portion of the community that are 'uncomfortable' with them. They automatically assume that they are exceedingly powerful and will stop a game being fun.

 

This isn't true. Not at all. Actually, most of the problematic units in 40K these days really do come from the mainline plastic offerings. But the attitude persists nonetheless, and if you use FW units (I personally adore resin kits and the modelling opportunities they give me), you WILL encounter people that just won't play you if you bring a FW model to the table.

It's really a shame, but it happens.

 

These days, most people are really quite reasonable and realistic about FW so that attitude is slowly dissolving, but it's worth knowing it's out there.

 

(None of the above should be taken as criticism toward anyone with an issue with FW by the way - you play how you want to play and I'll support you all the way. It's just a hopefully 'realistic' summary of how things can be within the community at large). 

[Marshal Reinhard]

FW models typically are more expensive, not widely available (in the sense that you can't just go to any warhammer store and pick some up) and their rules are found outside of the main codex. On top of that they're also typically very powerful but then also made obscenely expensive in points to try counteract their reputation for being OP. This is the Forgeworld points tax, but despite of it, the idea that FW models are OP persists and has been pretty hard to get rid of. 

 

The introduction of heavier codex Knights will be interesting as there's potentially gonna be a gulf between those and the FW knights, who were last updated in the Imperial Armour Index (based no doubt on the stats and values of the Questoris Imperialis section of Imperium Index 2) Will FW update their datasheets because the FW knights could potentially end up in a real bad spot comparatively otherwise? All the while some anti FW hardliners doubtless remain... 

[CommodusXIII]

The history is understandable.  When Forge World started casting their version of the Baneblade, the Biggest Bads on the table were the Land Raider, Wraithlord, Carnifex, etc.  Superheavies were literal game-changers, and earlier Editions just weren't written to handle them well.  Nowadays, it's a bit silly to still be afraid of Forge World.

The introduction of heavier codex Knights will be interesting as there's potentially gonna be a gulf between those and the FW knights, who were last updated in the Imperial Armour Index (based no doubt on the stats and values of the Questoris Imperialis section of Imperium Index 2) Will FW update their datasheets because the FW knights could potentially end up in a real bad spot comparatively otherwise? All the while some anti FW hardliners doubtless remain... 

 

I still see some significant advantages in FW's rules for the Cerastus Knights versus GW's Questoris Knights.  I hope FW doesn't dumb theirs down to match...

[Stray]

The history is understandable.  When Forge World started casting their version of the Baneblade, the Biggest Bads on the table were the Land Raider, Wraithlord, Carnifex, etc.  Superheavies were literal game-changers, and earlier Editions just weren't written to handle them well.  Nowadays, it's a bit silly to still be afraid of Forge World.

 

Really well reasoned examples. I completely agree, and that's useful context too.

 

 

 

 

I still see some significant advantages in FW's rules for the Cerastus Knights versus GW's Questoris Knights.  I hope FW doesn't dumb theirs down to match...

 

I know what you mean. I confess I like the extra little flavour rules the Cerastus Knights get. Nothing game changing (especially given the points the cost), but fun and useful.

 

I worry more that we'll see points decreases across the normal Knight range, and the FW Knights remain where they are until at least this years Chapter Approved.

While not the end of the world, consider a Knight like the Castigator. It's basically a straight upgrade to the Warden (albeit arguably a relative minor one) with the Castigator putting out 14 shots to the Avenger armed Wardens 12. 

Now though with rumours of Imperials having access to less 'bound' Wargear via systems in the codex - much like what Renegades already have - why would you take a Castigator over a Knight with a pair of Avengers? 24 shots is considerably nicer than 14 - especially if a points decrease is attached for the setup, while the Castigator remains static...

 

It's just an example, and I'm not sure the best one either really, but you get the gist I hope :)

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Now though with rumours of Imperials having access to less 'bound' Wargear via systems in the codex...

 

Have we though? Or has it just been wishlisting that we would? I mean I'd very much love it if we did, but I don't recall seeing this put out there as an actual rumor...

[Stray]

 

 

Now though with rumours of Imperials having access to less 'bound' Wargear via systems in the codex...

 

Have we though? Or has it just been wishlisting that we would? I mean I'd very much love it if we did, but I don't recall seeing this put out there as an actual rumor...

 

 

 

I'm not sure buddy. I'm going from memory really - and in the case of mine it's very much imperfect :P

 

Either way, the example stands in so much that a Renegade Knight could pull it off I guess.

[CommodusXIII]

I'd be very surprised to see GW open up the Crusader's Dataslate like that.

[Stray]

I'd be very surprised to see GW open up the Crusader's Dataslate like that.

 

It's academic really. You can pull off much the same thing using Renegade rules, and really the moment we bring in a Crusader, you're looking at 12 Avenger shots, plus your second weapons output. With a points drop (which we're quite confident about), we'd still realistically be looking at several FW Knights IF we don't see them points adjusted too, and be asking 'why would I field that?'

 

I warned you mine was a bad example :P

[frosteldar]

Thanks everyone for your input and answering my question!  Sorry to derail the thread a bit!  

[LucidNinja]

Anyone willing to have a guess at $ for the new knights? I'm in Australia so I know a lot more than everywhere else but I think I have saved enough now

[Bat33.1]

Okay, I apologize in advance if this is not the best thread to ask a generic Knight question!  I am a new AdMech player and got two Armigers in Forgebane, so I'm seriously considering getting a Knight before the new army book is out and definitely plan on getting the book.  My question is regarding the Forge World Knight models - do people let you play them?  In the distant past of 5th edition 40k, it was a rare occasion when people in my area would let you use Forge World models, unless it was an Apocalypse game.  So, with the new Knight codex, will we be limited to the Citadel models, or do people let you use the Forge World Knights often enough?  I do understand that this is mostly up to local opinion, but I thought I'd ask what your experiences are as avid players.

 

To be honest the Forge World Knights are not great for their points cost in the game. They look fantastic but they are not going to be destroying opposing armies without a lot of other units supporting them. The weapons look intimidating, the damage they put out is in line with the current plastic knight but in general they have less damage output than the stock GW Knight. I’d be happy to play against one with a normal 40k army and be reasonably confident I could take it down before it made it’s points back. The days of every FW model being OP are long gone, every now and then something slips through - looking at you Leviathan dreadnought - that is strong for it points cost but a lot of FW is now overcosted but pretty models.

Last edition you could see a war hound Titan being played at 2k points with support but now the warhound costs more than 2k on its own so those days are gone.

So long as your opponent can take a look at the rules I’m sure 90% of people would be fine to let you run one.

[CommodusXIII]

Mileage will vary. I get a ridiculous return on my Lancer every time I field it.

[sneakybamsen]

My Castigator has had 3 games - the latest one it might actually have been MVP, but the other two it didn't do a lot except soak fire (second game it had nowhere to hide from a shadowsword, so it was a pile of smoldering metal when I finally got my first turn). Loving the model though. Don't agree that FW knights are better rules wise than Citadel ones, although more wounds, faster movement and so on are nice things. A fully kitted out crusader rips a castigator any day, I'd say.

 

I am indeed going to get the codex, never thought I'd be "one of those guys" but the improved selection knights are getting means I most likely will. Magnetizing them for transportation and flexibility in loadout, so I can field a 2k army or less, or just support my DA.

[Stray]

It's... situational really.

 

We have FW Knights that in the right game can and will output more damage than anything else in the range. An Atrapos in close combat for example. With an extra attack from the warlord trait, it'll even out damage (on average) a Porphyrons Magma Lasers.

 

But, you need the right targets for it to shine, and if you end up fighting a whole bunch of infantry say, you then took a 550 point paper weight. Albeit a reeeeeally pretty one

 

Honestly, I just want GW to think, and actually look at all the units involved in a force for a change. Don't just change half, don't just change some to drive sales. Support the game and cover everything that makes up a faction. The holes in the updates they put out are getting a little tiresome at times now.

 

I mean, we had a promise when 8th was announced, that anything with a model and rules in 7th, would be supported in 8th from essentially day one via the GW and FW indexs. Yet there are still units from 7th with no rules in 8th.

[Nusquam]

Almost every time I field my Atrapos it's just a 555 point fire magnet. It lives most of the time but very rarely will it get close to making it's points back. It needs another super heavy to hunt. And it needs to get into melee with it.

 

That's part of why I'm so excited for the Castellan. It's got an array of shooting. With Armigers potentially getting much cheaper I can likely almost effectively swap my Atrapos for the Castellan.

[Bluflash]

I've had more success with the Styx than the Atropos. It's still a giant fire magnet, with the same saves as the Atropos, and 3 less wounds but costs 50 points less. With the rad cleanser and grav gun it can deal solid damage to screen, and the volkiite gun is at least 5 shots of better krak missles.

 

With the Atropos, most of his power pistol shots went into 1w screen.

 

If you proxy, or have one about, it might be worth a try until we get more 3++ options in the codex. If we get a strat or trait for charging after advancing though, Atropos gets very scary.

[Stray]

I've had more success with the Styx than the Atropos. It's still a giant fire magnet, with the same saves as the Atropos, and 3 less wounds but costs 50 points less. With the rad cleanser and grav gun it can deal solid damage to screen, and the volkiite gun is at least 5 shots of better krak missles.

 

With the Atropos, most of his power pistol shots went into 1w screen.

 

If you proxy, or have one about, it might be worth a try until we get more 3++ options in the codex. If we get a strat or trait for charging after advancing though, Atropos gets very scary.

 

I like the Styrix quite a lot myself. It's a Paladin done right essentially, it just works, and is almost always useful.

 

I do think the Rad Cleanser isn't as good as it looks though. You may as well take it, but on average you'll be killing 3 GEQ or 1 MEQ with it, which is fairly 'meh'. It's crying out for a small amount of AP really.

[PiñaColada]

Anyone willing to have a guess at $ for the new knights? I'm in Australia so I know a lot more than everywhere else but I think I have saved enough now

Well a crusader is 185 AUS (or £95). My guess is that the castellan is going to be slightly more than that. Say £110. So maybe 215 AUS. This a complete shot in the dark guess though, but around there I'd say.

[Nusquam]

I'm in the final stages of assembly for my Styrix. It really is a Paladin+, but you pay for it.

 

 

Then again it's not hard to be better than the Paladin this edition... Rather than compete and fail crunch wise to the Avenger or Thermal it needs a side effect; like if targets take a wound from the RFBC they're reeling from the rapid inpacts and suffer -1 to hit. This would help the Paladin close the gap to be in melee because the 72" range is wasted on a knight that had points sunk into CC.

[Stray]

I'm in the final stages of assembly for my Styrix. It really is a Paladin+, but you pay for it.

 

 

Then again it's not hard to be better than the Paladin this edition... Rather than compete and fail crunch wise to the Avenger or Thermal it needs a side effect; like if targets take a wound from the RFBC they're reeling from the rapid inpacts and suffer -1 to hit. This would help the Paladin close the gap to be in melee because the 72" range is wasted on a knight that had points sunk into CC.

 

If they wanted to keep it really simple, maybe treat the RFBC like artillery and not require LOS to targets. It has the range already. The profile is quite a lot like artillery in that it's very swingy as to how many hits you can expect. Some indirect fire ability would give it a niche against the other two I think.

 

It may even cause people to take the missile pod more often as it'd have some synergy with the cannon.

[JeffTibbetts]

Is it just me or is there a new weapon on the Knight in the header art for the latest Regimental Standard? Looks like some kind of lance weapon with an angular shield or director? Also note the different tilting shield and face plate. Those could be artistic license but that weapon is pretty obvious. Is RS the new Rumor Engine? In fact, I think that's a new weapon on the pintle mount as well. Doesn't look like a stubbed or melta. 

 

https://regimental-standard.com/2018/05/23/thousands-liberated-by-sir-hekhtur/

[Marshal Reinhard]

Is it just me or is there a new weapon on the Knight in the header art for the latest Regimental Standard? Looks like some kind of lance weapon with an angular shield or director? Also note the different tilting shield and face plate. Those could be artistic license but that weapon is pretty obvious. Is RS the new Rumor Engine? In fact, I think that's a new weapon on the pintle mount as well. Doesn't look like a stubbed or melta. 

 

https://regimental-standard.com/2018/05/23/thousands-liberated-by-sir-hekhtur/

 

Hmmm "Sir Hekhtur" huh... that's a nice wolf motif on your shield... Knight's called Canis Rex? Reminds me of a recent rumor.

 

"Oh and if you like wolves, you will love the new knight character."

 

As to your questions that's definately a new weapon. Can't tell for sure on the face plate or the smaller weapon. But I'm pretty convinced this is our new special character

 

EDIT: oh and second regimental standard already? Knights must be getting close....

[derLumpi]

Is it just me or is there a new weapon on the Knight in the header art for the latest Regimental Standard? Looks like some kind of lance weapon with an angular shield or director? Also note the different tilting shield and face plate. Those could be artistic license but that weapon is pretty obvious. Is RS the new Rumor Engine? In fact, I think that's a new weapon on the pintle mount as well. Doesn't look like a stubbed or melta.

 

https://regimental-standard.com/2018/05/23/thousands-liberated-by-sir-hekhtur/

Shield and face is definitely new, I agree.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Found this on BOLS:

• The Armigers drop 60 points – The Forgebane had them at 223, which puts them at 163 points base
• Knights drop 25 points base – If that’s the case then that puts them at 295 from Index/Ad Mech codex values
• Avenger Gatling Cannon dropped 20 points – The Index has them listed at 95, so that would mean 70 points for that weapon option
• Knight Dominus Points are 100 more than Guilliman – Robbie G is 385, so that translates to 485 for the Dominus
• New Rumored Terrain Kit 90 points

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/40k-breaking-imperial-knight-point-rumors.html

 

New for me.