Codex: DW next week

[Irbis]

Funnily enough, if combat squads aren't FAQ, you can do some pretty exploity things:

 

5 veterans + 2 vanguards + 3 terminators - split off vanguards plus termies, give them 3 assault cannons and swords on termies, storm shields + plasma pistols on vanguard. Congrats, they are now troops, and you can deep strike them in enemy's face using DW stratagem. If enemy charges you, fall back and open fire with everything you got. If he tries plasma spam, laugh and tank with vanguard (I hate doing so with SS termies, they are WAYYY too expensive, SS vanguard is much more affordable). If they try massed small arms fire, tank with TDA. With 20 S6/7 shots you can scythe though pretty much everything, especially combined with +1 to wound stratagem and rerolling 1s to wound. Etc, etc.

[Charlo]

Funnily enough, if combat squads aren't FAQ, you can do some pretty exploity things:

 

5 veterans + 2 vanguards + 3 terminators - split off vanguards plus termies, give them 3 assault cannons and swords on termies, storm shields + plasma pistols on vanguard. Congrats, they are now troops, and you can deep strike them in enemy's face using DW stratagem. If enemy charges you, fall back and open fire with everything you got. If he tries plasma spam, laugh and tank with vanguard (I hate doing so with SS termies, they are WAYYY too expensive, SS vanguard is much more affordable). If they try massed small arms fire, tank with TDA. With 20 S6/7 shots you can scythe though pretty much everything, especially combined with +1 to wound stratagem and rerolling 1s to wound. Etc, etc.

 

Trying to keep up with this...

 

Is the rules exploit here that because of combat squads, you can basically detach all the more interesting models from a squad - leaving the basic Veterans behind and then send off a squad of specialists (terminators/ vanguard/ bikers) all benefiting from the special rules?

 

I'm guessing the Vets left behind will have none of the extra rules though?

[Finkmilkana]

First, my DS alternative to your 4 frag squad. 7 vets 3 boltgun/SS 3 SBs 1 combi melta, 2 terms with SBs and melta-fists, and a Vv with a plasma pistol. Puts out 3 melta shots, and 26 SIA bolt shots and a plasma shot when it lands. If in an assault heavy meta can chance a SB on a vet to a frag or infernus, if points are tight. Also not beholden to the 8" range of frags to be truly effective. Shells are fine but lets be honest you brought the frag for the auto hit. Otherwise its just a sidegrade plasma gun.

I’m curious, why combi Melta/meltafist? Shouldn’t they be much weaker against pretty much all targets than the frag cannon with hard shells (at deep strike range)? Especially the Melta fist, which costs as much over a power sword as the frag cannon.

[Prot]

 

Funnily enough, if combat squads aren't FAQ, you can do some pretty exploity things:

 

5 veterans + 2 vanguards + 3 terminators - split off vanguards plus termies, give them 3 assault cannons and swords on termies, storm shields + plasma pistols on vanguard. Congrats, they are now troops, and you can deep strike them in enemy's face using DW stratagem. If enemy charges you, fall back and open fire with everything you got. If he tries plasma spam, laugh and tank with vanguard (I hate doing so with SS termies, they are WAYYY too expensive, SS vanguard is much more affordable). If they try massed small arms fire, tank with TDA. With 20 S6/7 shots you can scythe though pretty much everything, especially combined with +1 to wound stratagem and rerolling 1s to wound. Etc, etc.

 

Trying to keep up with this...

 

Is the rules exploit here that because of combat squads, you can basically detach all the more interesting models from a squad - leaving the basic Veterans behind and then send off a squad of specialists (terminators/ vanguard/ bikers) all benefiting from the special rules?

 

I'm guessing the Vets left behind will have none of the extra rules though?

 

 

 

As unbiased as I can try to be, I honestly don't see this as a big exploit. Custodes are entirely ObSec, and if history serves... a lot of my DW armies were quite small in model count.

 

In a lot of competitive play this is a nice option however it can also work against you quite a bit.

 

Background wise I don't see a problem with the theory of it, or the make up of it. Last edition I could take 3 Termies for example, and in this one I can't. Splitting up various parts of a larger squad is a cool concept that -may- help deflect some of the model count issues the army is almost guaranteed to have again.

 

I mean how else is an elite Power Armoured force to have any sense of board control against 100 cultists armies, or those giant Nid footprints? I'm just being honest in saying I don't see this as an 'exploit' in the least. There are FAR worse things being done in the game right now than taking a vanguard or two, a few termies, and splitting them off of some vets for 3 small ObSec units.

[Moostick]

Thing to note, under Veterans datasheet, there is no DS rule for either Terminator or VVs, so they have no rule saying them can be put in reserve to DS in mixed KTs. Strategem will need to be used (I saw Irbis noted it, but for everyone's info)

 

Also, for my FC unit, it's a distraction and a threat at the same time, so it allows me to move everyone else up or set up without as much fear. Everyone who knows about FC will try to take it down, and hopefully SS and Term can survive a turn. It might be a complete failure, but I think it'll be hilarious if it works.

[Karhedron]

I have just arrived on this thread. Can anyone tell me if Fortis Kill Teams are Troops? I read back through several pages but I couldn't spot the answer anywhere. 

[Lemondish]

I have just arrived on this thread. Can anyone tell me if Fortis Kill Teams are Troops? I read back through several pages but I couldn't spot the answer anywhere.

They absolutely are. They're listed as "Intercessors" in the codex.

[Karhedron]

Thanks

 

So basically these guys are the best Astartes Troop unit and everyone will be running a Deathwatch Battalion plus a detachment of <Own Chapter> for access to whatever cool Elites/HQs etc that they want? :D

[Lemondish]

Thanks

 

So basically these guys are the best Astartes Troop unit and everyone will be running a Deathwatch Battalion plus a detachment of <Own Chapter> for access to whatever cool Elites/HQs etc that they want?

 

Yeah, that's probably going to happen. Can't forget about how useful the humble Scout is, though. 

[Paradogmatic]

Quick question -- anyone know if the Powerfist / Plasma Pistol option on the regular Primaris Captain was carried over to the codex? I haven't caught mention on any of the reviews I've seen but you never know..

[Lemondish]

Quick question -- anyone know if the Powerfist / Plasma Pistol option on the regular Primaris Captain was carried over to the codex? I haven't caught mention on any of the reviews I've seen but you never know..

 

Yeah, I'm about 99% certain this is an option that I saw in one of the review videos. 

[GrinNfool]

 

First, my DS alternative to your 4 frag squad. 7 vets 3 boltgun/SS 3 SBs 1 combi melta, 2 terms with SBs and melta-fists, and a Vv with a plasma pistol. Puts out 3 melta shots, and 26 SIA bolt shots and a plasma shot when it lands. If in an assault heavy meta can chance a SB on a vet to a frag or infernus, if points are tight. Also not beholden to the 8" range of frags to be truly effective. Shells are fine but lets be honest you brought the frag for the auto hit. Otherwise its just a sidegrade plasma gun.

I’m curious, why combi Melta/meltafist? Shouldn’t they be much weaker against pretty much all targets than the frag cannon with hard shells (at deep strike range)? Especially the Melta fist, which costs as much over a power sword as the frag cannon.

 

Lets the squad pull double duty, 3 meltas give you a reasonable chance to damage if not outright kill a vehicle with a bit of luck.  AP-4 is also substantially better than -2 when dealing with vehicles.  The melta-fists also allow the squad to charge into a vehicle due to 2 power fists.  Ideal scenario is, squad lands severely hurts/kills an infantry squad, meltas severely hurt/kill a vehicle, and you can charge another vehicle if in range, if not can also charge the vehicle you melta'd.  The thought being with the points you pay for a DW squad they need to be able to get work done in all phases, vs all targets.  Also the 3 meltas I put in out perform frag cannons on avg vs pretty much any vehicle sans maybe vehicles with invulns, or necrons quantum shielding.  This isn't accounting for high rolling and just out right killing or majorly crippling vehicles, that can happen with these type weapons.  If you wanted a FC in the squad I did mention removing 1 SB for it as an option depending on your meta.

 

I am not points averse to the frag either, I love frag cannons, its just a question of if it is a weapon that should be DS'ing, and I don't think it is, it needs to arrive to its target inside 8".  The slug fire is a nice back up option but its just a back up option, its basically a plasma gun.  you are paying for those 2d6 auto hits and should want to find a way to make those work for you.  I don't want my main game plan to be DS, shoot slugs... and then hope my squad is still there for my next turn.

[Irbis]

Is the rules exploit here that because of combat squads, you can basically detach all the more interesting models from a squad - leaving the basic Veterans behind and then send off a squad of specialists (terminators/ vanguard/ bikers) all benefiting from the special rules?

 

I'm guessing the Vets left behind will have none of the extra rules though?

 

The 'exploit' here is the fact Kill Teams make all non-troop entries in the book completely meaningless and obsolete. Maybe I am old fashioned but I can't see how this is intentional. You want Reivers? Why field them as fast attack when you can just attach 5 to mandatory troop choice, split off, and have Reivers with better version of ObSec? Sure, you lose sarge in most cases but thanks to stupidly limited equipment lists of everything not-veteran it's not a big loss, really.

 

Reivers lose all of two melee attacks, small price to pay for ObSec. Terminator sarge is usually bullet catcher anyway since he can't take heavy weapon, so no loss if you replace him with mook. Ditto for Hellblasters. Etc, etc. Really, save for dreads, every single model on table you have could (and probably should) be troop choice. I see people here make big unwieldy squads but I honestly think soon DW meta will be lots of min-maxed 5 man units split off from veteran/intercessor squads you have as troops.

 

 

As unbiased as I can try to be, I honestly don't see this as a big exploit. Custodes are entirely ObSec, and if history serves... a lot of my DW armies were quite small in model count.

 

First, Custodes have 3-4x less units on table. Sure, if you go overboard you can end up with Custode-like unit count, but if you min-max, you will easily have 3 units to their 1.

 

Speaking of min-maxing. Forget ObSec above. The big deal here is not the fact you can 'split off few termies', it's the obscene amount of weakness patching in form of franken-units. Think soup, but on the scale of individual squads.

 

Let's take for example 5x Terminator squad with three heavy weapons. What is their weakness? Price? Replace 2 of them with cheap Vanguard. Slow speed? Again, Vanguard model will make charges vastly easier. Lack of durability to high AP weapons? Slap SS on Vanguard, also deals with price problem as SS on normal TDA is very expensive. You can tarpit TDA unit making them useless if they fall back? It would be a shame if a single jetpack made them immune to this. Etc, etc, never mind the fact they are ObSec troops, DW min-maxed Termies also outperform everyone else thanks to being cheaper and vastly less vulnerable to various countermeasures. And that is before considering SIA, even...

 

Or say mixed unit of 5x bikes vs 3x bikes, 2x vanguard. The later has better speed, slightly less firepower but access to 3++ save and heavy melee weapons, can fall back, fire, and recharge, is still T5, is cheaper, has ObSec and is in general probably best DW assault unit for the points. Really, I don't know how DW meta will look 6 months from now, but I'll really be surprised if DW lists will have any infantry outside of Kill Teams, I'd even bet on someone devising killer Kill Team build that can be split several ways depending on who you face to tailor list on the fly...

[Lemondish]

I'd like to point out that you've forgotten one of the most valuable benefits of Reivers and Terminators: deep strike without costing you precious CP. You also forgot one of the unfortunate downsides of combat squading everything - smaller squads provides you half the benefit for every stratagem you spend to buff them. 

 

But at the same time, nothing there seems out of place or exploitative for DW. The whole point of this force was to be as flexible and capable as possible with a small unit count. Combat squad, Mission Tactics, all the Doctrine stratagems, the massive flexibility in unit building and wargear choices - all of these things follow the same theme of giving you a force that is reactive and flexible. All of this is being paid for by the higher baseline cost of DW troops units in the first place. I don't see this as being a bad thing whatsoever. 

[GrinNfool]

...

Alot of those mixed units do lose a bit for being in the kill team, the reivers you listed don't get access to their grav chutes, and the bike squad doesn't have a sgt for the extra weapon.  While you can make good kill squads I don't think it completely replaces normal troops.  There is also point considerations, you may not have 100+ extra points to pay for vets/intercessors just to bring biker/vv assault team or the reiver squad. 

 

I also think you over estimate DW model count.  I guess if all you did was fill your list with small cost squads at 2000 points you could manage 89 models with 2 hq bare bones, and no vehicles.  But this list would be pretty terrible vs anything short of nids, and even then... not sure how good it would be.  I think most DW lists will put out around 40-50 models at most.  You aren't usually playing the objective game with deathwatch.  In all my games with DW i have only had the game go the full 5 turns one time.  Every other game has been I table them, they table me, or one of us concedes because there is no way back.  DW is high firepower low survivability generally, and thats not a good combination when it comes to playing the objectives.  So I think your concern about ObSec is w/o warrant, and certainly jumping the gun.  Being able to break off Vvs and bikers together gives the units new life, and they REALLY needed it.

[Lemondish]

 

...

Alot of those mixed units do lose a bit for being in the kill team, the reivers you listed don't get access to their grav chutes, and the bike squad doesn't have a sgt for the extra weapon.  While you can make good kill squads I don't think it completely replaces normal troops.  There is also point considerations, you may not have 100+ extra points to pay for vets/intercessors just to bring biker/vv assault team or the reiver squad. 

 

I also think you over estimate DW model count.  I guess if all you did was fill your list with small cost squads at 2000 points you could manage 89 models with 2 hq bare bones, and no vehicles.  But this list would be pretty terrible vs anything short of nids, and even then... not sure how good it would be.  I think most DW lists will put out around 40-50 models at most.  You aren't usually playing the objective game with deathwatch.  In all my games with DW i have only had the game go the full 5 turns one time.  Every other game has been I table them, they table me, or one of us concedes because there is no way back.  DW is high firepower low survivability generally, and thats not a good combination when it comes to playing the objectives.  So I think your concern about ObSec is w/o warrant, and certainly jumping the gun.  Being able to break off Vvs and bikers together gives the units new life, and they REALLY needed it.

 

 

I think that low survivability is where Intercessors step in. They can contribute pretty handily to capping and holding objectives.

[Irbis]

I'd like to point out that you've forgotten one of the most valuable benefits of Reivers and Terminators: deep strike without costing you precious CP. You also forgot one of the unfortunate downsides of combat squading everything - smaller squads provides you half the benefit for every stratagem you spend to buff them.

 

Honestly? Nope, I didn't. I'd really pay 1 CP and deep strike tailored KT than pay mountain of points for 5 termies, only 3 of them really useful. As for the statagems, DW doesn't have points to buff constantly so I see at best 2-3 buffs strategically targeting units devised to make use of them (like dual gatling Redemptor, all-storm bolter veterans, or 3x ass cannon TDA) than to pay mountain of points for one huge unwieldy unit that can only be in one place at once, overkill whatever it targets, then contribute nothing rest of the game as it sadly footslogs somewhere else.

 

Also, upon thinking a bit more, combat squadding can do even more than just bonus rules - you can for one smuggle a Blackshield into TDA unit to give your heavy counter-assault unit ability to do heroic intervention pure TDA can't have. Again, that's not just a "flexibility", I can see competitive players abuse that in a way we haven't seen yet to bend any semblance of balance into a pretzel...

[Lemondish]

 

I'd like to point out that you've forgotten one of the most valuable benefits of Reivers and Terminators: deep strike without costing you precious CP. You also forgot one of the unfortunate downsides of combat squading everything - smaller squads provides you half the benefit for every stratagem you spend to buff them.

 

Honestly? Nope, I didn't. I'd really pay 1 CP and deep strike tailored KT than pay mountain of points for 5 termies, only 3 of them really useful. As for the statagems, DW doesn't have points to buff constantly so I see at best 2-3 buffs strategically targeting units devised to make use of them (like dual gatling Redemptor, all-storm bolter veterans, or 3x ass cannon TDA) than to pay mountain of points for one huge unwieldy unit that can only be in one place at once, overkill whatever it targets, then contribute nothing rest of the game as it sadly footslogs somewhere else.

 

Also, upon thinking a bit more, combat squadding can do even more than just bonus rules - you can for one smuggle a Blackshield into TDA unit to give your heavy counter-assault unit ability to do heroic intervention pure TDA can't have. Again, that's not just a "flexibility", I can see competitive players abuse that in a way we haven't seen yet to bend any semblance of balance into a pretzel...

 

 

Well, that's certainly one way to approach CP or squad makeup. I wouldn't even begin to state whether that's the best way or not - it seems so subjective and opponent dependent. I'm still not entirely sure how this is unbalanced given the costs, but I suppose only time will tell. 

[Moostick]

I agree with Irbis that Termies can be expensive right now, but I still believe they are meant to be 26 pts like SM (considering bikers, VV, Vets are all the same base cost as well, and 31 is suspiciously the same old Term cost).

 

Counting SB and power weapon, they are only 10 pts more for +1W, 2+, 5++ with DS. Right now, they're worth a 5 man unit. At 26, I think a larger unit would be a good support for the real hard hitters without breaking the bank in CP and, to a lesser extent, points.

 

That being said, come Saturday, everyone please ask GW about the Terminator points.

[GrinNfool]

 

I'd like to point out that you've forgotten one of the most valuable benefits of Reivers and Terminators: deep strike without costing you precious CP. You also forgot one of the unfortunate downsides of combat squading everything - smaller squads provides you half the benefit for every stratagem you spend to buff them.

 

Honestly? Nope, I didn't. I'd really pay 1 CP and deep strike tailored KT than pay mountain of points for 5 termies, only 3 of them really useful. As for the statagems, DW doesn't have points to buff constantly so I see at best 2-3 buffs strategically targeting units devised to make use of them (like dual gatling Redemptor, all-storm bolter veterans, or 3x ass cannon TDA) than to pay mountain of points for one huge unwieldy unit that can only be in one place at once, overkill whatever it targets, then contribute nothing rest of the game as it sadly footslogs somewhere else.

 

Also, upon thinking a bit more, combat squadding can do even more than just bonus rules - you can for one smuggle a Blackshield into TDA unit to give your heavy counter-assault unit ability to do heroic intervention pure TDA can't have. Again, that's not just a "flexibility", I can see competitive players abuse that in a way we haven't seen yet to bend any semblance of balance into a pretzel...

 

I still think you are making mountains of mole hills here... I can't think of a competitive list that "abuses" heroic intervention, and without a VV in the squad once you are in combat with that heroic intervention (forced mind you you don't have the option NOT to do it) if you don't kill the unit in your terms aren't shooting those heavy weapons.  Yes you can bring the Vv, too.  I am not saying it won't be good or useful, but you are trying to make it sound like OMGgolly geeBBQ THIS IS AMAZEBALLS!  TOURN LISTS ARE GOING TO ABUSE THIS ZOMG!  I really don't think thats the case... or even close to the case for that matter. 

 

Even worst case scenario... it gets used in tourns... is that really THAT big of a deal?  A conservative cost of your squad there is 320 points, assuming you just give the 5 vets that break off nothing but the 5 bolt guns, gives the terms 4 power weapons (not axes of fists) the blackshield a power weapon (otherwise why bother but sure save 3 points and don't bring it) 3 assault cannons and a storm bolter. for the terms too.  That is an expensive 10 man, and 5 of those are terribly equipped, the most common solution will be switch the bolt guns to stalkers or SBs, so add another 15 points for that. Don't see many people crying foul for 320 points for a 5 man 5 wound squad of boltgun marines, even with SIA, and a 3 assault cannon 4 term 1 black shield squad, even if you can heroic intervention.  There is a reason terms aren't popular right now, and gaining heroic intervention wouldn't fix it, even with 2 extra assault cannons.  Oh and if you are thinking TH/SS terms, its only saving you 1 point per term, and again... no 1 is complaining about those, and deathwatch terms cost 5 points more for some reason.

[Finkmilkana]

Lets the squad pull double duty, 3 meltas give you a reasonable chance to damage if not outright kill a vehicle with a bit of luck. AP-4 is also substantially better than -2 when dealing with vehicles. ... Also the 3 meltas I put in out perform frag cannons on avg vs pretty much any vehicle sans maybe vehicles with invulns, or necrons quantum shielding. ..... The slug fire is a nice back up option but its just a back up option, its basically a plasma gun. you are paying for those 2d6 auto hits and should want to find a way to make those work for you. I don't want my main game plan to be DS, shoot slugs... and then hope my squad is still there for my next turn.

Wait, did they nerf the frag cannon? The index version has 2 str 9, -3 ap, dmg 2 shots (only inside 12 sure, but at higher ranges the Melta can’t shoot at all).

That outperforms a lascannon by about 14% on average against every possible target and (assuming BS 3) deals 1.48 dmg against t7 or t8 with 3+. The Melta gun deals slightly more (1.55 dmg) against t7, but only deals a measly 1.16 points against t8 models (which are generally a worse problem to take down for DW). The Melta gun gets slightly better against 2+, but against everything that has an invuln the frag cannon again seems (sometimes vastly) superior. The Melta is also useless if the enemy positions their vehicles at least 3 inches behind the screen, which is not that unlikely. The only situation where the Melta really shines is inside 6’, but that is pretty the opposite of deep strike and far more likely to achieve from a corvus, as is a charge to make use of the fists.

[Lemondish]

 

Lets the squad pull double duty, 3 meltas give you a reasonable chance to damage if not outright kill a vehicle with a bit of luck. AP-4 is also substantially better than -2 when dealing with vehicles. ... Also the 3 meltas I put in out perform frag cannons on avg vs pretty much any vehicle sans maybe vehicles with invulns, or necrons quantum shielding. ..... The slug fire is a nice back up option but its just a back up option, its basically a plasma gun. you are paying for those 2d6 auto hits and should want to find a way to make those work for you. I don't want my main game plan to be DS, shoot slugs... and then hope my squad is still there for my next turn.

Wait, did they nerf the frag cannon? The index version has 2 str 9, -3 ap, dmg 2 shots (only inside 12 sure, but at higher ranges the Melta can’t shoot at all).

That outperforms a lascannon by about 14% on average against every possible target and (assuming BS 3) deals 1.48 dmg against t7 or t8 with 3+. The Melta gun deals slightly more (1.55 dmg) against t7, but only deals a measly 1.16 points against t8 models (which are generally a worse problem to take down for DW). The Melta gun gets slightly better against 2+, but against everything that has an invuln the frag cannon again seems (sometimes vastly) superior. The Melta is also useless if the enemy positions their vehicles at least 3 inches behind the screen, which is not that unlikely. The only situation where the Melta really shines is inside 6’, but that is pretty the opposite of deep strike and far more likely to achieve from a corvus, as is a charge to make use of the fists.

 

 

Naw, it still has that bonus at half range. 

[GrinNfool]

 

Lets the squad pull double duty, 3 meltas give you a reasonable chance to damage if not outright kill a vehicle with a bit of luck. AP-4 is also substantially better than -2 when dealing with vehicles. ... Also the 3 meltas I put in out perform frag cannons on avg vs pretty much any vehicle sans maybe vehicles with invulns, or necrons quantum shielding. ..... The slug fire is a nice back up option but its just a back up option, its basically a plasma gun. you are paying for those 2d6 auto hits and should want to find a way to make those work for you. I don't want my main game plan to be DS, shoot slugs... and then hope my squad is still there for my next turn.

Wait, did they nerf the frag cannon? The index version has 2 str 9, -3 ap, dmg 2 shots (only inside 12 sure, but at higher ranges the Melta can’t shoot at all).

That outperforms a lascannon by about 14% on average against every possible target and (assuming BS 3) deals 1.48 dmg against t7 or t8 with 3+. The Melta gun deals slightly more (1.55 dmg) against t7, but only deals a measly 1.16 points against t8 models (which are generally a worse problem to take down for DW). The Melta gun gets slightly better against 2+, but against everything that has an invuln the frag cannon again seems (sometimes vastly) superior. The Melta is also useless if the enemy positions their vehicles at least 3 inches behind the screen, which is not that unlikely. The only situation where the Melta really shines is inside 6’, but that is pretty the opposite of deep strike and far more likely to achieve from a corvus, as is a charge to make use of the fists.

 

Eh I mean T8 vehicles is russes, and LRs, baneblades, plagueburst, tyrannofex, monolith/obelisks? a few forgeworld things?  I don't see a lot of T8 unless I am fighting guard personally, could differ greatly for you obviously.  As far as the screens, I see it almost as a non issue?  If I am DS'ing I can choose to come in at a time that works for me... not my opponent.  If I can't kill the screen then that is the fault of poor list building, and not the unit I am DS'ing.  Frags wouldn't be much happier in that situation, 5s to wound the t8 4s for t7 and only ap -2, eh. 

 

The 3 meltas average 4 wounds and 69% of the time get a 5th.  The 3 frag is  4 with 47% of the time a 5th.  I also prefer the high roll potential of the melta, 2 wounds sneaking in will avg 7 damage (enough to drop a weapon profile on most vehicles), and while you can low roll the damage could also high roll it into 10-12 damage, and outright remove a threat.  For the frags to accomplish the same, it would require everything to hit and wound, and all 6+ saves to fail ( from the -3).  With frags you get the auto hit after the fact with the power fists you get to have additional threat to vehicles.  Also have the 2+ saves and extra wound of the terms + their SBs as other bonuses.  Your mileage may vary as usual with ANY list idea, as 40k doesn't happen in a math vacuum.  If you don't like meltas or they don't work for you, don't use em, I generally find good success, especially if you can get 2 or more in a squad.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Lets the squad pull double duty, 3 meltas give you a reasonable chance to damage if not outright kill a vehicle with a bit of luck. AP-4 is also substantially better than -2 when dealing with vehicles. ... Also the 3 meltas I put in out perform frag cannons on avg vs pretty much any vehicle sans maybe vehicles with invulns, or necrons quantum shielding. ..... The slug fire is a nice back up option but its just a back up option, its basically a plasma gun. you are paying for those 2d6 auto hits and should want to find a way to make those work for you. I don't want my main game plan to be DS, shoot slugs... and then hope my squad is still there for my next turn.

Wait, did they nerf the frag cannon? The index version has 2 str 9, -3 ap, dmg 2 shots (only inside 12 sure, but at higher ranges the Melta can’t shoot at all).

That outperforms a lascannon by about 14% on average against every possible target and (assuming BS 3) deals 1.48 dmg against t7 or t8 with 3+. The Melta gun deals slightly more (1.55 dmg) against t7, but only deals a measly 1.16 points against t8 models (which are generally a worse problem to take down for DW). The Melta gun gets slightly better against 2+, but against everything that has an invuln the frag cannon again seems (sometimes vastly) superior. The Melta is also useless if the enemy positions their vehicles at least 3 inches behind the screen, which is not that unlikely. The only situation where the Melta really shines is inside 6’, but that is pretty the opposite of deep strike and far more likely to achieve from a corvus, as is a charge to make use of the fists.

Eh I mean T8 vehicles is russes, and LRs, baneblades, plagueburst, tyrannofex, monolith/obelisks? a few forgeworld things? I don't see a lot of T8 unless I am fighting guard personally, could differ greatly for you obviously. As far as the screens, I see it almost as a non issue? If I am DS'ing I can choose to come in at a time that works for me... not my opponent. If I can't kill the screen then that is the fault of poor list building, and not the unit I am DS'ing. Frags wouldn't be much happier in that situation, 5s to wound the t8 4s for t7 and only ap -2, eh.

 

The 3 meltas average 4 wounds and 69% of the time get a 5th. The 3 frag is 4 with 47% of the time a 5th. I also prefer the high roll potential of the melta, 2 wounds sneaking in will avg 7 damage (enough to drop a weapon profile on most vehicles), and while you can low roll the damage could also high roll it into 10-12 damage, and outright remove a threat. For the frags to accomplish the same, it would require everything to hit and wound, and all 6+ saves to fail ( from the -3). With frags you get the auto hit after the fact with the power fists you get to have additional threat to vehicles. Also have the 2+ saves and extra wound of the terms + their SBs as other bonuses. Your mileage may vary as usual with ANY list idea, as 40k doesn't happen in a math vacuum. If you don't like meltas or they don't work for you, don't use em, I generally find good success, especially if you can get 2 or more in a squad.

Wouldn't DSing frag cannons wound on 3s since it makes little sense to drop outside 12" for either weapon? They're also AP -3 at that range.